RE: Unveiled: Caterham's Dramatic New SP/300.R

[Sam_68]

footsoldier said:

If they are making 25 a year, and 15 people buy them for track days, does that mean that it will be a one-make series with only 10 cars on grid in 2012? (or however else the numbers break down)

Presumably they will give precedence to people buying them to race and, if there's demand for additional cars from the trackday market, they'll build more than 25 a year?

Lotus expected to build around 400 Elises a year when the S1 was launched, but upped that 5-fold due to unexpected demand.

The flip side of that particular coin is that history is littered with one-make championships that failed to happen, or petered out after only a year or two due to lack of interest, and of cars that took lots of 'orders' at their motor show launches, which then failed to materialise, or the car enter prodcution even, for whatever reason (I'm still waiting for my Lotus M250 )

Of the people placing orders for the Caterola at the Autosport show with aspirations of racing them, only the terminally foolish would have done so without making those orders conditional upon Caterham delivering a minumum grid for the first year (indeed I would expect Caterham themselves to be responsible enough to make the orders provisional upon reaching a sensible minimum level of interest)?

The lessons to be drawn seem to be that pre-launch production estimates are just estimates and you shouldn't start counting your chickens until they're lining up on the grid for the 3rd or 4th year...

[James.S]

Sam_68 said:

footsoldier said:

If they are making 25 a year, and 15 people buy them for track days, does that mean that it will be a one-make series with only 10 cars on grid in 2012? (or however else the numbers break down)

Presumably they will give precedence to people buying them to race and, if there's demand for additional cars from the trackday market, they'll build more than 25 a year?

Lotus expected to build around 400 Elises a year when the S1 was launched, but upped that 5-fold due to unexpected demand.

The flip side of that particular coin is that history is littered with one-make championships that failed to happen, or petered out after only a year or two due to lack of interest, and of cars that took lots of 'orders' at their motor show launches, which then failed to materialise, or the car enter prodcution even, for whatever reason (I'm still waiting for my Lotus M250 )

Of the people placing orders for the Caterola at the Autosport show with aspirations of racing them, only the terminally foolish would have done so without making those orders conditional upon Caterham delivering a minumum grid for the first year (indeed I would expect Caterham themselves to be responsible enough to make the orders provisional upon reaching a sensible minimum level of interest)?

The lessons to be drawn seem to be that pre-launch production estimates are just estimates and you shouldn't start counting your chickens until they're lining up on the grid for the 3rd or 4th year...

Yet more pearls of wisdom gifted to the masses.....cheers dude.

[footsoldier]

Any news on budget costs (for racing)? Are dampers and springs fixed, but adjustable, will engine last a season, tyre life, etc? Seems like a fair bit of testing will be needed to get wings, springs and setups dialled in to each circuit.

[RTH]

Never believe reported sales at the racing car show........of anything.

[RTH]

footsoldier said:

Any news on budget costs (for racing)? Are dampers and springs fixed, but adjustable, will engine last a season, tyre life, etc? Seems like a fair bit of testing will be needed to get wings, springs and setups dialled in to each circuit.

Take it as read you will need a lot of family money.

[anonymous-user]

DonkeyApple said:

MonkeyMatt said:

Caterham need to be developing a new road car! with Noble and now Lotus heading upmarket there is a gap that they are perfecrly placed to fill!

Niches usually exist due to economics rather than oversight. IF there was a genuinely profitable market in there then Lotus and other low vol local manufacturers would be in there and aiming to stay there.

Only kit cars and mass producers can really sit in that gap in modern Britain.

I thought the reason Lotus were dropping the current Elise (£20-30k price bracket) was not because it isnt profitable but because it doesnt sit well with there new high end image?

[pw75]

RTH said:

Never believe reported sales at the racing car show........of anything.

lol, I understand the sentiment, but in this case the figures are accurate. I know 3 of them

[odyssey2200]

pw75 said:

RTH said:

Never believe reported sales at the racing car show........of anything.

lol, I understand the sentiment, but in this case the figures are accurate. I know 3 of them

Did you take deposits?

Having done more Motorshows than I care to remember I can assure you that a sale is not a sale until the commission has been spent.

[petery]

pw75 said:

RTH said:

Never believe reported sales at the racing car show........of anything.

lol, I understand the sentiment, but in this case the figures are accurate. I know 3 of them

And 2 of them have posted on this thread.

Another has posted on the thread in the Caterham forum.

[pw75]

odyssey2200 said:

pw75 said:

RTH said:

Never believe reported sales at the racing car show........of anything.

lol, I understand the sentiment, but in this case the figures are accurate. I know 3 of them

Did you take deposits?

Having done more Motorshows than I care to remember I can assure you that a sale is not a sale until the commission has been spent.

Can't speak for the ones I don't know about, but the ones I do I'm fairly sure the cheques won't bounce.

[otolith]

Lotus aren't moving the Elise upmarket, prices will be similar to the Elise R pricing. They are vacating the niche, though, by aiming at more luxury and "lifestyle" oriented buyers than driving enthusiasts. That's if the rumours of a U turn are false.

[DAW360]

Good to read the healthy debate, some very good, some er.......not so clever!

However, I am one of those that has paid my deposit and thought it may help to explain why.

1/ It looks awesome
2/ I enjoy (well run) single make racing
3/ Caterham run very good "single make" series
4/ In my experience they are VERY supportive, especially during development of a new car, so I trust them.

Simples!

Roll on 2012!!!

[sfaulds]

Dave, move on - this is no place for people who actually know anything about the car, let alone the people that have bought one. You'll just be called a liar and a fool by people who'd need therapy if they moved more than 10ft from a keyboard.

[edo]

Pugsey said:

Hugely disappointing. All these rumours had me thinking an exciting new road car was in the wings.

+1

Cant help thinking they would have done better to head for the Elise end of the market, or even into mx5/boxster territory.

[DonkeyApple]

MonkeyMatt said:

DonkeyApple said:

MonkeyMatt said:

Caterham need to be developing a new road car! with Noble and now Lotus heading upmarket there is a gap that they are perfecrly placed to fill!

Niches usually exist due to economics rather than oversight. IF there was a genuinely profitable market in there then Lotus and other low vol local manufacturers would be in there and aiming to stay there.

Only kit cars and mass producers can really sit in that gap in modern Britain.

I thought the reason Lotus were dropping the current Elise (£20-30k price bracket) was not because it isnt profitable but because it doesnt sit well with there new high end image?

There may be an element of this but I don't believe they actually much, if any real profit from the sale of these cars and the market would appear pretty saturated as I believe that production numbers have dropped off. If it was a great area to operate in then they would stay there and there would be others in there as well.

Sadly, prices need to be higher to get enough margin to build a sustainable revenue model.

I can't see them releasing a license for a 3rd party to build them until their new stuff has been out for some time and gained solid traction. It would be suicide to do so.

[Dan M]

Over the weekend I was reading an old Evo magazine (Dec 2003) about the 'new' car from Caterham called the SV-R. It was developed with Reynard and there was much debate over whether to go front or mid-engined. It was decided front-engined was the way to go back then and a tweaked Seven appeared.

Maybe someone at Caterham dusted off the old mid-engined plans and started thinking...

[pw75]

Dan M said:

Maybe someone at Caterham dusted off the old mid-engined plans and started thinking...

Yup. It was the cleaner. She has been working 120 hour weeks in between cleaning the factory and working out of a filing cupboard in ansars office. Not sure how she has done it to be honest but its a top draw effort.

[TonyHetherington]

Dan M said:

Over the weekend I was reading an old Evo magazine (Dec 2003) about the 'new' car from Caterham called the SV-R. It was developed with Reynard and there was much debate over whether to go front or mid-engined. It was decided front-engined was the way to go back then and a tweaked Seven appeared.

Maybe someone at Caterham dusted off the old mid-engined plans and started thinking...

Wasn't that the car they made a TV programme about? (or the designing of it, rather, because I seem to recall Reynard went under and so the car never happened?!)

[RTH]

otolith said:

Lotus aren't moving the Elise upmarket, prices will be similar to the Elise R pricing. They are vacating the niche, though, by aiming at more luxury and "lifestyle" oriented buyers than driving enthusiasts. That's if the rumours of a U turn are false.

Today including the new rate of VAT the Lotus Elise is on sale new from £27400

[otolith]

RTH said:

otolith said:

Lotus aren't moving the Elise upmarket, prices will be similar to the Elise R pricing. They are vacating the niche, though, by aiming at more luxury and "lifestyle" oriented buyers than driving enthusiasts. That's if the rumours of a U turn are false.

Today including the new rate of VAT the Lotus Elise is on sale new from £27400

Yes, for the 1.6 134bhp version. I was responding to:

MonkeyMatt said:

I thought the reason Lotus were dropping the current Elise (£20-30k price bracket)

because, entry level and somewhat niche-within-a-niche 1.6 apart, the Elise has really been a 30k+ car for some time.