Winter Tyres

[monthefish]

F i F said:

monthefish said:

F i F said:

Tallbut Buxomly said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

IMO for 99% of the UK population winter tyres are an utter and complete waste of time. Just buy some decent tyres and use them all year round.

But at the end of the day it's your money.....

Ahh yes another one of the clueless ones. Winter tyres should be mandatory for all drivers in the uk during normal winters. The difference in the performance of winter tyres vs all season is noticeable at anything under around 5deg.

I never used to think there was much point till i ran a set lsat winter and i am now converted.

TB, word in your shell-like, I think there is enough evidence on other threads that even I have registered that particular poster as a bit of a troll on cold weather tyre threads. Afraid I bit once.

To be honest I'm not sure on the mandatory bit. The devil is in the detail. It could be that a particular user has a profile, eg area, climate, type of use, low mileage, type of vehicle, ability to stay off roads when snow falls, that they can get by with care on normal tyres. The emphasis is quite deliberate as are all the caveats.

But in essence apart from those small caveats I agree. For years I just thought winters were for my vehicles in the frozen North and whenever I used one in UK it was awful, simply because I was using extreme Nordic design rubber. First time I used a vehicle on European friction tyres was amazed how good they were, even on snow and ice. Since then a convert.

One thing I'd add, is that my main UK car actually uses less fuel on the winters. Been consistent over a few years now, brim to brim monitoring.

Interesting reading is Evo's winter tyre test

RWD Jaguar XFR (on winter tyres) 25 seconds quicker round the west circuit at Bedford than an 4WD Evo.

I believe the threshold for Winter Tyres better than Summer tyres is around 7 deg C.

According to the below graph, winter tyres will therefore perform better for at least 3 months of the year (more in colder parts of the UK).


You then add in the fact that a higher proportion of accidents happen in adverse conditions, you could probably argue that the average driver would be better having the slight compromise on grip in the warmer, dryer conditions.

Thanks for sticking up that graph.

Plus if you consider that the max temps are typically around the middle of the day, and that if one follows a typical working pattern, ie not shift work but 9-5 ish, then a significant numbers of commuters wil be travelling at temperatures far lower than the maximum temperature and often nearer to the minimums. Then look at the graph with that in mind and you are right to say at least 3 months.

Last winter I spent a long time in UK as that was the way the job turned out. I spent a very low % of mileage between November when the tyres went on to April (ish) when they came off at temperatures above 7C. Most of the time was in low numbers and around or below zero, due to working silly hours.

In fact it was arguable that I took them off a week or two early as can recall on the next week there were some cool mornings and the P7s had noticeably less grip, significantly so on some damp but otherwise clean roads.

Agreed. If you take an average line (halfway between the min and max for each month), January, February, March, November & December will all be beneath the 7 degree mark.

Think we're wasting our time though. Some people aren't willing to open their minds to the possibility they might be wrong, or even that their particular situation is not representative of everyone else in the UK.

Edited by monthefish on Wednesday 15th September 16:56

[Patrick Bateman]

I had a couple of near misses last winter in the Vectra with Toyo Proxes CF1s on, I now have a 320td and don't fancy being sideways all the time so I'm thinking of going for Nokian WRG2s in the next couple of months.

It doesn't have to snow for it to be a pain in the arse, not to mention my driving throughout the week to work is from 6am each day and then after 7pm coming back, far from the warmest parts of the day.

[Ozzie Osmond]

monthefish said:

Some people aren't willing to open their minds to the possibility they might be wrong.

Alternatively there's just a small number of thickwits who can't recognise the difference between "climate" and "weather".

http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/climate.htm

[kentmotorcompany]

Just ordered some Vredestein Wintrac Xtremes for my wife's car last night.

Se here: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Guy called me this morning to say they wont be here until 1st week of Oct. Also they have not been able to order as many as they would like, and they have been taking orders for winter tyres since the end of August something they have not known before.

If I ordered mine early, as I don't expect they will get any cheaper in Nov/Dec.

[Tallbut Buxomly]

reggie82 said:

I have an e36 and found it useless in the snow last year on Summer Tyres.

I have now bought some Winter tyres, and really looking forward to testing them out this year (praying we get some more snow!).

The way I see it is that while my Winter tyres are on the car, my Summer tyres aren't being worn. I'm still going to use the same amount of rubber per year, so the tyres haven't really cost me any extra then using my Summer tyres all year (ok the Winters will wear a bit faster, but it won't make much of a difference).

The only true extra cost I've incurred is £80 on a set of spare alloys, but even then I'll probably be able to sell them on for £80 when I've finished with them.

So overall it's not actually that expensive to run Summer and Winter tyres, but as Winter tyres will give you more grip throughout most of the Winter (not just when it snows), it seems good value for money.

Especially if they save me having an accident.

Bingo we have a winner.

Thats it entirely. It rally doesn't cost any more than normal running winter tyres but does make a substantial difference in your safety. Whilst i am all for people being allowed to kill themselves i spend more than enough time dodging idiots during summer months i don't need the added aggravation of trying to avoid those same idiots and then some over winter.

[Tallbut Buxomly]

F i F said:

monthefish said:

F i F said:

Tallbut Buxomly said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

IMO for 99% of the UK population winter tyres are an utter and complete waste of time. Just buy some decent tyres and use them all year round.

But at the end of the day it's your money.....

Ahh yes another one of the clueless ones. Winter tyres should be mandatory for all drivers in the uk during normal winters. The difference in the performance of winter tyres vs all season is noticeable at anything under around 5deg.

I never used to think there was much point till i ran a set lsat winter and i am now converted.

TB, word in your shell-like, I think there is enough evidence on other threads that even I have registered that particular poster as a bit of a troll on cold weather tyre threads. Afraid I bit once.

To be honest I'm not sure on the mandatory bit. The devil is in the detail. It could be that a particular user has a profile, eg area, climate, type of use, low mileage, type of vehicle, ability to stay off roads when snow falls, that they can get by with care on normal tyres. The emphasis is quite deliberate as are all the caveats.

But in essence apart from those small caveats I agree. For years I just thought winters were for my vehicles in the frozen North and whenever I used one in UK it was awful, simply because I was using extreme Nordic design rubber. First time I used a vehicle on European friction tyres was amazed how good they were, even on snow and ice. Since then a convert.

One thing I'd add, is that my main UK car actually uses less fuel on the winters. Been consistent over a few years now, brim to brim monitoring.

Interesting reading is Evo's winter tyre test

RWD Jaguar XFR (on winter tyres) 25 seconds quicker round the west circuit at Bedford than an 4WD Evo.

I believe the threshold for Winter Tyres better than Summer tyres is around 7 deg C.

According to the below graph, winter tyres will therefore perform better for at least 3 months of the year (more in colder parts of the UK).


You then add in the fact that a higher proportion of accidents happen in adverse conditions, you could probably argue that the average driver would be better having the slight compromise on grip in the warmer, dryer conditions.

Thanks for sticking up that graph.

Plus if you consider that the max temps are typically around the middle of the day, and that if one follows a typical working pattern, ie not shift work but 9-5 ish, then a significant numbers of commuters wil be travelling at temperatures far lower than the maximum temperature and often nearer to the minimums. Then look at the graph with that in mind and you are right to say at least 3 months.

Last winter I spent a long time in UK as that was the way the job turned out. I spent a very low % of mileage between November when the tyres went on to April (ish) when they came off at temperatures above 7C. Most of the time was in low numbers and around or below zero, due to working silly hours.

In fact it was arguable that I took them off a week or two early as can recall on the next week there were some cool mornings and the P7s had noticeably less grip, significantly so on some damp but otherwise clean roads.

Happy to agree that mandatory is probably overkill as i am more than happy for the more stupid of drivers out there to kill themselves if they so wish i just dont want them damaging my car.
I do between 1+2k miles a week all year round and its tiring enough avoiding them in normal weather.
It just is a case of maybe the law should be similar to germany then whereby if you have an accident in conditions where summer tyres were not appropriate you get points and a fine and your insurance is voided.

[Tallbut Buxomly]

kentmotorcompany said:

Just ordered some Vredestein Wintrac Xtremes for my wife's car last night.

Se here: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Guy called me this morning to say they wont be here until 1st week of Oct. Also they have not been able to order as many as they would like, and they have been taking orders for winter tyres since the end of August something they have not known before.

If I ordered mine early, as I don't expect they will get any cheaper in Nov/Dec.

This is because i suspect most people got caught out last year and are possibly listening to the forecasters predicting the same if not worse this year.

My leanings are towards us having another snowy and cold winter even harsher than last year and am planning ahead for it. If it doesnt come to pass no harm no foul but i am self employed and have service level agreements to keep which mean i cant afford not get to my customers.

[Tallbut Buxomly]

JR said:

F i F said:

One thing I'd add, is that my main UK car actually uses less fuel on the winters. Been consistent over a few years now, brim to brim monitoring.

Play your cards right and winter tyres can be quite good economically. If you move down an inch or two in wheel dia then not only are the tyres cheaper but the reduction in both unsprung weight and rotating weight is significant.

GEEK!!!!!

[Patrick Bateman]

Part of me just wants to drive past a load of stuck cars in a BMW since 'everyone' seems to think they're automatically going to be st.

Average Joe really doesn't appreciate the difference the correct tyres will make though.

[anonymous-user]

NeMiSiS said:

Im stocked up thanks.





For when the other cars and bikes retreat to the garage.

Don't think they'll do much for the handling of your Datsun mate.

My pickup with Pirelli Scorpions was faultless last year in 4wd, but my wife was stranded in her 308, so it looks like I'll be taking her to work and dropping the kids off etc if it gets as bad as last year.

[Tallbut Buxomly]

Patrick Bateman said:

Part of me just wants to drive past a load of stuck cars in a BMW since 'everyone' seems to think they're automatically going to be st.

Average Joe really doesn't appreciate the difference the correct tyres will make though.

TBH my a4 fwd on michlin primacys was great in the snow and ice and i wsa able to go up one or two hills that some 4x4's were struggling with one year but winter tyres make it much more capable than that even.

[DAVEVO9]

kentmotorcompany said:

Just ordered some Vredestein Wintrac Xtremes for my wife's car last night.

Se here: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Guy called me this morning to say they wont be here until 1st week of Oct. Also they have not been able to order as many as they would like, and they have been taking orders for winter tyres since the end of August something they have not known before.

If I ordered mine early, as I don't expect they will get any cheaper in Nov/Dec.

I was looking at the same tyres..

When I phoned Camskil they also told me they would be coming into the UK end of this month.

I was also looking at the Nokian WRG2.

[kentmotorcompany]

If we have a bad winter again, I think there will be a shortage of these.

I think a lot of people are becoming more aware of winter tyres, and tyre suppliers are only going to order what they are confident of selling, based on previous years sales.

[DAVEVO9]

kentmotorcompany said:

If we have a bad winter again, I think there will be a shortage of these.

I think a lot of people are becoming more aware of winter tyres, and tyre suppliers are only going to order what they are confident of selling, based on previous years sales.

Good point..

It's the normal motorist that should be made aware of them and the benefits they will give in the winter months.

You would think that people on this forum would be more clued up on them though?

[jon-]

DAVEVO9 said:

kentmotorcompany said:

Just ordered some Vredestein Wintrac Xtremes for my wife's car last night.

Se here: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Guy called me this morning to say they wont be here until 1st week of Oct. Also they have not been able to order as many as they would like, and they have been taking orders for winter tyres since the end of August something they have not known before.

If I ordered mine early, as I don't expect they will get any cheaper in Nov/Dec.

I was looking at the same tyres..

When I phoned Camskil they also told me they would be coming into the UK end of this month.

I was also looking at the Nokian WRG2.

Few other worth looking at if you can find them now: http://tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2010-Winter-Tyres...

kentmotorcompany said:

If we have a bad winter again, I think there will be a shortage of these.

I think a lot of people are becoming more aware of winter tyres, and tyre suppliers are only going to order what they are confident of selling, based on previous years sales.

We're meant to be more clued up on what should be on the car but judging from some of the thread arguments I'm not sure we are

Interestingly winter tyre searches seem to be up over 1000% on this time last year...

[DAVEVO9]

jon- said:

We're meant to be more clued up on what should be on the car but judging from some of the thread arguments I'm not sure we are

You get the same comments every year on here..

When we had the bad weather last year I was surprised none of the motoring organisations had anything to say about the use of winter tyres?

People just need to be educated that it's not just snow and ice conditions that warrant the use of winters.

[jon-]

DAVEVO9 said:

People just need to be educated that it's not just snow and ice conditions that warrant the use of winters.

I fully agree, which is why I'm doing my best to do something about it. It's actually quite encouraging this year, people were talking about winter tyres as early as August and it's not even dropped below 7c and winter tyre discussions and orders are flying about.

I'm fairly sure we're going to end up with a country shortage of winter tyres though.

[DAVEVO9]

jon- said:

I'm fairly sure we're going to end up with a country shortage of winter tyres though.

I think you are right with regards to UK suppliers..

I have done my research a bit and found that they are made during the summer and are gen available from about the end of this month..

With the different laws in Europe though they are more available..

For example..

This company, over in France, if you look on their website, any tyres you see are available to order.

http://www.tyres-pneus-online.co.uk/

Good reviews on this site too.

[NorthernBoy]

Tallbut Buxomly said:

Ahh yes another one of the clueless ones. Winter tyres should be mandatory for all drivers in the uk during normal winters. The difference in the performance of winter tyres vs all season is noticeable at anything under around 5deg.

I never used to think there was much point till i ran a set lsat winter and i am now converted.

My car will go, stop, and corner better on its summer tyres this winter than yours will on its winter tyres, yet you think that mine should be illegal?

Why, exactly?

If we want to mandate minimum grip levels, would it not be better to just legislate you off the road entirely when conditions are sub-optimal, and let the sportier cars loose?

Surely, if we want to mandate safety levels, it should be something such as measuring stopping distance from 70mph, and not penalising people who have the temerity to stick with their P-zeros in Central London.

Edited by NorthernBoy on Thursday 16th September 01:15

[Kawasicki]

Winter tyres have clearly far better grip than summer tyres on snow but on wet asphalt it is not as simple. I have tested summer tyres than had shorter wet braking distance than winter tyres, even just above freezing. On dry roads I have tested summer tyres that had far shorter stopping distancer than winter tyres, even at minus temperatures.

Yes, generally you may be better off on winter tyres when the temperature drops beneath 6/7 deg, but don't always assume summer tyres are poor under those temps.

You get what you pay for, winter tyres are no different. Contrary to what you might think wider winter tyres actually perform very well, especially if the surface has already been compacted, i.e. it is not powder/virgin snow. High speed rated winter tyres are not optimal on snow, but have quite good (for a winter tyre) steering feel, as the tread is stiffer with less sipes to avoid high speed overheating.

Finally, from my experience avoid all season tyres! And be careful that you actually get winter tyres, M&S marking doesn't mean a whole lot. Look for a good brand and do your research, Continental, Michelin, Bridgestone and Pirelli very rarely get it badly wrong. Some of the extreme cold scandinavian brands have tyres with AMAZING performance at -10 to -50, but at higher temps they can be worse than the more mainstream competitor tyres.

An interesting fact is that European cars ABS is usually just tuned for winter tyres on snow and ice, so when you brake on snow with summer tyres you are basically driving the car in an untested manner.

Get winter tyres for the winter, you will probably be safer and more mobile, but don't assume that all summer tyres are useless under 7 degrees.