RE: Unveiled: Caterham's Dramatic New SP/300.R
Discussion
ArosaMike said:
For all those who are saying they wish Caterham had built a road car, I ask this question:
"Would you have bought one?"
That is....would you have bought something similar to a Caterham 21 for £30,000 instead of another Seven or an Elise right now if they'd have launched one?
Possibly, yes. I've long been a Caterham fan (I've owned 2 and a half of them) but want something more weatherproof these days, preferably with a/c, more suited to a long motorway blast than a Se7en, but no more compromises than that. The 21 is nearly perfect but might be even better if based on the CSR chassis, and underwent a bit of development. A V6, I5 or something turbo-charged would be nice too."Would you have bought one?"
That is....would you have bought something similar to a Caterham 21 for £30,000 instead of another Seven or an Elise right now if they'd have launched one?
Mars said:
ArosaMike said:
For all those who are saying they wish Caterham had built a road car, I ask this question:
"Would you have bought one?"
That is....would you have bought something similar to a Caterham 21 for £30,000 instead of another Seven or an Elise right now if they'd have launched one?
Possibly, yes. I've long been a Caterham fan (I've owned 2 and a half of them) but want something more weatherproof these days, preferably with a/c, more suited to a long motorway blast than a Se7en, but no more compromises than that. The 21 is nearly perfect but might be even better if based on the CSR chassis, and underwent a bit of development. A V6, I5 or something turbo-charged would be nice too."Would you have bought one?"
That is....would you have bought something similar to a Caterham 21 for £30,000 instead of another Seven or an Elise right now if they'd have launched one?
Mars said:
I like them too, but I would prefer something about half a tonne lighter and more "kit car". I like kits. You can service them at the roadside when you're broken down in the middle of nowhere. That said, you probably wuldn't be broken down in a Boxster. 
Anyway, Cerbera next.
As any true PHer knows, breaking down is half the fun Anyway, Cerbera next.
ArosaMike said:
For all those who are saying they wish Caterham had built a road car, I ask this question:
"Would you have bought one?"
I can't imagine what I will eventually replace my Elise with if (as looks likely) Lotus are going to stop making that kind of car. If Caterham start building that kind of car, yes, that would become most likely candidate. "Would you have bought one?"
Lotus have already proved though that you can't make a profit from the Elise, so they couldn't just carry on making that car without significant changes. Bear in mind too that there are only 3 perminent engineers at Caterham, and Lotus has hundreds.
Yes, you can develop a car with a small team, but you need a huge amount of cash and they'd have to be looking at some pretty huge sales volumes to justify the investment. Even assuming they used as many off the shelf parts as possible, they would still have to crash test, homologate and tool plenty of other components. A fairly simple mould tool for something costs £50k-100k, and for something like a large metal casting, you could be looking at half a million.
Whilst I appreciate there are a few people who are enthusiasts out there, there simply isn't enough to make it financially viable. You may say now, oh yes, I'm a Caterham enthusiast and I just want a Seven with better weather protection, but realistically, when it comes down to it, you'll be faced with the following choice.
1) £30-35k for a UK made sports car which may handle well but lacks polish and exhibits a lot of off the shelf components and has a fair few teathing problems due to lack of investment and development
2) £30-35k for a small, mid engined German sports car which will do 150k miles without a stutter, handles well and has excellent fit and finish with bespoke components.
Faced with that option, I suspect you may struggle to justify the former. For anyone claiming not to, look at the Evora/911. The Evora is undoubtably a really great handling car. EVO voted it COTY in 2009 and yet, competing directly against the 911 Carerra it just doesn't make sense and the sales volumes back that up.
Yes, you can develop a car with a small team, but you need a huge amount of cash and they'd have to be looking at some pretty huge sales volumes to justify the investment. Even assuming they used as many off the shelf parts as possible, they would still have to crash test, homologate and tool plenty of other components. A fairly simple mould tool for something costs £50k-100k, and for something like a large metal casting, you could be looking at half a million.
Whilst I appreciate there are a few people who are enthusiasts out there, there simply isn't enough to make it financially viable. You may say now, oh yes, I'm a Caterham enthusiast and I just want a Seven with better weather protection, but realistically, when it comes down to it, you'll be faced with the following choice.
1) £30-35k for a UK made sports car which may handle well but lacks polish and exhibits a lot of off the shelf components and has a fair few teathing problems due to lack of investment and development
2) £30-35k for a small, mid engined German sports car which will do 150k miles without a stutter, handles well and has excellent fit and finish with bespoke components.
Faced with that option, I suspect you may struggle to justify the former. For anyone claiming not to, look at the Evora/911. The Evora is undoubtably a really great handling car. EVO voted it COTY in 2009 and yet, competing directly against the 911 Carerra it just doesn't make sense and the sales volumes back that up.
otolith said:
ArosaMike said:
Lotus have already proved though that you they can't make a profit from the Elise
If nobody built the kinds of car that Lotus have failed to make a profit on, the automotive landscape would be very much reduced.odyssey2200 said:
otolith said:
ArosaMike said:
Lotus have already proved though that you they can't make a profit from the Elise
If nobody built the kinds of car that Lotus have failed to make a profit on, the automotive landscape would be very much reduced.otolith said:
ArosaMike said:
Lotus have already proved though that you they can't make a profit from the Elise
If nobody built the kinds of car that Lotus have failed to make a profit on, the automotive landscape would be very much reduced.If everyone makes the kind of cars that fail to make a profit, they'll all go the same way as MG Rover. Doesn't matter how amazing your product is....if it doesn't sell, you'll be out of business before you can say Nikolai Smolenski.....
What could Caterham do different that Lotus don't?! Building a proper automated production line would probably be the only way you could get a megre profit, and let's be honest. The workshop in Dartford is hardly going to be more efficient than a reasonably well organised workshop in Hethel. The fact of the matter is, the Elise uses a lot of manufacturing techniques that are very expensive. Aluminum hydroformed extrusions and massive fibreglass mouldings are not in the least bit cost effective.
Edited by ArosaMike on Monday 17th January 17:59
ArosaMike said:
otolith said:
ArosaMike said:
Lotus have already proved though that you they can't make a profit from the Elise
If nobody built the kinds of car that Lotus have failed to make a profit on, the automotive landscape would be very much reduced.If everyone makes the kind of cars that fail to make a profit, they'll all go the same way as MG Rover. Doesn't matter how amazing your product is....if it doesn't sell, you'll be out of business before you can say Nikolai Smolenski.....
The Elise, on the other hand, is an astonishingly good car. The only reason for its lack of success is purely the size of the market it's addressing.
RobM77 said:
The only reason for its lack of success is purely the size of the market it's addressing.
Which is why they have to go after the hair product punters that are dotted in most countries and have cash/debt to lob about as long as something has the right label/badge.It's a sad state of affairs but for these cars to be available to enthusiasts they have to be able to be sold to mohito sipping, metrosexuals on a global scale and endorsed by the correct two bit so called celeb.
If Caterham were to try and follow into this niche they would almost certainly need to follow suit, so let's thank the lucky stars they don't.
DonkeyApple said:
Which is why they have to go after the hair product punters that are dotted in most countries and have cash/debt to lob about as long as something has the right label/badge.
It's a sad state of affairs but for these cars to be available to enthusiasts they have to be able to be sold to mohito sipping, metrosexuals on a global scale and endorsed by the correct two bit so called celeb.
If Caterham were to try and follow into this niche they would almost certainly need to follow suit, so let's thank the lucky stars they don't.
There was an interesting bit by Harry Metcalfe about Cayennes and other luxury SUVs in the current Evo.It's a sad state of affairs but for these cars to be available to enthusiasts they have to be able to be sold to mohito sipping, metrosexuals on a global scale and endorsed by the correct two bit so called celeb.
If Caterham were to try and follow into this niche they would almost certainly need to follow suit, so let's thank the lucky stars they don't.
"Interesting" as in "depressing".
From a global perspective, people with money want luxury.
DonkeyApple said:
RobM77 said:
The only reason for its lack of success is purely the size of the market it's addressing.
Which is why they have to go after the hair product punters that are dotted in most countries and have cash/debt to lob about as long as something has the right label/badge.It's a sad state of affairs but for these cars to be available to enthusiasts they have to be able to be sold to mohito sipping, metrosexuals on a global scale and endorsed by the correct two bit so called celeb.
If Caterham were to try and follow into this niche they would almost certainly need to follow suit, so let's thank the lucky stars they don't.
ArosaMike said:
otolith said:
ArosaMike said:
Lotus have already proved though that you they can't make a profit from the Elise
If nobody built the kinds of car that Lotus have failed to make a profit on, the automotive landscape would be very much reduced.If everyone makes the kind of cars that fail to make a profit, they'll all go the same way as MG Rover. Doesn't matter how amazing your product is....if it doesn't sell, you'll be out of business before you can say Nikolai Smolenski.....
The point is simply that just because Lotus can't make a commercial success of a niche doesn't mean that nobody can.
Also, it doesn't look to me from their sales predictions as if Bahar's shiny new future for Lotus requires the selling of many more Elises than they do now, for much more money. Lotus needs volume, but it looks to me as if that is to be achieved through the new product lines. The Elise niche alone may not be enough to sustain a company like Lotus, but that is not the same as saying that it is not enough to support a company unlike Lotus, nor that it would not be worth entering for a company which will not need to rely on that niche alone.
ArosaMike said:
Lotus have already proved though that you can't make a profit from the Elise, so they couldn't just carry on making that car without significant changes. Bear in mind too that there are only 3 perminent engineers at Caterham, and Lotus has hundreds.....and other stuff
Spot on. 
Was going to write something similar to address all of the "disappointed its not a new Caterham Elise/Caterham TVR/Caterham Zolfe/Caterham 7 with a roof etc" crowd.
Caterham are doing the right thing here by ignoring all the vocal 'enthusiasts' that are full of dream cars and automotive business strategy but will go strangely quiet...and keep their chequebooks firmly shut... the day Caterham or anyone else delivers what they say they want.
See the profile of a certain 'Mr 68' for details
otolith said:
MG Rover made quite a range of cars in the process of going out of business - does that tell you that it is impossible to turn a profit making those kinds of cars, or that MG Rover was poorly run?
The point is simply that just because Lotus can't make a commercial success of a niche doesn't mean that nobody can.
Making and developing are two very different things though. Their entire range was based on 15-20 year old designs and they invested very little in tooling or development, and the money they spent on development was very poorly judged. The last two projects they worked on were the MG-SV (effectively a Qvale Mangusta) and the MG-75 V8. Both were great enthusiasts cars (and as an engineer, working on either would have undoubtably been great fun), but commercially they were useless. You simply can't make money from medium value enthusiasts cars that have massive development costs. There's just no way you get any of the money back from development.The point is simply that just because Lotus can't make a commercial success of a niche doesn't mean that nobody can.
The issue with the Elise is the manufacturing methods needed to make it are far too labour intensive and expensive. The fundamental cost of the car is too high to make it economically viable. It says it all that the only other cars in production that use hydroform chassis' are expensive Supercars. I doubt anyone apart from a large scale manufacturer of a similar scale to VAG or Ford could ever turn any decent profit from the Elise architecture. Why else do you think small kit car and track car manufacturers like Caterham, Radical and Ginetta stick to steel space frames and Aluminium monocoques?
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