RE: SOTW: MG-F 1.8 VVC
Discussion
Frankly I'm amazed it took MGJ this long to get involved, he's normally first on the scene of any potential rover negativity.
Anyway, the company doesnt exist anymore and the cars that are still on the road do seem to be driven by enthusiasts or chavs/old people.
Nothing I have said here is untrue, but you can be sure that some how I will be seen as anti rover by some.
A M A Z I N..
Anyway, the company doesnt exist anymore and the cars that are still on the road do seem to be driven by enthusiasts or chavs/old people.
Nothing I have said here is untrue, but you can be sure that some how I will be seen as anti rover by some.
A M A Z I N..
hman said:
Frankly I'm amazed it took MGJ this long to get involved, he's normally first on the scene of any potential rover negativity.
Anyway, the company doesnt exist anymore and the cars that are still on the road do seem to be driven by enthusiasts or chavs/old people.
Nothing I have said here is untrue, but you can be sure that some how I will be seen as anti rover by some.
A M A Z I N..
Infinite patience ........ All part of meine meister plan to lure those with hman mindsets ....Anyway, the company doesnt exist anymore and the cars that are still on the road do seem to be driven by enthusiasts or chavs/old people.
Nothing I have said here is untrue, but you can be sure that some how I will be seen as anti rover by some.
A M A Z I N..
I'm amazed that you're so amazed... truly amazing.
..
LotusAlfaV6bloke said:
My experience is that everyone I know who has had one, has had it fail and they come to me and say "hey, you know about cars, can you look at my Rover and tell whats wrong with it?"
I normally stare for a moment or two at the engine, then stare at them, then stare at the engine again, make note of the fountain pouring from the waterpump, and then tell them to go get their head gasket fixed. I fit them by the way. £500 a pop. (Pun intended).
Being a self confessed genius (as you stated on a previous post) on cars and reliability, does that mean that an RX7, Alfa 156 or Lotus excel are the cars to go for ? or do you just like working on cars ? I normally stare for a moment or two at the engine, then stare at them, then stare at the engine again, make note of the fountain pouring from the waterpump, and then tell them to go get their head gasket fixed. I fit them by the way. £500 a pop. (Pun intended).
hman said:
Frankly I'm amazed it took MGJ this long to get involved, he's normally first on the scene of any potential rover negativity.
Anyway, the company doesnt exist anymore and the cars that are still on the road do seem to be driven by enthusiasts or chavs/old people.
So none of the Rovers or MGs on the roads are driven by average familly types on a tight budget? I suggest that you last statement is most certainly untrue.Anyway, the company doesnt exist anymore and the cars that are still on the road do seem to be driven by enthusiasts or chavs/old people.
As usual, the people who understand the head gasket issue the least are the ones most likely to poke their oar in.
Ronaldo - glad you are reading my posts in this thread, just not all of them it seems!
My point is clearly I choose flawed cars (from a whole range of manufacturers, configurations and countries) that have a clear benefit/advantage despite that flaw(s).
The MGF is hopeless because it has all the flaws discussed by all in this thread but without any upsides at all. It isn't pretty enough, clever enough, or bring any new ideas that means it is a better purchase then an MX5 despite the rubbish power plant that explodes (or any grounds other then being cheaper). It will then go pop and negate that lower purchase price argument anyway.
Chavs and enthusiasts I think the earlier comment was, and I agree.
BTW - I don't work in the trade at all, that was a joke
My point is clearly I choose flawed cars (from a whole range of manufacturers, configurations and countries) that have a clear benefit/advantage despite that flaw(s).
The MGF is hopeless because it has all the flaws discussed by all in this thread but without any upsides at all. It isn't pretty enough, clever enough, or bring any new ideas that means it is a better purchase then an MX5 despite the rubbish power plant that explodes (or any grounds other then being cheaper). It will then go pop and negate that lower purchase price argument anyway.
Chavs and enthusiasts I think the earlier comment was, and I agree.
BTW - I don't work in the trade at all, that was a joke
Posted for the benefit of all those with the "they all do that" [ TADT ] mindset of the likes LotusAlfaV6Bloke and hman....
The AA were called out to a record breaker of over 14,000 breakdown call outs today in these adverse conditions.... every one a K-Series Rover apparently.
PHACT! ~ You better believe it! ...
Now for something completely different ...
More seriously, the aforemention two PHers will be delighted to hear the 'just in' news that thanks to a little effort from me, another K-Series Rover lives on and thrives following rectification of the "They all do that" CHG so called failure. It was not all plain sailing though.
The car being a 51 Reg Rover 45 I picked up for little outlay a few days ago. Having replaced this mess ( elastomer seal damage ) :~
with this :~
Then, reassembled the cylinder head after a clean up and then turned my attention to the Water Pump only to discover tell tale signs that it had been recently replaced with new so almost certainly was not the root cause of this car's gasket "failure" ... Hmmm ...back to the drawing board..
Manually rotated the engine several times to check for any metal to metal contact ~ all well there. I then did a Compression test and was delighted to record all four cylinders giving a healthy reading well within ten percent of 185 psi.
So, refitted, reassembled and connected all the various sensors, electrical and coolant hose connections and confidently filled the cooling system with 50-50 OAT recommended coolant. So far so good.
Reconnected the battery and turned the ignition key ~ engine fired up immediately ~ always satisfying when that happens. I allowed the engine to warm up and gave the throttle pedal an occasional prod to increase the revs... So far so good. After a while, the now warmed engine started to misfire at idle and would only clear when given higher revs... not good. Then I saw it. Imagine my disappointment after all my careful work to observe a pool of coolant under the engine on the gearbox side... even some coolant present trapped in the gearbox's webbing castings ... If that as not enough, the temperature gauge needle was reading a tad above the 'normal' position of just below midway... Oh dear ....
Getting dark now so used a torch to check where all that coolant was coming from.... lots of it...It was coming from the Cylinder Head well above the head gasket line ....... I'm now thinking cracked head probably caused by poor coolant mix freezing or no coolant at all, only water. I then used a small mirror to check more closely in the torch light and then pinpointed the source of the coolant escape route. The coolant was emerging under pressure from around and under the heads of the two 8mm bolts which secure the little alloy casting to the cylinder head where the top radiator hose locates along with heater hose and two engine management sensors.
As soon as I placed an 8mm socket on the bolt heads it was obvious that both were loose ~ not even finger tight! I tightened both of these bolts carefully, restarted the engine and carefully topped up the lost coolant with neat OAT coolant. Bled the system again and after a few minutes, the engine settled to a rock steady idle with not a trace of any misfires... In fact the engine was behaving like a smooth turbine which is typical of any well maintained healthy K-Series.
Next day in better sunlight, I had a close look at the area where the coolant was escaping. There were several tell tale stains showing clearly where .... I took a couple of before and after images of this area. Note coloured escaping coolant stains :~
Now, if anyone has read this far, a simple question:~
Did this gasket actually 'fail' or was it first damaged by loss of coolant leading to engine overheating.
Another question ~ why were those two 8mm bolts so loose ? They are usually stuck firm if they've never been disturbed since leaving the factory production line. I shall contact the previous owner about it. If he had worked on the car and done this ( unlikely ) or entrusted the work to a pro-outfit, those loose bolts did not just happen ... someone had loosened them. Were that not the case, the previous owner would still be happily driving this low mileage Rover 45 which had been in his family for years ....
Just to add ~ that little Rover 45 is now running superbly ... Good eh ...
Rejoice all you non-believers.... :lol:
..
The AA were called out to a record breaker of over 14,000 breakdown call outs today in these adverse conditions.... every one a K-Series Rover apparently.
PHACT! ~ You better believe it! ...
Now for something completely different ...
More seriously, the aforemention two PHers will be delighted to hear the 'just in' news that thanks to a little effort from me, another K-Series Rover lives on and thrives following rectification of the "They all do that" CHG so called failure. It was not all plain sailing though.
The car being a 51 Reg Rover 45 I picked up for little outlay a few days ago. Having replaced this mess ( elastomer seal damage ) :~
with this :~
Then, reassembled the cylinder head after a clean up and then turned my attention to the Water Pump only to discover tell tale signs that it had been recently replaced with new so almost certainly was not the root cause of this car's gasket "failure" ... Hmmm ...back to the drawing board..
Manually rotated the engine several times to check for any metal to metal contact ~ all well there. I then did a Compression test and was delighted to record all four cylinders giving a healthy reading well within ten percent of 185 psi.
So, refitted, reassembled and connected all the various sensors, electrical and coolant hose connections and confidently filled the cooling system with 50-50 OAT recommended coolant. So far so good.
Reconnected the battery and turned the ignition key ~ engine fired up immediately ~ always satisfying when that happens. I allowed the engine to warm up and gave the throttle pedal an occasional prod to increase the revs... So far so good. After a while, the now warmed engine started to misfire at idle and would only clear when given higher revs... not good. Then I saw it. Imagine my disappointment after all my careful work to observe a pool of coolant under the engine on the gearbox side... even some coolant present trapped in the gearbox's webbing castings ... If that as not enough, the temperature gauge needle was reading a tad above the 'normal' position of just below midway... Oh dear ....
Getting dark now so used a torch to check where all that coolant was coming from.... lots of it...It was coming from the Cylinder Head well above the head gasket line ...
.... I'm now thinking cracked head probably caused by poor coolant mix freezing or no coolant at all, only water. I then used a small mirror to check more closely in the torch light and then pinpointed the source of the coolant escape route. The coolant was emerging under pressure from around and under the heads of the two 8mm bolts which secure the little alloy casting to the cylinder head where the top radiator hose locates along with heater hose and two engine management sensors. As soon as I placed an 8mm socket on the bolt heads it was obvious that both were loose ~ not even finger tight! I tightened both of these bolts carefully, restarted the engine and carefully topped up the lost coolant with neat OAT coolant. Bled the system again and after a few minutes, the engine settled to a rock steady idle with not a trace of any misfires... In fact the engine was behaving like a smooth turbine which is typical of any well maintained healthy K-Series.
Next day in better sunlight, I had a close look at the area where the coolant was escaping. There were several tell tale stains showing clearly where .... I took a couple of before and after images of this area. Note coloured escaping coolant stains :~
Now, if anyone has read this far, a simple question:~
Did this gasket actually 'fail' or was it first damaged by loss of coolant leading to engine overheating.
Another question ~ why were those two 8mm bolts so loose ? They are usually stuck firm if they've never been disturbed since leaving the factory production line. I shall contact the previous owner about it. If he had worked on the car and done this ( unlikely ) or entrusted the work to a pro-outfit, those loose bolts did not just happen ... someone had loosened them. Were that not the case, the previous owner would still be happily driving this low mileage Rover 45 which had been in his family for years ....
Just to add ~ that little Rover 45 is now running superbly ... Good eh ...
Rejoice all you non-believers.... :lol:
..
Festive Ferg said:
So what caused the misfire, John?
MISFIRE ... that produced an EML/MIL DTC code or two actually. These were :~P0300 Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
and ..
P0313 Misfire detected low fuel level.
The gauge read a tad over empty but I put three gallons of U/L in the tank, cleared the codes and right as rain since... Go figure... I've a new MG-R fuel filter ~ I'll fit that too as these later K-Series cars seem to be sensitive to any fuel supply issue ~ The Rover 25 recently bought for my son with HGF now rectified also had similar issues... The EML cam eback three tines after clearing it but, did not after a new MG-R fuel filter was fitted... Go figure.
2nd thoughts ... I never allow my fuel level to go low ... maybe some crud was pulled up from the tank or .... who knows... It's fine now.
Finally ... there's always one ... on PH... :lol:
yonex said:
But its still a Rover 45 John
Well spotted that man ... 10/10 for observation ... ..
John
I found out that the coolant loss on mine (leading to hgf) was due to the inlet manifold, a small pipe that was pressed into position had become unpressed.
So what ?
The coolant level sensor had been removed by rover, becasue of design issues, they kept going off when you went around corners.
It wasn't easy to just lift the bonnet and check the coolant, because the superb brains at rover had decided to use a black expansion tank, instead of a clear one, so no level sensor and the need to have a cold engine to sneak a look at coolant level, on an engine that coolant level is supposed to be critical !
That I'm afraid, is just typical "over"
None of the above explains the rest of the faliures I suffered
Rover cars were, I'm afraid, crap and unreliable compared to other marques, which is why people didn't buy them in sufficient numbers to keep the company going.
I cannot understand why, even with all the banter, you cannot see this.
You are obviously quite an accomplished mechanical chap, I'm not, I'm an electronics engineer, I don't want to return to the late seventies where you're under the bonnet every weekend maintaining a car (which is what my 75 felt like).
I found out that the coolant loss on mine (leading to hgf) was due to the inlet manifold, a small pipe that was pressed into position had become unpressed.
So what ?
The coolant level sensor had been removed by rover, becasue of design issues, they kept going off when you went around corners.
It wasn't easy to just lift the bonnet and check the coolant, because the superb brains at rover had decided to use a black expansion tank, instead of a clear one, so no level sensor and the need to have a cold engine to sneak a look at coolant level, on an engine that coolant level is supposed to be critical !
That I'm afraid, is just typical "over"
None of the above explains the rest of the faliures I suffered
Rover cars were, I'm afraid, crap and unreliable compared to other marques, which is why people didn't buy them in sufficient numbers to keep the company going.
I cannot understand why, even with all the banter, you cannot see this.
You are obviously quite an accomplished mechanical chap, I'm not, I'm an electronics engineer, I don't want to return to the late seventies where you're under the bonnet every weekend maintaining a car (which is what my 75 felt like).
MGJohn is highly regarded on other forums, he knows what he is talking about, so if you as an electrician engineer argue with him then you are a fool as he knows so much more. I worked in a MG Rover specialist garage and HGF is not as bad as people make it out to be, simple fix which is MLS, low coolant alarm, new style thermostat and general care for the cars. What annoys me is if a company like Ford have a HGF failure then no one cares but if it is a British car company then people hate that company, people are mad in this country. The new MG TF has a totally redesigned engine and has not had one single mechanical failure yet mainly because MG now have a thing called MONEY which MG Rover never had as P4 had all the money, the MINI is a Rover and so is the 1 series BMW design, I only know this because my uncle worked in chassis development at Longbridge. The K-series is a fantastic engine, its light and very powerful for its size.
Ford have worse problems then Rover had, Ford had the Delphi fuel injector problems, they had and still have the Duel Mass Flywheel problems and the most infamous of them all was the sudden acceleration which killed and injured many people and it still happens now, my uncle had it in his 10 plate Mondeo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eGTqKn_ihc
Watch this programe about Fords crimes in the past, its a disgrace and later on in it Ford say this about why they did not redesign their cars, "Human life is not worth $11 per vehicle", that is disgusting, but its Ford so it don't matter, HGF is worse then death of humans....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRr0ZuBsYmk&pla...
Look here, sudden acceleration on a S-Max but its a Ford so it don't matter...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPPJPwpeSnY&fea...
Ooh look a faulty injector on a S Max, maybe they do still use Delphi parts, shame they can't keep the PSA engines as standard without putting their awful Delphi parts on (if it is still Delphi).
Ford have worse problems then Rover had, Ford had the Delphi fuel injector problems, they had and still have the Duel Mass Flywheel problems and the most infamous of them all was the sudden acceleration which killed and injured many people and it still happens now, my uncle had it in his 10 plate Mondeo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eGTqKn_ihc
Watch this programe about Fords crimes in the past, its a disgrace and later on in it Ford say this about why they did not redesign their cars, "Human life is not worth $11 per vehicle", that is disgusting, but its Ford so it don't matter, HGF is worse then death of humans....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRr0ZuBsYmk&pla...
Look here, sudden acceleration on a S-Max but its a Ford so it don't matter...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPPJPwpeSnY&fea...
Ooh look a faulty injector on a S Max, maybe they do still use Delphi parts, shame they can't keep the PSA engines as standard without putting their awful Delphi parts on (if it is still Delphi).
Edited by steven211 on Saturday 18th December 01:22
Edited by steven211 on Saturday 18th December 01:26
Steve ... don't waste time with Nigel Worcs... his hatred of all things Rover and MG related is all too clear as his incessant anti-MG and Rover postings here on PH will confirm.
..
I am merely interested in cars with no formal mechanical training whatsoever. All self taught. I trained back in the late 1970s as a Computer Systems Analyst ... a subject I now find extremely boring and tiresome. I do have a keen analytical mind though ....
Getting these old cars back into rude health really appeals to my creative side...not just MGs and Rovers which are now my current preoccupation, but, over the years numerous other marques I have enjoyed breathing new life into where others have given up, often after spending not inconsiderable sums with pro-outfits who have not rectified their car's problems.
It's been my second hobby interest, second only to my other main interest outside my family of course, Natural History. I have never had a problem car beat me yet ~ but, there's always a first time.
Natural History ~ these frozen days are making it hard for wildlife to get by. I watched a group of superb Long Tailed Tits systematically explore the trees and shrubs in my garden today. The food I put out for other Garden Birds were soon pounced on by Black Headed Gulls which dived down at speed with spectacular flyin skills in the limited space available to these fast flyin birds... bretah taking stuff I had not witnessed befor. When they made off with some of the scraps they inturn were pounced on and chased by the larger and more powerful Herring and Lesser Black-Backed Gulls which could not easily visit the confines of the garden ~ they are simply too big and fast flying ~ although one or two did make a clumsy attempt.
There were other tits in the garden today ~ Blue and Coal Tits and a superb pair of Great Tits ... and here I do not only have in mind the shapely lass who came over asking about the problems she has with her car ... although she does qualify in that department ....
.
Well, helps to pass the tine..
..
I am merely interested in cars with no formal mechanical training whatsoever. All self taught. I trained back in the late 1970s as a Computer Systems Analyst ... a subject I now find extremely boring and tiresome. I do have a keen analytical mind though ....
Getting these old cars back into rude health really appeals to my creative side...not just MGs and Rovers which are now my current preoccupation, but, over the years numerous other marques I have enjoyed breathing new life into where others have given up, often after spending not inconsiderable sums with pro-outfits who have not rectified their car's problems.
It's been my second hobby interest, second only to my other main interest outside my family of course, Natural History. I have never had a problem car beat me yet ~ but, there's always a first time.
Natural History ~ these frozen days are making it hard for wildlife to get by. I watched a group of superb Long Tailed Tits systematically explore the trees and shrubs in my garden today. The food I put out for other Garden Birds were soon pounced on by Black Headed Gulls which dived down at speed with spectacular flyin skills in the limited space available to these fast flyin birds... bretah taking stuff I had not witnessed befor. When they made off with some of the scraps they inturn were pounced on and chased by the larger and more powerful Herring and Lesser Black-Backed Gulls which could not easily visit the confines of the garden ~ they are simply too big and fast flying ~ although one or two did make a clumsy attempt.
There were other tits in the garden today ~ Blue and Coal Tits and a superb pair of Great Tits ... and here I do not only have in mind the shapely lass who came over asking about the problems she has with her car ... although she does qualify in that department ....
.Well, helps to pass the tine..
It was actually 13,987 that the AA had to deal with. It is fair to say the last few posts have convinced me of how wrong I am, that looks a much better bet then buying a MX5. Especially this time of year - can't be more then 20 mins work in the snow and all the parts come free from the Rover Fairy.
So I take it all back and conclude "TADTS and the constant need for K-series head work - now all proved to be an interwebz myth".
Buy in confidence. In fact, buy twice.
So I take it all back and conclude "TADTS and the constant need for K-series head work - now all proved to be an interwebz myth".
Buy in confidence. In fact, buy twice.
LotusAlfaV6bloke said:
"the constant need for K-series head work"
This is absolutely irrefutably incorrect. Fix it properly, fix it once.The 'K', due MAINLY, but not exclusively, to a lack of investment in the processes involved in it's construction, will blow head gaskets. However, it is a lack of skill by those 'mechanics' entrusted with fixing it that leads to repeat failure.
its an old thread i know but i had to have my say.
ive had a f vvc for a while now and yes it was losing a little water.
cost me 500quid for an early n reg example with just under 40,000 miles on it. as most people do nowadays i did a lot of research first so nothing was going to be a suprise.
had loads of euroboxes over the years and as i drive a taxi for a living i fancied something with a little more character.
there are probably more reliable, better built motors out there but as i like making cars "my own" with a few subtle mods i thought for that sort of money id give it a go.
not been disappointed.
bang for buck it turns out to be an excellent car.
a £10 bottle of k seal sorted the leak for now (2 years now)and ill get round to the source of the leak in due course.
would happily have paid a grand for it. just as entertaining as the wifes mk1 mx5 to drive. th f isnt without its faults of course but when the sun is shining and theres a nice b road to blast down its pretty hard to beat.
good shed in my opinion.
ive had a f vvc for a while now and yes it was losing a little water.
cost me 500quid for an early n reg example with just under 40,000 miles on it. as most people do nowadays i did a lot of research first so nothing was going to be a suprise.
had loads of euroboxes over the years and as i drive a taxi for a living i fancied something with a little more character.
there are probably more reliable, better built motors out there but as i like making cars "my own" with a few subtle mods i thought for that sort of money id give it a go.
not been disappointed.
bang for buck it turns out to be an excellent car.
a £10 bottle of k seal sorted the leak for now (2 years now)and ill get round to the source of the leak in due course.
would happily have paid a grand for it. just as entertaining as the wifes mk1 mx5 to drive. th f isnt without its faults of course but when the sun is shining and theres a nice b road to blast down its pretty hard to beat.
good shed in my opinion.
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