RE: Unveiled: Caterham's Dramatic New SP/300.R
Discussion
OK......for those that care this is only my second post.......but OH MY GOD!
Do any of you actually read what you write, what happened to think before you speak???!! For the sake of my blood pressure, my sanity and my hope for the human race I now declare.....this is my last post!
I'm normal, get me out of here!!!!!!
Goodbye all.
Do any of you actually read what you write, what happened to think before you speak???!! For the sake of my blood pressure, my sanity and my hope for the human race I now declare.....this is my last post!
I'm normal, get me out of here!!!!!!
Goodbye all.
HundredthIdiot said:
DonkeyApple said:
Which is why they have to go after the hair product punters that are dotted in most countries and have cash/debt to lob about as long as something has the right label/badge.
It's a sad state of affairs but for these cars to be available to enthusiasts they have to be able to be sold to mohito sipping, metrosexuals on a global scale and endorsed by the correct two bit so called celeb.
If Caterham were to try and follow into this niche they would almost certainly need to follow suit, so let's thank the lucky stars they don't.
There was an interesting bit by Harry Metcalfe about Cayennes and other luxury SUVs in the current Evo.It's a sad state of affairs but for these cars to be available to enthusiasts they have to be able to be sold to mohito sipping, metrosexuals on a global scale and endorsed by the correct two bit so called celeb.
If Caterham were to try and follow into this niche they would almost certainly need to follow suit, so let's thank the lucky stars they don't.
"Interesting" as in "depressing".
From a global perspective, people with money want luxury.
I don't think Harry Enfield relaised when he created Loadsa Money that he wasn't parodying a decade but an entire global phenomanon.
We've reached a point where a company dare not even sell goods at fair value as their client base would stop buying.
And sadly, if companies wish to sell products globally then they have to join this complete farce.
I hope everyone appreciates just how f
king lucky we are that something like Caterham still exists in this current world. That they can still make the product that they do and sell it. Most brands have had to pander to the change and we should be grateful that there is enough sanity left in little pockets in this country that allows Caterham to exist.ArosaMike said:
otolith said:
MG Rover made quite a range of cars in the process of going out of business - does that tell you that it is impossible to turn a profit making those kinds of cars, or that MG Rover was poorly run?
The point is simply that just because Lotus can't make a commercial success of a niche doesn't mean that nobody can.
Making and developing are two very different things though. Their entire range was based on 15-20 year old designs and they invested very little in tooling or development, and the money they spent on development was very poorly judged. The last two projects they worked on were the MG-SV (effectively a Qvale Mangusta) and the MG-75 V8. Both were great enthusiasts cars (and as an engineer, working on either would have undoubtably been great fun), but commercially they were useless. You simply can't make money from medium value enthusiasts cars that have massive development costs. There's just no way you get any of the money back from development.The point is simply that just because Lotus can't make a commercial success of a niche doesn't mean that nobody can.
The issue with the Elise is the manufacturing methods needed to make it are far too labour intensive and expensive. The fundamental cost of the car is too high to make it economically viable. It says it all that the only other cars in production that use hydroform chassis' are expensive Supercars. I doubt anyone apart from a large scale manufacturer of a similar scale to VAG or Ford could ever turn any decent profit from the Elise architecture. Why else do you think small kit car and track car manufacturers like Caterham, Radical and Ginetta stick to steel space frames and Aluminium monocoques?
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... in Reading Services
odyssey2200 said:
Not quite sure I understand? The car in those pictures looks like your typical average uk kit car? If you're suggesting that would be a suitable car for Caterham to produce, I think it's pretty unlikely. Cars like that never see commercial success. The engineering on them is really pretty basic, and they lack a great deal of development and polish. I'm not belittling the effort people put in to them, but 90% of the time, they're just an enthusiasts project that has been turned in to a business. They're not valid business prospects as it's effectively just a project car that someone has tried to turn in to a production car.
Whilst the general quality is definitely impressive for a kit, the basis for a refined and reliable production car just isn't there. I can tell you as an automotive engineer that a lot of fundamental understanding is missing from the design and to achieve the level of quality you need for a good road car would require a complete redesign of the suspension and even then, a lot of time needs to be spent tuning rubber bushes, geometry and durability.
If you look at even an Elise's front suspension, there's a lot of tooling investment involved and the fundamentals are considerably better to begin with:
Overall, I think Caterham realise from their experience with the 21 that they don't have the money or resource to develop a successful road car and they've done the right thing and focussed on where they can make money and be at the top of their game.
I think the general public generally don't realise the effort involved in making a good road car. I'm not trying to be condecending here....there's no reason that anyone not involved in automotive engineering should know what's involved as frankly a lot of of it's pretty tedious (as I'm sure I'm demonstrating), but I think there's plenty of evidence out there that shows that it takes a lot of careful planning and even more money to produce a good road car. Whilst many people wheel out TVR as some kind of bastion of how it can be done on the cheap, you have to remember that they were clever with their marketing. Towards the end, they spent a lot of money and a lot of time developing their cars. They also had a formula they could stick to using developments of their previous technology.
Be thankful that Caterham are wise enough not to waste money developing another road car and be thankful that the 7 still exists!
Edited by ArosaMike on Tuesday 18th January 21:22
I was refering to people suggesting that a company could just remake the Elise and make money off it though. The aluminium chassis of that car you've referred to is about as similar to an Elise chassis as a VW Golf is to a Radical. It may be made of the same material, but the construction couldn't really be more different. And needless to say, I haven't seen any accounts for this other car, so until they make significant profit from it, my point still stands!
I have to say, although it may not be available as a kit car, the 'engineering' is very much from the kit car world. There are a multitude of errors with that front suspension which are caused by a fundamental lack of understanding. Whilst it's actually not that difficult to make a car handle, making it durable an refined require a lot more time, and I can tell you that with that front suspension, they'll struggle to get either. These are precisely the problems faced by anyone designing a car from scratch. You need experience and a volume of people to design a car that will be cheap to make, reliable, well engineered and refined. The Mastretta is a clear example of what happens when you don't!
I have to say, although it may not be available as a kit car, the 'engineering' is very much from the kit car world. There are a multitude of errors with that front suspension which are caused by a fundamental lack of understanding. Whilst it's actually not that difficult to make a car handle, making it durable an refined require a lot more time, and I can tell you that with that front suspension, they'll struggle to get either. These are precisely the problems faced by anyone designing a car from scratch. You need experience and a volume of people to design a car that will be cheap to make, reliable, well engineered and refined. The Mastretta is a clear example of what happens when you don't!
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff