RE: Driven: BMW M3 GTS

Author
Discussion

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Saturday 17th July 2010
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Asterix said:
leon9191 said:
People bleating on about 70Kg not being very much should try putting 3 paving slabs in the boot of their car and see what difference it makes.

Love it it looks really cool, would prefer a GT3 RS though.
How much difference does it make with a passenger? Average bloke must be around 70-80kg?
For my cars (800kg and 1380kg) it makes a very noticeable difference. For a 1650kg car, I expect it's subtle.

collateral

7,238 posts

217 months

Saturday 17th July 2010
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8400rpm said:
I know there are millions of people out there saying to themselves "Well I love my car to bits, I just wish that the driving experience was a bit more detached and automated."
hehe

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Saturday 17th July 2010
quotequote all
collateral said:
8400rpm said:
I know there are millions of people out there saying to themselves "Well I love my car to bits, I just wish that the driving experience was a bit more detached and automated."
hehe
Believe it or not, I hear this a lot from people at work who aren't in to cars.

sc4589

1,958 posts

164 months

Sunday 18th July 2010
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8400rpm said:
Whoop-de-st! That would have made it feel even more like a PlayStation game. If I crash a car like this in real life, can I pause it and restart the race?

My left leg and left arm were YEARNING for a clutch pedal and a gear lever to use. I don't care whether it's 2010 and not 1910. I like a car that has a throttle cable directly connected to a butterfly, and a MANUAL gearbox.

It is once again something to make people say "'ere, look I've got a set of flappy paddles like that Lewis Hamilton, changes gear in 0.00002101 milliseconds! Makes me lap Croft 1.340000008seconds faster than a manual!"

I know there are millions of people out there saying to themselves "Well I love my car to bits, I just wish that the driving experience was a bit more detached and automated."

I don't care! I like heel and toe, I like choosing the gear I want, when I want to, for how long, and being involved in the drive. If people like you can't see that, well I may aswell be banging my head against a brick wall. Suppose it'll save the older drivers cars for people that will appreciate them.
Been hanging around for months and joined to completely support this post. I am sick to death of flappy paddle gearboxes. I love manuals, and will never, ever buy some ridiculous 'F1 technology'. Gearchanges are an extremely important part of the driving experience- it can make or break a car's personality. The 206 GTi I used to drive was quite fun, except for the utterly awful gearchange. The Civic Type S I drive currently has perhaps one of the nicest gearchanges I've ever used, and as a result it makes the car so much more enjoyable to drive.

Flicking through a lovely, fluid manual shift will always be much better to me than prodding a paddle.

CraigyMc

16,326 posts

235 months

Sunday 18th July 2010
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drumm23 said:
8400rpm said:
My left leg and left arm were YEARNING for a clutch pedal
I was anti the flappy paddles too until I spent a day driving Audi's new RS5 with their dual-clutch system and it is absolutely tremendous. Far superior to the older "electronic manual" type systems (i.e SMG, R-Tronic etc.) for any sort of track work or even high-speed driving it was clear to me that dual-clutch is the future. You can start getting your left leg used to BRAKING now!

Edited by drumm23 on Friday 16th July 19:17
Doesn't it boil down to what you consider driving to be?

I define "Driving" to be different from "Operating a vehicle", personally. Dual-clutch flappy paddle gearboxes are very impressive in my experience, but I like changing gear for the experience. DCT-type boxes are faster (especially on a track) but they give the driver less to do and require no skill whatsoever.

If we made brakes and steering this automated I'd never go on a racetrack again. I don't see the gearbox as being any different - just that the line in the sand is earlier. I voted with my feet on this, since my TT was one of the early cars with a good dual-clutch option. I tried it, and found it impressive but boring, so ended up getting a manual.

C

CarbonM5

927 posts

190 months

Sunday 18th July 2010
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Guvernator said:
The thing I am still having difficulty getting my head around is the weight. If the likes of Ferrari or Lamborghini can manage to lop off 100kg from cars which are already pretty light to begin with for their track special like the Scuderia etc, why can't BMW?

The normal M3 is a pretty lardy car to start with, with all it's luxuries and toys. Surely it should be possible to lop a huge amount off this weight without even trying. I understand putting a roll cage in might add some weight back but only 70Kgs despite loosing the back seats just makes it seem like they really aren't trying hard enough. If they'd manage to drop the weight to around 1350kgs and improve the power to weight massively, I could almost understand the huge price hike.
Its where the weight is or isnt thats important though,lopping loads of weight off doesnt always work.

The reason the M3 is so damn good despite being quite heavy is because all the weight is pretty much central,coupled to low unsprung weight and a pretty much perfect balance-not to mention the incredibly stiff shell all consitutes to a great precise drive.

Why do you think M cars in general are so renowned for handling despite being heavier than conventional sports cars?

The concrete in the boot isnt a very good way of measuring the effects of weight since you have shfted the balance of the car.If you layed them on the driver and passengers lap's it would be hard to tell any difference.
Wouldnt advise that tough!




Steameh

3,155 posts

209 months

Sunday 18th July 2010
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Asterix said:
leon9191 said:
People bleating on about 70Kg not being very much should try putting 3 paving slabs in the boot of their car and see what difference it makes.

Love it it looks really cool, would prefer a GT3 RS though.
How much difference does it make with a passenger? Average bloke must be around 70-80kg?
Who needs friends/passengers when you can blow 116k on this.

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Sunday 18th July 2010
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CarbonM5 said:
Its where the weight is or isnt thats important though,lopping loads of weight off doesnt always work.
You could just about tell the difference in my Caterham on the road with a full vs empty tank, but take the spare wheel on and off the back and it made a massive difference. The reason was the location of the weight. Very noticeable.

jackal

11,248 posts

281 months

Sunday 18th July 2010
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Let's face it ... it's no elise is it !


BM should stick to making lifestyle 4x4's IMO, they do that very well


I also scanned 16 paragraphs and not one sentence told me what the car is like to drive confused

Edited by jackal on Sunday 18th July 20:57

FestivAli

1,085 posts

237 months

Monday 19th July 2010
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I'm usually a but ho hum about BMW's but with all the blacked out bits that looks amazing. Sounds like it might be rather fun to drive as well. I'd love to have a go on the Ascari circuit (actually, any race circuit). How about a manual gearbox?

RobM77

35,349 posts

233 months

Monday 19th July 2010
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FestivAli said:
I'm usually a but ho hum about BMW's but
The butt's the worst bit with that massive spoiler! wink

///Mike

862 posts

206 months

Monday 19th July 2010
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I think its absolutely wonderful even if it is only 70kgs lighter.

Its not just about the weight though is it. The e46 CSL isn't an awful lot lighter than the standard E46 M3 but the other tweeks make it an incredible car to experience on track by comparison. Having had the good fortune to passanger about 20 laps in a CSL around the ring I think the difference is immense.

I love a manual box but there is absolutely no denying that the SMG makes a massive difference on track. The fact that you can really focus on getting round as quickly as possible without having to take any hands of the steering wheel is a huge bonus. Modern dual clutch systems are far better than SMG now as we all know and if I wanted a car like this I would happily take one with flappy paddles. Its not about the Sunday drive in a car like this, its about being able to go that much faster than the standard road car around a track imo.

I would still take an GT3 RS instead but this would be a very close second and more elite.

E21_Ross

34,946 posts

211 months

Tuesday 20th July 2010
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jackal said:
BM should stick to making lifestyle 4x4's IMO, they do that very well
i thought BM were the best in the business at super saloons. the M3's and M5's have always been the class leaders upon release and are the standard all fast saloons are compared to. EVO and top gear both say the current M3 is the better car out of its rivals to drive, and the M5 is (just about) the most fun out of it's competitors, though the XF-R is about equal, but it's a good 5 years younger and really, is a competitor for the M5 coming out next year.

not 4x4's

teamHOLDENracing

5,089 posts

266 months

Tuesday 20th July 2010
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sc4589 said:
I am sick to death of flappy paddle gearboxes. I love manuals, and will never, ever buy some ridiculous 'F1 technology'. Gearchanges are an extremely important part of the driving experience- it can make or break a car's personality. The 206 GTi I used to drive was quite fun, except for the utterly awful gearchange. The Civic Type S I drive currently has perhaps one of the nicest gearchanges I've ever used, and as a result it makes the car so much more enjoyable to drive.

Flicking through a lovely, fluid manual shift will always be much better to me than prodding a paddle.
Have you actually driven a car with a decent dual clutch transmission, as opposed to a conventional auto box with paddles on the steering wheel?

chimpanzee

28 posts

166 months

Tuesday 20th July 2010
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And the point of this car is...?

Marf

22,907 posts

240 months

Tuesday 20th July 2010
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chimpanzee said:
And the point of this car is...?
Fun?

adycav

7,615 posts

216 months

Tuesday 20th July 2010
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chimpanzee said:
And the point of this car is...?
To make BMW some money.

Directly, from the sales and servicing of these cars themselves, and indirectly from the sales of other cars from their range due to the oft-cited 'halo' effect.

chimpanzee

28 posts

166 months

Tuesday 20th July 2010
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So to recap, it's not as fast as a GT3, it costs more than a GT3, is not as good to drive as a GT3, it can't be driven on the road like a GT3, it offers less technology than a GT3, it's heavier than a GT3.

And it's orange.

You know what I get it after all.

Mermaid

21,492 posts

170 months

Wednesday 21st July 2010
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chimpanzee said:
So to recap, it's not as fast as a GT3, it costs more than a GT3, is not as good to drive as a GT3, it can't be driven on the road like a GT3, it offers less technology than a GT3, it's heavier than a GT3.

And it's orange.
.
Different rather than better or worse, and it's the whole package that one has to consider. BMW's do make excellent track cars. On pure numbers, the Sierra Cosworth was better than the E30 M3, as was the 996GT3 to the E46 CSL.

Asterix

24,438 posts

227 months

Wednesday 21st July 2010
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///Mike said:
I would still take an GT3 RS instead but this would be a very close second and more elite.
More elite than a Porsche GT3 RS? Not sure I agree with that.