Changes to 2011 MOT Scaremongering???

[youngsyr]

CooperS said:

Just fitted some HIDs by my local specialist and sailed through the MOT my head light beam focus is much better than my flat mates running cheap legal halford lights and I don't blind other road users.

How would you know if you did?

Anyway, it's off topic but being blinded by other cars' lights depends a lot on what you're driving rather than their lights. In an MX-5 where you sit about 6" off the ground you are blinded by pretty much every other car. SUV lights seem to be at eye level.

[alock]

CooperS said:

OwenK said:

300bhp/ton said:

frosted said:

I cant wait till the crappy hids get taken off the road , hope its soon and policed properly. Grrrrrr.......

It's not that much of an issue FFS

I agree. I don't run HIDs so I don't have a vested interest in the subject, but still I bet that 90% of the HID-type lights that blind you on the road, are actually factory fit & just haven't been adjusted properly by the lazy owner.

Just fitted some HIDs by my local specialist and sailed through the MOT my head light beam focus is much better than my flat mates running cheap legal halford lights and I don't blind other road users.

Can I ask who the specialist was and where they got the hardware from?

One of the largest providers of aftermarket HIDs is http://www.hids4u.co.uk and they are quiet open about the fact that their kits are not road legal.

Quote from http://www.hids4u.co.uk/terms.html
"Please remember that it is your responsibility to ensure that the items purchased are suitable for your vehicle make/model and that the use of said items complies with all applicable laws in your Country. In the UK, fitting an aftermarket HID kit is not technically road legal as you are replacing a halogen bulb with an HID bulb, because of this the HID bulb cannot be E marked, which is a requirement for it to be road legal. Therefore our HID kits are sold for off-road use only."

[Rockatansky]

'Not road legal' and able to pass an MOT are two quite distinct things.

There are many things that will not fail an MOT (or not be part of the test) which are in some way 'not road legal'.

I'd like to know if anyone has ever been succesfully prosecuted (or even reported) for an offence relating to HID lamps being fitted in non E approved housings.

[300bhp/ton]

youngsyr said:

300bhp/ton said:

aeropilot said:

Olivera said:

The only alternative is to ban any and all ECU modifications completely.

I'm sure that is the intention with TUV approval, as already applies in some EU states. If the part/ECU/widget/whatever doesn't have TUV approval certificates it can't be fitted.

I don't see the sense in that at all. A MAP is far more than just for making power. It is and needs to be refined all the time, car makers don't usually create a dingle map and never touch it again. Heel the "M" button in a BMW M5 basically alters or modifies the ECU map and many cars are self learning too.

And as said, if you ban ECU maps, do you suggest banning carb tuning too?

The M button won't alter maps in all likelihood, I think it's much more likely that the pushing the button tells the ECU to switch to a different set of maps that are already stored on the ECU.

Likewise "self-learning" ECUs; all the ones I've seen start with a standard set of maps for running under "normal" conditions with additional timing and/or fueling being added or subtracted under certain parameters as dictated by the software programming. Therefore all the information is there to start with.

For what it's worth, most post mid-90s and later ECUs already automatically switch the parameters for running the engine under idle and low load compared to when the car is actually being driven for emission test purposes.

Even complex ECUs therefore do not "alter" or "modify" themselves, they simply run more than one map or possibly interpolate between several maps according to a set algorithm. It's therefore possible to check if the maps and/or software on these ECUs has been interfered with by comparing them to a standard set of maps and algorithms. This may not be easy in many cases unless you have access to the manufacturer's ECU software, but it is certainly possible if you have the will to do it.

Some ECUs even keep track of the amount of times the ECU has been accessed or flashed.

Edited by youngsyr on Wednesday 10th November 10:08

With due respect, how is the end result any different? Switching to a different MAP is in essence a "new active" map. Being pre programmed shouldn't make any odds or if it done aftermarket.

[CooperS]

alock said:

CooperS said:

OwenK said:

300bhp/ton said:

frosted said:

I cant wait till the crappy hids get taken off the road , hope its soon and policed properly. Grrrrrr.......

It's not that much of an issue FFS

I agree. I don't run HIDs so I don't have a vested interest in the subject, but still I bet that 90% of the HID-type lights that blind you on the road, are actually factory fit & just haven't been adjusted properly by the lazy owner.

Just fitted some HIDs by my local specialist and sailed through the MOT my head light beam focus is much better than my flat mates running cheap legal halford lights and I don't blind other road users.

Can I ask who the specialist was and where they got the hardware from?

One of the largest providers of aftermarket HIDs is http://www.hids4u.co.uk and they are quiet open about the fact that their kits are not road legal.

Quote from http://www.hids4u.co.uk/terms.html
"Please remember that it is your responsibility to ensure that the items purchased are suitable for your vehicle make/model and that the use of said items complies with all applicable laws in your Country. In the UK, fitting an aftermarket HID kit is not technically road legal as you are replacing a halogen bulb with an HID bulb, because of this the HID bulb cannot be E marked, which is a requirement for it to be road legal. Therefore our HID kits are sold for off-road use only."

youngsyr said:

CooperS said:

Just fitted some HIDs by my local specialist and sailed through the MOT my head light beam focus is much better than my flat mates running cheap legal halford lights and I don't blind other road users.

How would you know if you did?

Anyway, it's off topic but being blinded by other cars' lights depends a lot on what you're driving rather than their lights. In an MX-5 where you sit about 6" off the ground you are blinded by pretty much every other car. SUV lights seem to be at eye level.

Sorry should of been clearer, its my lotus indy who set the lights at the MoT station to ensure they passed the current MoT requirements not a distributer of the lights.

To the other poster I know the feeling about being blinded by every other car with facory fitted or otherwise HIDs so i can appricate those who do proper DIY jobs without trying to set them up are a real pain to others on the road.

My point was that ill fitting legal lights are as bad not if worse than my HIDs and i find now heading into winter that they are essential bit of kit for Elise drivers.

Edited by CooperS on Wednesday 10th November 12:33

[youngsyr]

300bhp/ton said:

youngsyr said:

300bhp/ton said:

aeropilot said:

Olivera said:

The only alternative is to ban any and all ECU modifications completely.

I'm sure that is the intention with TUV approval, as already applies in some EU states. If the part/ECU/widget/whatever doesn't have TUV approval certificates it can't be fitted.

I don't see the sense in that at all. A MAP is far more than just for making power. It is and needs to be refined all the time, car makers don't usually create a dingle map and never touch it again. Heel the "M" button in a BMW M5 basically alters or modifies the ECU map and many cars are self learning too.

And as said, if you ban ECU maps, do you suggest banning carb tuning too?

The M button won't alter maps in all likelihood, I think it's much more likely that the pushing the button tells the ECU to switch to a different set of maps that are already stored on the ECU.

Likewise "self-learning" ECUs; all the ones I've seen start with a standard set of maps for running under "normal" conditions with additional timing and/or fueling being added or subtracted under certain parameters as dictated by the software programming. Therefore all the information is there to start with.

For what it's worth, most post mid-90s and later ECUs already automatically switch the parameters for running the engine under idle and low load compared to when the car is actually being driven for emission test purposes.

Even complex ECUs therefore do not "alter" or "modify" themselves, they simply run more than one map or possibly interpolate between several maps according to a set algorithm. It's therefore possible to check if the maps and/or software on these ECUs has been interfered with by comparing them to a standard set of maps and algorithms. This may not be easy in many cases unless you have access to the manufacturer's ECU software, but it is certainly possible if you have the will to do it.

Some ECUs even keep track of the amount of times the ECU has been accessed or flashed.

Edited by youngsyr on Wednesday 10th November 10:08

With due respect, how is the end result any different? Switching to a different MAP is in essence a "new active" map. Being pre programmed shouldn't make any odds or if it done aftermarket.

It's not the end result that's the issue - it's the process which leads to it that you have either misunderstood or explained incorrectly and is relevant to this thread: if it's possible to detect an ECU that's been manually adjusted, then it's possible that an MOT could include a test for it.

In your understanding of how the ECUs work it would be extremely difficult to tell apart an ECU that alters or modifies its standard maps automatically or at the touch of a button from the same ECU that had its maps or algorithms been manually altered.

However, my understanding is that it's comparatively very easy to tell the difference between an ECU with several standard maps and algorithms and the same ECU that has been remapped.

If my understanding is correct, the ECU being pre-programmed as standard would make a big difference to it being remapped by an after market tuner.

[300bhp/ton]

youngsyr said:

It's not the end result that's the issue - it's the process which leads to it that you have either misunderstood or explained incorrectly and is relevant to this thread: if it's possible to detect an ECU that's been manually adjusted, then it's possible that an MOT could include a test for it.

I don't believe that it is or will be possible to detect this. There are too many different systems out there. And as said before "define ECU". A car may have lots of ECU's.

Then you'd have to define "manually" adjusted. e.g. Prodrive spec Impreza's had the ECU altered by the dealer/Prodrive.

The smart Roadster has a latter map available either at cost or free if you have it serviced at a dealer and request it.

There was also an optional MAP which made more power, again dealer installed. MINI do the same sort of thing with the JCW package on the Cooper S. The dealer "re-maps" the ECU.

youngsyr said:

In your understanding of how the ECUs work it would be extremely difficult to tell apart an ECU that alters or modifies its standard maps automatically or at the touch of a button from the same ECU that had its maps or algorithms been manually altered.

However, my understanding is that it's comparatively very easy to tell the difference between an ECU with several standard maps and algorithms and the same ECU that has been remapped.

I suspect that is very highly dependent on the exact car and ECU/PCM device and software it uses. You would also likely need a "standard" map and a comparison tool to compare against.

What about plug in control boxes that don't alter the base map at all?

youngsyr said:

If my understanding is correct, the ECU being pre-programmed as standard would make a big difference to it being remapped by an after market tuner.

But how would you know which was which?

[J4CKO]

I dont get the Co2 thing, surely most remapped cars on the prescribed test programme used to classify its banding would produce very similar figures to standard models as it isnt about full throttle, foot down motoring, its about normal day to day driving and a remapped car I would expect has similar values in pootle mode but different ones for wide open throttle, the car weighs the same, has the same gearing etc etc so I cant see it being much different other than the capability to produce more Co2, in certain circumstances the remapped car may be actually better than standard as it is more optimised to local conditions, altitude, fuel etc.


It isnt going to happen anyway so why worry, and HID kits I can live without.

[aeropilot]

300bhp/ton said:

The smart Roadster has a latter map available either at cost or free if you have it serviced at a dealer and request it.

There was also an optional MAP which made more power, again dealer installed. MINI do the same sort of thing with the JCW package on the Cooper S. The dealer "re-maps" the ECU.

Factory approved/dealer installed 're-maps' wouldn't be an issue as for these to be warrenty approved for sale within the EU (those that are, e.g BMW Performance incl JCW Mini stuff and Saab-Performance/Hirsch stuff for example) they have to be TUV approved and tested so would be MOT compliant.
And the reason these 'remaps' and upgrades are most expensive than aftermarket, is largely to cover that expensive approval process as anyone that's involved in TUV approval processes will know.

[aeropilot]

J4CKO said:

It isnt going to happen anyway so why worry

And you know that for a fact....

Such legalities have already been adopted by some EU states, and cross harmanisation within all EU member states is what the burocrats want to achieve.
It would be extreamley naive to think that such conditions will NOT be adopted here in the UK within 5-10 years or even earlier.

[The Wookie]

J4CKO said:

a remapped car I would expect has similar values in pootle mode but different ones for wide open throttle, the car weighs the same, has the same gearing etc etc so I cant see it being much different other than the capability to produce more Co2, in certain circumstances the remapped car may be actually better than standard as it is more optimised to local conditions, altitude, fuel etc.

It doesn't have to have a point, it just has to be enforceable

[300bhp/ton]

The Wookie said:

J4CKO said:

a remapped car I would expect has similar values in pootle mode but different ones for wide open throttle, the car weighs the same, has the same gearing etc etc so I cant see it being much different other than the capability to produce more Co2, in certain circumstances the remapped car may be actually better than standard as it is more optimised to local conditions, altitude, fuel etc.

It doesn't have to have a point, it just has to be enforceable

Which it won't be, or rather it won't be detectable.

[youngsyr]

300bhp/ton said:

youngsyr said:

It's not the end result that's the issue - it's the process which leads to it that you have either misunderstood or explained incorrectly and is relevant to this thread: if it's possible to detect an ECU that's been manually adjusted, then it's possible that an MOT could include a test for it.

I don't believe that it is or will be possible to detect this. There are too many different systems out there. And as said before "define ECU". A car may have lots of ECU's.

It is possible to detect differences between a standard ECU and a remapped one in every case I've seen, whether it's practical to do it is another matter.

300bhp/ton said:

Then you'd have to define "manually" adjusted. e.g. Prodrive spec Impreza's had the ECU altered by the dealer/Prodrive.

The smart Roadster has a latter map available either at cost or free if you have it serviced at a dealer and request it.

There was also an optional MAP which made more power, again dealer installed. MINI do the same sort of thing with the JCW package on the Cooper S. The dealer "re-maps" the ECU.

Again, it's possible to have a definition of a non-standard ECU, we have this for insurance purposes, it doesn't seem that it would be outside the realms of possibility to bring it in for the MOT, if the government/EU were so inclined.

300bhp/ton said:

youngsyr said:

In your understanding of how the ECUs work it would be extremely difficult to tell apart an ECU that alters or modifies its standard maps automatically or at the touch of a button from the same ECU that had its maps or algorithms been manually altered.

However, my understanding is that it's comparatively very easy to tell the difference between an ECU with several standard maps and algorithms and the same ECU that has been remapped.

I suspect that is very highly dependent on the exact car and ECU/PCM device and software it uses. You would also likely need a "standard" map and a comparison tool to compare against.

Well, ECUs tend to be manufactured by just a few companies rather than all the individual car manufacturers, so you'd be surprised just how similar ECUs are across different makes of car.

Once again, it's possible to have access to standard maps and it's possible to have a tool that compares them (MS Excel will do it in most cases).

300bhp/ton said:

What about plug in control boxes that don't alter the base map at all?

They'd be easy to spot if fitted for the MOT and it would be clear whether these are fitted as standard, just as with aftermarket parts in the US which are CARB or non-CARB approved.

300bhp/ton said:

youngsyr said:

If my understanding is correct, the ECU being pre-programmed as standard would make a big difference to it being remapped by an after market tuner.

But how would you know which was which?

Again, you would just need to compare the maps against standard maps (or to be more precise, you would need to compare the data in the .rom files). There are plenty of people who can do this now, so it is possible, whether it's practical again is open to debate.

[J4CKO]

If they cant kept track of all the people here illegally, people claiming benefits for people who dont exist and keep track of highly sensitive information on laptops my remap seems safe, failing that like a lot of people do for services anyway, put it back to standard via the programmer.

Its just too complicated, and no I dont know it for a fact but what chance to the government stand against devious and tech savvy petrolheads when searching for our "Remaps of Mass Destruction"

[youngsyr]

J4CKO said:

If they cant kept track of all the people here illegally, people claiming benefits for people who dont exist and keep track of highly sensitive information on laptops my remap seems safe, failing that like a lot of people do for services anyway, put it back to standard via the programmer.

Its just too complicated, and no I dont know it for a fact but what chance to the government stand against devious and tech savvy petrolheads when searching for our "Remaps of Mass Destruction"

The important difference is that illegal immigrants can't be made to pay for a test to see if they're here illegally and can't be fined more cash when they fail the test.

Unfortunately Pistonheads, even tech-savvy ones, can and that is why we're a target.

[300bhp/ton]

youngsyr said:

300bhp/ton said:

youngsyr said:

It's not the end result that's the issue - it's the process which leads to it that you have either misunderstood or explained incorrectly and is relevant to this thread: if it's possible to detect an ECU that's been manually adjusted, then it's possible that an MOT could include a test for it.

I don't believe that it is or will be possible to detect this. There are too many different systems out there. And as said before "define ECU". A car may have lots of ECU's.

It is possible to detect differences between a standard ECU and a remapped one in every case I've seen, whether it's practical to do it is another matter.

Practical is the whole essence of it though. Of course there are differences, and if you can't see, feel or notice them, no one would do it.

But its far more obscurer than just saying it can be detected. Some old ECU's can be modded by changing jumper plugs or soldering in a different resisters.

youngsyr said:

300bhp/ton said:

Then you'd have to define "manually" adjusted. e.g. Prodrive spec Impreza's had the ECU altered by the dealer/Prodrive.

The smart Roadster has a latter map available either at cost or free if you have it serviced at a dealer and request it.

There was also an optional MAP which made more power, again dealer installed. MINI do the same sort of thing with the JCW package on the Cooper S. The dealer "re-maps" the ECU.

Again, it's possible to have a definition of a non-standard ECU, we have this for insurance purposes, it doesn't seem that it would be outside the realms of possibility to bring it in for the MOT, if the government/EU were so inclined.

But most insurance is a scam and they'll charge you for putting on new tyres if you are daft enough to tell them they are a different make or size.

There is no true definition in existence.

youngsyr said:

300bhp/ton said:

youngsyr said:

In your understanding of how the ECUs work it would be extremely difficult to tell apart an ECU that alters or modifies its standard maps automatically or at the touch of a button from the same ECU that had its maps or algorithms been manually altered.

However, my understanding is that it's comparatively very easy to tell the difference between an ECU with several standard maps and algorithms and the same ECU that has been remapped.

I suspect that is very highly dependent on the exact car and ECU/PCM device and software it uses. You would also likely need a "standard" map and a comparison tool to compare against.

Well, ECUs tend to be manufactured by just a few companies rather than all the individual car manufacturers, so you'd be surprised just how similar ECUs are across different makes of car.

Once again, it's possible to have access to standard maps and it's possible to have a tool that compares them (MS Excel will do it in most cases).

300bhp/ton said:

What about plug in control boxes that don't alter the base map at all?

They'd be easy to spot if fitted for the MOT and it would be clear whether these are fitted as standard, just as with aftermarket parts in the US which are CARB or non-CARB approved.

300bhp/ton said:

youngsyr said:

If my understanding is correct, the ECU being pre-programmed as standard would make a big difference to it being remapped by an after market tuner.

But how would you know which was which?

Again, you would just need to compare the maps against standard maps (or to be more precise, you would need to compare the data in the .rom files). There are plenty of people who can do this now, so it is possible, whether it's practical again is open to debate.

And again, practical is the entire point of it. Also are you sure all companies will happily distribute their MAPS? I suspect many an auto maker would be less happy about this.

What about fitting an ECU to a car engine? Or a different ECU system to an already EFI car? These might not be altered maps....

And in short it just lunacy to want to check a map for any sensible purpose that an MoT should be looking for.

If you are to ban this, then you'd also have to ban everything car tuning or performance related. No more exhaust, intakes, induction kits, cams, ported heads, different engines, different fuels, nitrous oxide and so on.

[ben_h100]

Is there ever the danger (and I'm talking years down the line here), that when taking your car for a MOT, the garage would simply plug their laptop into your OBD port and `reflash` your ECU map back to standard, wiping any map you have on there?

Like an `all cars will be standard` vision set out by the government?

To what extent are engine modifications banned in Germany? (As stated by a previous poster).

[youngsyr]

300bhp/ton said:

And in short it just lunacy to want to check a map for any sensible purpose that an MoT should be looking for.

If you are to ban this, then you'd also have to ban everything car tuning or performance related. No more exhaust, intakes, induction kits, cams, ported heads, different engines, different fuels, nitrous oxide and so on.

I never said it was practical or sensible, just that it was possible.

You seem to think that it is inpractical, non-sensical and impossible, the last bit is what I disagree with.

[youngsyr]

ben_h100 said:

Is there ever the danger (and I'm talking years down the line here), that when taking your car for a MOT, the garage would simply plug their laptop into your OBD port and `reflash` your ECU map back to standard, wiping any map you have on there?

Like an `all cars will be standard` vision set out by the government?

To what extent are engine modifications banned in Germany? (As stated by a previous poster).

Again, possible (at least on cars with OBDII and later), but not likely.

The liability issues if they brick your ECU, which is an expensive part, would probably preclude it.

Years ago you would have to take your ECU apart and substitute micro-chips etc to be able to remap them, it wouldn't take much for a manufacturer to go back to this type of set up and make it extremely difficult for an ECU to be stealthily remapped, if they were so inclined.

Even then you could still sneakily alter your car's performance by adjusting the signals going into the ECU, as many piggyback units used to do.

The bottom line is though that no matter how clever a manufacturer gets in locking up their ECUs, there is a lot of money to be made in working out how to unlockthem and there are very smart people out there with the inclination to try.

[The Wookie]

300bhp/ton said:

The Wookie said:

It doesn't have to have a point, it just has to be enforceable

Which it won't be, or rather it won't be detectable.

I agree, at the moment anyway

Standard maps can be reloaded, tuning boxes can be removed, and as far as I can see, only complete aftermarket ECU's are at risk, but even then you can conceal those and leave the standard ECU if necessary.

In the future, perhaps manufacturers will place more security and map change detection on their ECU's, but unless it's a legal requirement I doubt they will.

At the moment, as far as I can make out, the TUV approved maps sold by manufacturers/tuners only seem to be TUV approved because of legal restrictions on the sellers themselves, and IMHO that's the only danger in the UK going forwards.

Edited for quoting muppetry

Edited by The Wookie on Wednesday 10th November 14:34