Best two tyres. Fit to front or Rear of FWD car.

[dylan0451]

i remember swapping some worn camac's from the front to the rear of my metro, in the hope the mot wouldn't notice the worn inside shoulders unfortunately, it was a wet morning, and on a two lane rounbabout at about 20mph (after some slight understeer and a tiny balance of the throttle) i somehow took the exit one earlier than i was planning, at about 50 degrees to direction of travel

another vote for new rubber on the back for fwd

[heebeegeetee]

doogz said:

Your FWD hatch would power oversteer?

205's certainly don't. They can be quite tail happy, but they don't just oversteer when you're going round a corner for no reason, it's when people lift off or brake going round a corner. And tbh, in a 205, it won't matter what tyres are where in that situation, if you don't know how to drive, you're going to end up facing the wrong way.

No, but it would lift off oversteer at the flick of the right foot, which is what i said.

I thought it was a brilliant car. I had a great commute at the time between the top of coventry to sutton coldfield using the superb B4098 through Furnace End etc. In the R5 i became aware that i could drive this car faster and faster and faster on that road, until i started to consider that it was all getting a bit much and bordering on the anti-social, and if anything did go wrong i'd probably end up about 3 fields away from the road. I was aware that you could use the steering wheel to initiate a turn and with a mere flick or twitch of the right foot (just as you might to modulate speed anyway) the attitude of the car would change and the steering wheel would straighten up, and i'd realise that i'd be seriously tackling a properly challenging road and the steering wheel really wasn't moving much.

I also felt that of you had the skill to do it (I certainly didn't) that you could travel even quicker and initiate a slide in every corner.

I never drove a 205 but i used to participate in road rallies in which the 205 was very popular (if you didn't have a 400 brake Impreza a 205 GTi was the next best thing - seriously ). I once asked a navigator of one of the front-running 205's if they really do oversteer like people say and he replied with a laugh "oh christ yes, our car's sideways everywhere, it tries to kill us" although i dare say that set-up might have had something to do with that.

With my little Renault, and my Mk2 Golf Gti, and indeed later my Pug 306 diesel, I really don't recall understeer ever being an issue and have no recollection of suffering it unduly or becoming frustrated with/about it.

Indeed, having had a long think about it, the only cars that i recall understeer being a frustration is with my Boxster and a pal's 911 (as a passenger), but both on track of course.

[heebeegeetee]

doogz said:

I'm sorry, i still don't follow.

Which pedal are you flicking with your foot, and why?

And why do you twitch or flick at the pedal to modulate speed?

Well the throttle, of course. I do it because it suits, and because it's the best pedal for controlling speed. It used to suit Ayrton Senna too, though i didn't know that at the time.

It would be just a twitch, a flick, a momentary lift of the throttle, and it would control/adjust the attitude of the car, and as i said, the steering wheel would straighten mid-corner. It was brilliant, I thought.

[heebeegeetee]

doogz said:

And as i said in my first post in this thread, understeer will occur before oversteer, unless you provoke it, which it would appear you do. Good way to end up in a hedge.

Like i say, never really encountered understeer to any sort of degree. When my Golf encountered diesel on a roundabout at speed one dark, lonely night, I had no understeer whatsoever but the back snapped straight round and i came close to landing on top of the car that had just gone off into a ditch after said diesel. This happened just after fitting new tyres on the front.

Like i say, us who like hooning probably spend far more time cornering at our limits rather than emergency stopping. I have to say, I realy don't ever recall having an undeersteer-regardless or a aquaplane-regardless moment.

[marcosgt]

heebeegeetee said:

doogz said:

And as i said in my first post in this thread, understeer will occur before oversteer, unless you provoke it, which it would appear you do. Good way to end up in a hedge.

Like i say, never really encountered understeer to any sort of degree. When my Golf encountered diesel on a roundabout at speed one dark, lonely night, I had no understeer whatsoever but the back snapped straight round and i came close to landing on top of the car that had just gone off into a ditch after said diesel. This happened just after fitting new tyres on the front.

Like i say, us who like hooning probably spend far more time cornering at our limits rather than emergency stopping. I have to say, I realy don't ever recall having an undeersteer-regardless or a aquaplane-regardless moment.

To be fair, no tyre is going to cope with a liberal dousing of diesel.

Ignoring where you put the best tyres has anyone EVER spun a FWD car? I've had the tail go on a RWD a few times and did once get the tail VERY out on my Octavia, but that was on diesel (the rear tyres were virtually new) and it didn't spin. I lifted off and it straightened up.

Somehow I suspect in 99% of cases it makes no odds at all which tyres you have on the front or back and, maybe it's just me, but I get more scared by the nose ploughing straight on into a bend than a bit of a slide from the back.

Anyway, the experts say REAR for your best tyres - As I don't have a FWD car at the moment, it doesn't matter

M

Edited by marcosgt on Monday 4th October 17:37

[marcosgt]

doogz said:

I've spun a FWD car before.

I was young, and learning about vehicle dynamics and how cars handle when you run out of grip. Managed to avoid hitting anything, learned a lesson.

Did you provoke it though?

I can think of only one case where I've had the tail worryingly out on a FWD car (mentioned before) and I've had my share.

I've had terminal understeer (thankfully not literally for me or the car) a few times, but not oversteer, in a FWD car.

I also make no claims for being a great driver,lest I be misunderstood.

I'm not regularly drifting around corners, I just find the car going straight ahead when I try and turn a bend (as with worn tyres on the front on greasy surfaces) much scarier than a bit of a slide from the rear.

M.

Edited by marcosgt on Monday 4th October 15:52

[busta]

marcosgt said:

Ignoring where you put the best tyres has anyone EVER spun a FWD car?

I span my 205 diesel twice in the few years I had it, both times accidentally when pressing on on wet roads. One was caused by deep water on one side of the road pulling the car into the bank, the other by excessive speed and mis-judging a corner. I've spun my 106 once on the track but that was when really provoking it.

[Snails]

TheRoadWarrior said:

Snails said:

When i first purchased my car (fwd) the fronts needed replacing so on went a pair of Uniroyal Rainexperts, brilliant. The car stopped understeering all the time. I hadn't however counted on oversteer. The first time this came to my attention was at about 15-20 mph on a slightly damp roundabout. The Uniroyals gripped but the Nankangs on the rear completely let go. Luckily I managed to steer into it and regain control. It scared the hell out of me as it was the first time I'd ever experienced oversteer.

It was at that point it wasn't worth replacing the fronts alone and leaving 'ditchfinders' on the rear.

The Nakangs were replaced straight away and i've had no such issues.

Edited by Snails on Monday 4th October 08:37

Yes but having new good quality tyres on the front and old-nankag-ditch-finders on the rear isn't exactly a fair comparison. Of course it'll oversteer!

No one is disputing that having poor quality(wet/dry) or low tread(wet) tyres on the back will make a car more biased to oversteer but if your car is dangerously oversteering on a wet roundabout at 10-15mph then your rear tyres are either
a) Utter gash compared to the fronts or
b) Obviously less than legal tread or
c) You were booting it.

I don't even think it was Nakang on the back. It was a pair on Wanli (I've been struggling to remember what they were called all day) They were option A. The tread was perfectly within the legal limit. They were absolutely shocking. Putting decent tyres on the front and rear transformed the car.

My car is the first car I've ever owned (despite being 24) and I never appreciated the difference a set of tyres could make to a car and its handling and general performance. I will never underestimate them again.

[Turkey]

I find that I never get oversteer and very rarely serious understeer on mine. However, with worn tyres up front, it is easy to sense when the road is slippy, I don't plough full speed into a corner and hope for the best, I will gradually lean on the tyres, turning in smoothly while making sure I am not way too fast for the conditions, and that I won't have to lift off the accelerator a great deal, whatever happens. If grip is poor, the steering feels a bit light, and I back off straight away.

With better tyres on the rear, I know these should offer more grip than the front, as long as I am not driving into a bend on a trailing throttle. Using the RoSPA/roadcraft technique I always try to slow before a corner, get in the right gear, and set the throttle to get power on gently (neutral throttle)to take me around a bend, so I am now less likely to experience oversteer than many drivers.

So I consider myself to know how to balance a car for best stability, and still would not take the risk of having far slippier tyres on the rear. A mid corner bump or as is the case near to me, a big rut when driving around a tight roundabout, could unsettle the rear and the car could swap ends.

For the many drivers I see trail braking, braking mid corner, and swerving around corners and to change lanes, I think there is a more clear cut case for having better tyres on the rear.

After my incident with oversteer in my Cavalier, on a wet roundabout, I fitted better tyres, but did not change my driving style. It was only the recent RoSPA training that opened my eyes up to better car balance. But I'm not perfect, and neither are road conditions, so would still insist on having decent tyres on the rear at all times.

[Baz T]

Silent1 said:

Baz T said:

Front, but it really depends on driver.

I'm happy to correct oversteer rather than find understeer, at which point it could be too late...

Have you ever experienced overseers in an FWD car? It's not just a quick flick to get it back, if you cock it up you're just going to hit the post with the opposite side of the car

Yes as my profile may suggest, alot.

I choose to compete in 205's basically because they're the most rear wheel drive FWD car you'll find, and cheap, and damn fun.

Yes as you say in your later post it can be scary, but i'm fairly well versed as LOOS is often used as an advantage competitively. It can happen alot more often than just hitting a patch of water, ice etc too, it doesn't take much for the rear of the car to step out when it's already at the limit of adhesion. Obviously on the road you shouldn't be close, but you'd be surprised sometimes, especially when running cheap ditch-finder tyres.

I'm actually firmly in the belief that the license test should include forms of driving a car in a safe environment to the limit of adhesion etc, much like our Scandinavian cousins. It'd make us all much better drivers for the road.

So back on topic, given the front wheels of a front wheel drive car do pretty much everything, steering, braking, driving, i stand by my choice. When you loose control of the car at any point, whether it be under or over-steer, you'll need one or all of those things to re-gain control, so what good is having no grip in the most important place...


Here's a little sequence of pictures just for amusement of me 'using' over-steer in an essentially standard 1.6 GTi at a clubman event...

Edited by Baz T on Tuesday 5th October 01:18