RE: Driven: BMW M3 GTS
Discussion
cuda said:
8400rpm said:
Way to ruin a brilliant driving experience by only having stupid flappy paddle as an option.
Completely ruined the CSL experience for me. A real drivers car needs a manual.
you clearly never drove it on a track then did ya?!Completely ruined the CSL experience for me. A real drivers car needs a manual.
t! That would have made it feel even more like a PlayStation game. If I crash a car like this in real life, can I pause it and restart the race?My left leg and left arm were YEARNING for a clutch pedal and a gear lever to use. I don't care whether it's 2010 and not 1910. I like a car that has a throttle cable directly connected to a butterfly, and a MANUAL gearbox.
It is once again something to make people say "'ere, look I've got a set of flappy paddles like that Lewis Hamilton, changes gear in 0.00002101 milliseconds! Makes me lap Croft 1.340000008seconds faster than a manual!"
I know there are millions of people out there saying to themselves "Well I love my car to bits, I just wish that the driving experience was a bit more detached and automated."
I don't care! I like heel and toe, I like choosing the gear I want, when I want to, for how long, and being involved in the drive. If people like you can't see that, well I may aswell be banging my head against a brick wall. Suppose it'll save the older drivers cars for people that will appreciate them.
The thing I am still having difficulty getting my head around is the weight. If the likes of Ferrari or Lamborghini can manage to lop off 100kg from cars which are already pretty light to begin with for their track special like the Scuderia etc, why can't BMW?
The normal M3 is a pretty lardy car to start with, with all it's luxuries and toys. Surely it should be possible to lop a huge amount off this weight without even trying. I understand putting a roll cage in might add some weight back but only 70Kgs despite loosing the back seats just makes it seem like they really aren't trying hard enough. If they'd manage to drop the weight to around 1350kgs and improve the power to weight massively, I could almost understand the huge price hike.
The normal M3 is a pretty lardy car to start with, with all it's luxuries and toys. Surely it should be possible to lop a huge amount off this weight without even trying. I understand putting a roll cage in might add some weight back but only 70Kgs despite loosing the back seats just makes it seem like they really aren't trying hard enough. If they'd manage to drop the weight to around 1350kgs and improve the power to weight massively, I could almost understand the huge price hike.
Guvernator said:
The thing I am still having difficulty getting my head around is the weight. If the likes of Ferrari or Lamborghini can manage to lop off 100kg from cars which are already pretty light to begin with for their track special like the Scuderia etc, why can't BMW?
The normal M3 is a pretty lardy car to start with, with all it's luxuries and toys. Surely it should be possible to lop a huge amount off this weight without even trying. I understand putting a roll cage in might add some weight back but only 70Kgs despite loosing the back seats just makes it seem like they really aren't trying hard enough. If they'd manage to drop the weight to around 1350kgs and improve the power to weight massively, I could almost understand the huge price hike.
agree completely. i thought it was a bigger weight loss.The normal M3 is a pretty lardy car to start with, with all it's luxuries and toys. Surely it should be possible to lop a huge amount off this weight without even trying. I understand putting a roll cage in might add some weight back but only 70Kgs despite loosing the back seats just makes it seem like they really aren't trying hard enough. If they'd manage to drop the weight to around 1350kgs and improve the power to weight massively, I could almost understand the huge price hike.
lose back seats, lose air con, lose big heated leather electric seats and exchange for light buckets, lighter windows, lighter exhaust system, no idrive, and it's 70kgs lighter?
i can't understand why it's still that weight? i suppose the huge wing must add 50kgs
the current M3 is quite heavy (but doesn't feel it...), but it's still lighter than it's competitors, but this GTS is not lighter than it's competitors.
at the end of the day, why the f
k should BMW care. they've sold them all. at a good price for them!!
DMC2 said:
sootyrumble said:
Guvernator said:
I'm not sure about this car. I'm usually a fan of M division offerings but I'm not sure who this car is aimed at. The M3 this is based on is a very decent GT car with decent handling, a good engine plus all the toys and luxuries you could need but a little bit on the heavy side for serious fun or track work but that's OK because the E46 was the same and then they released the CSL for people who wanted something a bit more hardcore.
It was more powerful, over 100kg lighter, better handling and sounded the mutts nuts at full chat but still retained decent levels of every day useability with 4 seats so that it could be used to go to Tesco's one day and then be harrying GT3's on track the next. In effect it could nearly be all things to all men and it was an example of the M sport division at the top of it's game IMO. Due to this, expectations where set very high at the prospect of a new CSL replacement. BMW would be mad not to wouldn't they?
However what does the GTS do? It's up on power but it's not significantly lighter. 70Kgs isn't that huge a reduction, especially considering that they've ripped out the plush rear seats. At over 1500kg's it's too lardy to be a dedicated track car and too comprimised to be used daily plus let's not forget the price. At over £100k it's £25k more than a GT3 and nearly the same price as a GT3 RS. I just don't get this one at all. I think I'll give this one a must try harder.
(PS Hello all. Been lurking for a while but decided to jump in with my first post)
You say 25k more than a GT3 but lets be honest by the time the GT3 brakes are uprated, the seats etc they will be around the same cost, also the GT3 is only 50kg lighter than the GTS but is a smaller car it is fractionally quicker circa .3 seconds on a 0-62 sprint and similar top speeds however in gear times appear to be much closer as the rear engined Porsche's allways perform well on a sprint due to traction, however i would love to see the track time comparisons as i have a feeling this GTS like the previous CSL will have very good handling. It was more powerful, over 100kg lighter, better handling and sounded the mutts nuts at full chat but still retained decent levels of every day useability with 4 seats so that it could be used to go to Tesco's one day and then be harrying GT3's on track the next. In effect it could nearly be all things to all men and it was an example of the M sport division at the top of it's game IMO. Due to this, expectations where set very high at the prospect of a new CSL replacement. BMW would be mad not to wouldn't they?
However what does the GTS do? It's up on power but it's not significantly lighter. 70Kgs isn't that huge a reduction, especially considering that they've ripped out the plush rear seats. At over 1500kg's it's too lardy to be a dedicated track car and too comprimised to be used daily plus let's not forget the price. At over £100k it's £25k more than a GT3 and nearly the same price as a GT3 RS. I just don't get this one at all. I think I'll give this one a must try harder.
(PS Hello all. Been lurking for a while but decided to jump in with my first post)
I think this is effectively a GT3 alternative in every way both great cars in my opinion of someone who has never driven eithor :-D
Chris Harris in evo said:
The brakes are the first on an M Car to match the straight line performance, a good thing.
It is about £20k too expensive, should be 100kg lighter and have a less offensive rear wing (although the GT3 RS is just as bad in that respect), but it seems that the brakes are fine.Great engine.........shame about the rest realy.
Seeing as this is effectively a bespoke, very limted run vehicle, I agree with others....
They should have taken that engine and shoehorned it into a wide arch 1 series Coupe shell with LOTS of weight reduction bits.....now that would have been more like it.......as long as they chucked that hideous rear spoiler in the bin.
Seeing as this is effectively a bespoke, very limted run vehicle, I agree with others....
They should have taken that engine and shoehorned it into a wide arch 1 series Coupe shell with LOTS of weight reduction bits.....now that would have been more like it.......as long as they chucked that hideous rear spoiler in the bin.
8400rpm said:
cuda said:
8400rpm said:
Way to ruin a brilliant driving experience by only having stupid flappy paddle as an option.
Completely ruined the CSL experience for me. A real drivers car needs a manual.
you clearly never drove it on a track then did ya?!Completely ruined the CSL experience for me. A real drivers car needs a manual.
t! That would have made it feel even more like a PlayStation game. If I crash a car like this in real life, can I pause it and restart the race?My left leg and left arm were YEARNING for a clutch pedal and a gear lever to use. I don't care whether it's 2010 and not 1910. I like a car that has a throttle cable directly connected to a butterfly, and a MANUAL gearbox.
It is once again something to make people say "'ere, look I've got a set of flappy paddles like that Lewis Hamilton, changes gear in 0.00002101 milliseconds! Makes me lap Croft 1.340000008seconds faster than a manual!"
I know there are millions of people out there saying to themselves "Well I love my car to bits, I just wish that the driving experience was a bit more detached and automated."
I don't care! I like heel and toe, I like choosing the gear I want, when I want to, for how long, and being involved in the drive. If people like you can't see that, well I may aswell be banging my head against a brick wall. Suppose it'll save the older drivers cars for people that will appreciate them.
I agree entirely. Flappy paddles are common place in single seater racing nowadays mainly because of the rate of deceleration (and for F1, possibly acceleration too) would make an H pattern shift obstructive. This doesn't apply in road cars because they're too slow, and also of course the pleasure in a road car is not in the lap time, it's with the driving experience. Having said that, I can see flappy paddles being good if implemented well, perhaps with a DSG gearbox. I do like to be involved in the process of driving though. I'd need to try all the various systems available today before I commented in the same manner as 8400rpm, but currently with the cars that I have tried (on road and track), I prefer having three pedals and a gearstick.
I just can't understand why anyone would choose it over a GT3 RS. The Porsche has better power to weight, sounds better, handles better, stops better, is based on a sports car not a motorway monkey, and has all the heritage you could ever need. To top it off, it looks right in ghastly colours, rather than looking try hard, max powerish. The Beemer's spoiler, frankly, ruins it for me – I always thought the standards M3 looked a bit wimpy, but this is wrong on a different scale. Meanwhile, the GT3 RS pulls off the 'took the wrong turn at the pitlane' look with ease. In 30 years it will look like a classic racer, the BMW will look like its been tuned by a neanderthal with a penchant for carbon.
Rusty, have you heard them both in real life?
How is the BMW's spoiler any worse than the Porsche's?
You are of course correct that BMW has no racing pedigree.
Both are great cars.
How is the BMW's spoiler any worse than the Porsche's?
You are of course correct that BMW has no racing pedigree.
Both are great cars.
Zod said:
Rusty, have you heard them both in real life?
How is the BMW's spoiler any worse than the Porsche's?
You are of course correct that BMW has no racing pedigree.
Both are great cars.
If you'd said the BM's got a better gearbox I'd of had a case to answer, even though I'd take the manual, other than that - I stand by everything. Yes, I've heard them both in real life (er, on youtube) and yes I think the Porsche's flat six sounds better - it's just pure mechanical noise. Does the BMW have racing heritage? Yes it does (I love the 3.0 csl). Does it have this racing heritage http://porschebahn.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/mon... No it doesn't. As far as the spoiler goes it looks cobbled on, rather than an integral part of the car. Trust me, in ten years time it’ll look tack. I agree with your last point, I just think the Porsche is far greater.How is the BMW's spoiler any worse than the Porsche's?
You are of course correct that BMW has no racing pedigree.
Both are great cars.
Zod said:
Rusty, have you heard them both in real life?
How is the BMW's spoiler any worse than the Porsche's?
You are of course correct that BMW has no racing pedigree.
Both are great cars.
Could BMW have sold a 1000 units at £116K?How is the BMW's spoiler any worse than the Porsche's?
You are of course correct that BMW has no racing pedigree.
Both are great cars.
Rusty-C said:
Zod said:
Rusty, have you heard them both in real life?
How is the BMW's spoiler any worse than the Porsche's?
You are of course correct that BMW has no racing pedigree.
Both are great cars.
If you'd said the BM's got a better gearbox I'd of had a case to answer, even though I'd take the manual, other than that - I stand by everything. Yes, I've heard them both in real life (er, on youtube) and yes I think the Porsche's flat six sounds better - it's just pure mechanical noise. Does the BMW have racing heritage? Yes it does (I love the 3.0 csl). Does it have this racing heritage http://porschebahn.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/mon... No it doesn't. As far as the spoiler goes it looks cobbled on, rather than an integral part of the car. Trust me, in ten years time it’ll look tack. I agree with your last point, I just think the Porsche is far greater.How is the BMW's spoiler any worse than the Porsche's?
You are of course correct that BMW has no racing pedigree.
Both are great cars.
I saw a GT3 RS this morning. Didn't really hear it over my own engine (I was accelerating from a traffic light).
It looked great. The spoiler looked tacked on, just liek the one on the GTS.
Zod said:
Rusty-C said:
Zod said:
Rusty, have you heard them both in real life?
How is the BMW's spoiler any worse than the Porsche's?
You are of course correct that BMW has no racing pedigree.
Both are great cars.
If you'd said the BM's got a better gearbox I'd of had a case to answer, even though I'd take the manual, other than that - I stand by everything. Yes, I've heard them both in real life (er, on youtube) and yes I think the Porsche's flat six sounds better - it's just pure mechanical noise. Does the BMW have racing heritage? Yes it does (I love the 3.0 csl). Does it have this racing heritage http://porschebahn.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/mon... No it doesn't. As far as the spoiler goes it looks cobbled on, rather than an integral part of the car. Trust me, in ten years time it’ll look tack. I agree with your last point, I just think the Porsche is far greater.How is the BMW's spoiler any worse than the Porsche's?
You are of course correct that BMW has no racing pedigree.
Both are great cars.
I saw a GT3 RS this morning. Didn't really hear it over my own engine (I was accelerating from a traffic light).
It looked great. The spoiler looked tacked on, just liek the one on the GTS.
isn't the spoiler straight off a race car?
Zod said:
Rusty-C said:
Zod said:
Rusty, have you heard them both in real life?
How is the BMW's spoiler any worse than the Porsche's?
You are of course correct that BMW has no racing pedigree.
Both are great cars.
'I don't really think youtube gives a basis to judge the sound.'How is the BMW's spoiler any worse than the Porsche's?
You are of course correct that BMW has no racing pedigree.
Both are great cars.
doesn't it? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRvcobW-LN4
Edited by Rusty-C on Friday 16th July 14:45
8400rpm said:
My left leg and left arm were YEARNING for a clutch pedal
I was anti the flappy paddles too until I spent a day driving Audi's new RS5 with their dual-clutch system and it is absolutely tremendous. Far superior to the older "electronic manual" type systems (i.e SMG, R-Tronic etc.) for any sort of track work or even high-speed driving it was clear to me that dual-clutch is the future. You can start getting your left leg used to BRAKING now!Edited by drumm23 on Friday 16th July 19:17
chippy17 said:
Zod said:
Rusty-C said:
Zod said:
Rusty, have you heard them both in real life?
How is the BMW's spoiler any worse than the Porsche's?
You are of course correct that BMW has no racing pedigree.
Both are great cars.
If you'd said the BM's got a better gearbox I'd of had a case to answer, even though I'd take the manual, other than that - I stand by everything. Yes, I've heard them both in real life (er, on youtube) and yes I think the Porsche's flat six sounds better - it's just pure mechanical noise. Does the BMW have racing heritage? Yes it does (I love the 3.0 csl). Does it have this racing heritage http://porschebahn.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/mon... No it doesn't. As far as the spoiler goes it looks cobbled on, rather than an integral part of the car. Trust me, in ten years time it’ll look tack. I agree with your last point, I just think the Porsche is far greater.How is the BMW's spoiler any worse than the Porsche's?
You are of course correct that BMW has no racing pedigree.
Both are great cars.
I saw a GT3 RS this morning. Didn't really hear it over my own engine (I was accelerating from a traffic light).
It looked great. The spoiler looked tacked on, just liek the one on the GTS.
isn't the spoiler straight off a race car?
Both sound great to me on youtube.
If it's a pure track tool, I'd spend £45k on a Caterham R500 and pocket the rest of the change.
I'm surprised BMW didn't get the Lexus 'big head' syndrome like the LF-A and slap a £1million price tag on the M3 GTS..
There's going to be an influx of regular E92 M3 soon to be adorned with the muppet chav rear spoiler all over the roads.
I'm surprised BMW didn't get the Lexus 'big head' syndrome like the LF-A and slap a £1million price tag on the M3 GTS..
There's going to be an influx of regular E92 M3 soon to be adorned with the muppet chav rear spoiler all over the roads.
leon9191 said:
People bleating on about 70Kg not being very much should try putting 3 paving slabs in the boot of their car and see what difference it makes.
Love it it looks really cool, would prefer a GT3 RS though.
How much difference does it make with a passenger? Average bloke must be around 70-80kg?Love it it looks really cool, would prefer a GT3 RS though.
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