Winter Tyres

[Tallbut Buxomly]

Ozzie Osmond said:

IMO for 99% of the UK population winter tyres are an utter and complete waste of time. Just buy some decent tyres and use them all year round.

But at the end of the day it's your money.....

Ahh yes another one of the clueless ones. Winter tyres should be mandatory for all drivers in the uk during normal winters. The difference in the performance of winter tyres vs all season is noticeable at anything under around 5deg.

I never used to think there was much point till i ran a set lsat winter and i am now converted.

[Larry Dickman]

No they shouldn't be mandatory, why do people think everything should be mandatory all the time? I don't need or want winter tyres on the daily driver I have at the moment. If I had a rear wheel drive barge then having winter tyres would definitely be a consideration but it's for me to decide & not you, the government or anyone else. Stop trying to make everything mandatory ffs.

[zx10ben]

Larry Dickman said:

No they shouldn't be mandatory, why do people think everything should be mandatory all the time? I don't need or want winter tyres on the daily driver I have at the moment. If I had a rear wheel drive barge then having winter tyres would definitely be a consideration but it's for me to decide & not you, the government or anyone else. Stop trying to make everything mandatory ffs.

Here, Here! This mandatory bks! It was a lot better riding motorbikes before that dam government made us wear helmets! Likewise, why the hell should I have to wear a seatbelt?! Geez who do they think they are making us do things that could and do make us safer!

As previously said, winter tyres are NOT SNOW tyres! They are cold weather tyres, anything below 7c and they will perform better than brand new summer tyres.
In germany it's not mandatory to use winter tyres but if you do end up having a crash and the police judge that the accident could have been avoided had you been on winter tyres, then the majority of the blame will land on you.
Bottom line, Winter tyres would be of benefit in the UK for the best part of the year as even their wet handling rivals that of summers.

Edited by zx10ben on Wednesday 15th September 08:14

[HellDiver]

Ozzie Osmond said:

IMO for 99% of the UK population winter tyres are an utter and complete waste of time. Just buy some decent tyres and use them all year round.

You say this in every winter tyre thread. Saying it over and over doesn't make it right.

I'd bet that if winters were mandatory in the UK between October and April, you'd see a significant reduction in minor school run bumps and bashes.

Perhaps you need to do a significant amount of urban driving, then you'd clearly see how it all goes horribly wrong in frosty mornings when people just don't have the grip they expect.

[reggie82]

I have an e36 and found it useless in the snow last year on Summer Tyres.

I have now bought some Winter tyres, and really looking forward to testing them out this year (praying we get some more snow!).

The way I see it is that while my Winter tyres are on the car, my Summer tyres aren't being worn. I'm still going to use the same amount of rubber per year, so the tyres haven't really cost me any extra then using my Summer tyres all year (ok the Winters will wear a bit faster, but it won't make much of a difference).

The only true extra cost I've incurred is £80 on a set of spare alloys, but even then I'll probably be able to sell them on for £80 when I've finished with them.

So overall it's not actually that expensive to run Summer and Winter tyres, but as Winter tyres will give you more grip throughout most of the Winter (not just when it snows), it seems good value for money.

Especially if they save me having an accident.

[Larry Dickman]

zx10ben said:

Larry Dickman said:

No they shouldn't be mandatory, why do people think everything should be mandatory all the time? I don't need or want winter tyres on the daily driver I have at the moment. If I had a rear wheel drive barge then having winter tyres would definitely be a consideration but it's for me to decide & not you, the government or anyone else. Stop trying to make everything mandatory ffs.

Here, Here! This mandatory bks! It was a lot better riding motorbikes before that dam government made us wear helmets! Likewise, why the hell should I have to wear a seatbelt?! Geez who do they think they are making us do things that could and do make us safer!

As previously said, winter tyres are NOT SNOW tyres! They are cold weather tyres, anything below 7c and they will perform better than brand new summer tyres.
In germany it's not mandatory to use winter tyres but if you do end up having a crash and the police judge that the accident could have been avoided had you been on winter tyres, then the majority of the blame will land on you.
Bottom line, Winter tyres would be of benefit in the UK for the best part of the year as even their wet handling rivals that of summers.

Really. However much safer you think you are there are too many variables with tyres. 3.5mm of tread is probably not as safe as 8mm of tread, cheap tyres are probably not as safe as expensive tyres, summer tyres are probably not as safe as all year tyres (if there's any difference). Maybe it should be mandatory for us all to buy an expensive set of new tyres every Monday just so we know we're as safe as we possibly can be.

Also for some people all winter tyres will do is lull them into a false sense of security, some people are thick & they'll think that as they have winter tyres they'll be immune from bad weather & carry on driving the same way as they always do regardless.

[reggie82]

Larry Dickman said:

In germany it's not mandatory to use winter tyres but if you do end up having a crash and the police judge that the accident could have been avoided had you been on winter tyres, then the majority of the blame will land on you.

I think it is mandatory in Germany to use Winter tyres if the conditions dictate they are neccessary.

AFAIK there is no law that says you have to use Winter Tyres during the Winter per se, but if you are using Summer tyres in the snow/ice you will get fined (if caught of course).

[HellDiver]

reggie82 said:

Larry Dickman said:

In germany it's not mandatory to use winter tyres but if you do end up having a crash and the police judge that the accident could have been avoided had you been on winter tyres, then the majority of the blame will land on you.

I think it is mandatory in Germany to use Winter tyres if the conditions dictate they are neccessary.

AFAIK there is no law that says you have to use Winter Tyres during the Winter per se, but if you are using Summer tyres in the snow/ice you will get fined (if caught of course).

I think you'll find it is law.

[reggie82]

HellDiver said:

reggie82 said:

Larry Dickman said:

In germany it's not mandatory to use winter tyres but if you do end up having a crash and the police judge that the accident could have been avoided had you been on winter tyres, then the majority of the blame will land on you.

I think it is mandatory in Germany to use Winter tyres if the conditions dictate they are neccessary.

AFAIK there is no law that says you have to use Winter Tyres during the Winter per se, but if you are using Summer tyres in the snow/ice you will get fined (if caught of course).

I think you'll find it is law.

Care to elaborate? Are you agreeing with me, or saying it's the law to have them on in the Winter regardless of the conditions?

[HellDiver]

http://www.edwintertires.com/eurolaws.htm

PARTS of Germany you MUST run winters, or you're scuppered - penalty points, fines and insurance voiding.

[reggie82]

HellDiver said:

http://www.edwintertires.com/eurolaws.htm

PARTS of Germany you MUST run winters, or you're scuppered - penalty points, fines and insurance voiding.

That says the same as I did, so you are agreeing with me then.

[monthefish]

belleair302 said:

Their wear rate is high

In colder conditions their wear rate is better than a summer tyre, due to the fact that in the colder conditons the rubber on the summer tyre becomes more brittle and fractures more easily.

[reggie82]

monthefish said:

belleair302 said:

Their wear rate is high

In colder conditions their wear rate is better than a summer tyre, due to the fact that in the colder conditons the rubber on the summer tyre becomes more brittle and fractures more easily.

That's interesting to know, I'd just presumed in colder conditions the Summer tyres would harden and wouldn't wear as fast.

[monthefish]

HellDiver said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

IMO for 99% of the UK population winter tyres are an utter and complete waste of time. Just buy some decent tyres and use them all year round.

You say this in every winter tyre thread. Saying it over and over doesn't make it right.

Taken from (one of) last years Winter Tyres thread.

Ozzie Osmond said:

I don't understand the use of summer and winter tyres in UK. Yes, summer are better when it's hot and winter are bewtter whan it's cold. But since the great British climate can readily deliver winter in August or summer in February you'd need to be switching tyres on a daily or hourly basis. Season tyres are really meant for places like Finland or Spain, not UK.

monthefish said:

this was last winter (2008) - two seperate days.






These photos were taken about a week after the initial heavy snowfall, which lasted in total around 6 weeks (never really got above freezing through the day, down to -16 at night). The first pic was taken about 5pm, after a full days traffic on the road. You can see that it has hardly cleared at all.

Edited by monthefish on Wednesday 15th September 14:49

[monthefish]

reggie82 said:

monthefish said:

belleair302 said:

Their wear rate is high

In colder conditions their wear rate is better than a summer tyre, due to the fact that in the colder conditons the rubber on the summer tyre becomes more brittle and fractures more easily.

That's interesting to know, I'd just presumed in colder conditions the Summer tyres would harden and wouldn't wear as fast.

According to Evo (I don't have any science to back this up).

[reggie82]

monthefish said:

reggie82 said:

monthefish said:

belleair302 said:

Their wear rate is high

In colder conditions their wear rate is better than a summer tyre, due to the fact that in the colder conditons the rubber on the summer tyre becomes more brittle and fractures more easily.

That's interesting to know, I'd just presumed in colder conditions the Summer tyres would harden and wouldn't wear as fast.

According to Evo (I don't have any science to back this up).

Well I have even less science to back mine up so I'm sure you're right

[F i F]

Tallbut Buxomly said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

IMO for 99% of the UK population winter tyres are an utter and complete waste of time. Just buy some decent tyres and use them all year round.

But at the end of the day it's your money.....

Ahh yes another one of the clueless ones. Winter tyres should be mandatory for all drivers in the uk during normal winters. The difference in the performance of winter tyres vs all season is noticeable at anything under around 5deg.

I never used to think there was much point till i ran a set lsat winter and i am now converted.

TB, word in your shell-like, I think there is enough evidence on other threads that even I have registered that particular poster as a bit of a troll on cold weather tyre threads. Afraid I bit once.

To be honest I'm not sure on the mandatory bit. The devil is in the detail. It could be that a particular user has a profile, eg area, climate, type of use, low mileage, type of vehicle, ability to stay off roads when snow falls, that they can get by with care on normal tyres. The emphasis is quite deliberate as are all the caveats.

But in essence apart from those small caveats I agree. For years I just thought winters were for my vehicles in the frozen North and whenever I used one in UK it was awful, simply because I was using extreme Nordic design rubber. First time I used a vehicle on European friction tyres was amazed how good they were, even on snow and ice. Since then a convert.

One thing I'd add, is that my main UK car actually uses less fuel on the winters. Been consistent over a few years now, brim to brim monitoring.

[monthefish]

F i F said:

Tallbut Buxomly said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

IMO for 99% of the UK population winter tyres are an utter and complete waste of time. Just buy some decent tyres and use them all year round.

But at the end of the day it's your money.....

Ahh yes another one of the clueless ones. Winter tyres should be mandatory for all drivers in the uk during normal winters. The difference in the performance of winter tyres vs all season is noticeable at anything under around 5deg.

I never used to think there was much point till i ran a set lsat winter and i am now converted.

TB, word in your shell-like, I think there is enough evidence on other threads that even I have registered that particular poster as a bit of a troll on cold weather tyre threads. Afraid I bit once.

To be honest I'm not sure on the mandatory bit. The devil is in the detail. It could be that a particular user has a profile, eg area, climate, type of use, low mileage, type of vehicle, ability to stay off roads when snow falls, that they can get by with care on normal tyres. The emphasis is quite deliberate as are all the caveats.

But in essence apart from those small caveats I agree. For years I just thought winters were for my vehicles in the frozen North and whenever I used one in UK it was awful, simply because I was using extreme Nordic design rubber. First time I used a vehicle on European friction tyres was amazed how good they were, even on snow and ice. Since then a convert.

One thing I'd add, is that my main UK car actually uses less fuel on the winters. Been consistent over a few years now, brim to brim monitoring.

Interesting reading is Evo's winter tyre test

RWD Jaguar XFR (on winter tyres) 25 seconds quicker round the west circuit at Bedford than an 4WD Evo.

I believe the threshold for Winter Tyres better than Summer tyres is around 7 deg C.

According to the below graph, winter tyres will therefore perform better for at least 3 months of the year (more in colder parts of the UK).


You then add in the fact that a higher proportion of accidents happen in adverse conditions, you could probably argue that the average driver would be better having the slight compromise on grip in the warmer, dryer conditions.

[F i F]

monthefish said:

F i F said:

Tallbut Buxomly said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

IMO for 99% of the UK population winter tyres are an utter and complete waste of time. Just buy some decent tyres and use them all year round.

But at the end of the day it's your money.....

Ahh yes another one of the clueless ones. Winter tyres should be mandatory for all drivers in the uk during normal winters. The difference in the performance of winter tyres vs all season is noticeable at anything under around 5deg.

I never used to think there was much point till i ran a set lsat winter and i am now converted.

TB, word in your shell-like, I think there is enough evidence on other threads that even I have registered that particular poster as a bit of a troll on cold weather tyre threads. Afraid I bit once.

To be honest I'm not sure on the mandatory bit. The devil is in the detail. It could be that a particular user has a profile, eg area, climate, type of use, low mileage, type of vehicle, ability to stay off roads when snow falls, that they can get by with care on normal tyres. The emphasis is quite deliberate as are all the caveats.

But in essence apart from those small caveats I agree. For years I just thought winters were for my vehicles in the frozen North and whenever I used one in UK it was awful, simply because I was using extreme Nordic design rubber. First time I used a vehicle on European friction tyres was amazed how good they were, even on snow and ice. Since then a convert.

One thing I'd add, is that my main UK car actually uses less fuel on the winters. Been consistent over a few years now, brim to brim monitoring.

Interesting reading is Evo's winter tyre test

RWD Jaguar XFR (on winter tyres) 25 seconds quicker round the west circuit at Bedford than an 4WD Evo.

I believe the threshold for Winter Tyres better than Summer tyres is around 7 deg C.

According to the below graph, winter tyres will therefore perform better for at least 3 months of the year (more in colder parts of the UK).


You then add in the fact that a higher proportion of accidents happen in adverse conditions, you could probably argue that the average driver would be better having the slight compromise on grip in the warmer, dryer conditions.

Thanks for sticking up that graph.

Plus if you consider that the max temps are typically around the middle of the day, and that if one follows a typical working pattern, ie not shift work but 9-5 ish, then a significant numbers of commuters wil be travelling at temperatures far lower than the maximum temperature and often nearer to the minimums. Then look at the graph with that in mind and you are right to say at least 3 months.

Last winter I spent a long time in UK as that was the way the job turned out. I spent a very low % of mileage between November when the tyres went on to April (ish) when they came off at temperatures above 7C. Most of the time was in low numbers and around or below zero, due to working silly hours.

In fact it was arguable that I took them off a week or two early as can recall on the next week there were some cool mornings and the P7s had noticeably less grip, significantly so on some damp but otherwise clean roads.

[JR]

F i F said:

One thing I'd add, is that my main UK car actually uses less fuel on the winters. Been consistent over a few years now, brim to brim monitoring.

Play your cards right and winter tyres can be quite good economically. If you move down an inch or two in wheel dia then not only are the tyres cheaper but the reduction in both unsprung weight and rotating weight is significant.