RE: Unveiled: Caterham's Dramatic New SP/300.R
Discussion
This has me both excited and disappointed at the same time.
The car looks stunning and, looking at the spec, I fully expect it to cost northwards of £70 in line with similar Radical / Juno / Ligier etc offerings. The detailing on it is exquisite - just look at the diffuser, dive planes, exhaust cowlings and Stack wheel dash. Awesome.
So what if it's possibly more Lola than Caterham? It's a common type of engineering arrangement. I think the styling and branding they've gone for works very well. Partnering with Lola worked for Aston in LMP1 didn't it (initial arguments notwithstanding)? So why shouldn't it work well for Caterham too?
MSA requires around 20 cars I think for championship status to be granted, so that might be pushing things for a single make 2012 series, although if Caterham introduced a similar format to the Academy (ie car and races all for a set price, possibly including team support), it might help sell a few.
Disappointed because, like a couple of other posts on here, it would have been nice to see Caterham go for a more road focused GT-style car that was relevant to the current economic climate. Let's be honest - this is an out and out race car; not a Sunday afternoon or track car. Chevron and Ginetta have both built GT racecars that could be adapted for the road fairly easily, but a prototype car is never going to be fun on the Queen's Highway unless you're some kind of masochist.
Verdict? If I could secure sponsor's money to race one, I'd be in one tomorrow...
The car looks stunning and, looking at the spec, I fully expect it to cost northwards of £70 in line with similar Radical / Juno / Ligier etc offerings. The detailing on it is exquisite - just look at the diffuser, dive planes, exhaust cowlings and Stack wheel dash. Awesome.
So what if it's possibly more Lola than Caterham? It's a common type of engineering arrangement. I think the styling and branding they've gone for works very well. Partnering with Lola worked for Aston in LMP1 didn't it (initial arguments notwithstanding)? So why shouldn't it work well for Caterham too?
MSA requires around 20 cars I think for championship status to be granted, so that might be pushing things for a single make 2012 series, although if Caterham introduced a similar format to the Academy (ie car and races all for a set price, possibly including team support), it might help sell a few.
Disappointed because, like a couple of other posts on here, it would have been nice to see Caterham go for a more road focused GT-style car that was relevant to the current economic climate. Let's be honest - this is an out and out race car; not a Sunday afternoon or track car. Chevron and Ginetta have both built GT racecars that could be adapted for the road fairly easily, but a prototype car is never going to be fun on the Queen's Highway unless you're some kind of masochist.
Verdict? If I could secure sponsor's money to race one, I'd be in one tomorrow...
Opportunity is rife in these tight times for a dual (proper) road cum track car at the right price. It 'would' sell.
This Caterham, despite the secrecy, is just a show gimmick. Here today, sell a few, gone tomorrow. Seen it all before.
Missed opportunity.
Ginetta has been stealing the limelight every year recently, both in race series and launches at the Autosport shows, and many were hoping for a long-awaited 'genuine' road (+ track) car. This time they've just ploughed on with the new G55. So, basically, it's still all race and track, and no road cars - the ex Farbio is excellent, but doesn't fit the bill: too expensive.
Unless, of course, they have something up their sleeve and unannounced, will give the show a miss this time.
This Caterham, despite the secrecy, is just a show gimmick. Here today, sell a few, gone tomorrow. Seen it all before.
Missed opportunity.
Ginetta has been stealing the limelight every year recently, both in race series and launches at the Autosport shows, and many were hoping for a long-awaited 'genuine' road (+ track) car. This time they've just ploughed on with the new G55. So, basically, it's still all race and track, and no road cars - the ex Farbio is excellent, but doesn't fit the bill: too expensive.
Unless, of course, they have something up their sleeve and unannounced, will give the show a miss this time.
It's just a Lola with a Caterham badge on. Totally irrelevant for 99% of existing Caterham owners, only relevant for existing Caterham racers wanting to move up in the racing world. Not irrelevant in the big scheme of motor racing though, good luck to them. I am just dissapointed it's not a road car, even if it was just a £25k 750kg Caterham-badged S1 Lotus Elise, getting back to the roots Lotus seem to have abandoned
EDLT said:
Kev M said:
One make race series starting in 2012 and they hope to make 25 a year? That's going to be a pretty small starting grid isn't it?
You can rent cars in other Caterham series iirc, this will probably be the same.
RobM77 said:
mattmurdock said:
The current bottom of the range is the SR4 CS (which is not a direct competitor for the Caterham, that would be the SR3) which is probably around £35k to £40k + VAT.
The SR3 (as it indicates in the Pistonheads article) is £67k + VAT without any options.
Doesn't this new Caterham sit between the SR3 and SR8; in power at least?The SR3 (as it indicates in the Pistonheads article) is £67k + VAT without any options.
Until the final specs on both are released, will be hard to tell if the £7k price difference means the Caterham is well priced or the Radical is too expensive
DonkeyApple said:
If there is such a demand for a road car why hasn't a 3rd party put a different body on a CSR?
I doubt Caterham would license it. To be honest, I'm not sure there is this huge demand for a hardcore road car. The CSR in its present form is £40k, and £50k for a coupé version would be silly with the Cayman S around and used Evoras and 911s. It would fill the slot left by Noble, and was that hugely profitable? Perhaps a few people like us would buy them, but as Lotus and Noble proved, you can't just serve a small niche market like that and make that much of a profit.The Caterham racing scene is full of people who could afford to race a £70k car such as this, so they've made a smart move concentrating the new car around that I think.
I know I've mentioned it twice already, but I do remain a little confused as to where this car fits in with the Sports 2000 Duratec (and Lola make one of those for customers too, or at least they did), which seems to offer the same thing with less power for massively less purchase cost, and an already very well established race series. I can only assume this new car has a better aero package and is more SR8/VdV in structure and a big step up from Sports 2000? The key element is no doubt the road car engine sat in the back; I would dearly like to race a Radical, but the running costs put me off, and I think most of those high costs are based around the high revving bike engines that they run.
I'm also a little unsure whether these cars will have the draw of 7 racing, because 7 racing's three abreast melé, which attracts so many people to the categories, is based around the lack of aerodynamics, modest grip and longer braking distances.
However, in answer to both the above questions, Caterham run their race series very well indeed, and I think many Caterham racers would choose to upgrade to racing this new car in preference to other series mainly due to familiarity and satisfaction with Caterham already. I was also surprised how few Caterham racers dreamt of racing single seaters like I did, and most see themselves moving on to sports cars, in fact many have with great success in sports cars. Ergo, I think this car will be a good racing success. As a Caterham fan, I hope it will at least!
RobM77 said:
DonkeyApple said:
If there is such a demand for a road car why hasn't a 3rd party put a different body on a CSR?
I doubt Caterham would license it. To be honest, I'm not sure there is this huge demand for a hardcore road car. The CSR in its present form is £40k, and £50k for a coupé version would be silly with the Cayman S around and used Evoras and 911s. It would fill the slot left by Noble, and was that hugely profitable? Perhaps a few people like us would buy them, but as Lotus and Noble proved, you can't just serve a small niche market like that and make that much of a profit.The Caterham racing scene is full of people who could afford to race a £70k car such as this, so they've made a smart move concentrating the new car around that I think.
I know I've mentioned it twice already, but I do remain a little confused as to where this car fits in with the Sports 2000 Duratec (and Lola make one of those for customers too, or at least they did), which seems to offer the same thing with less power for massively less purchase cost, and an already very well established race series. I can only assume this new car has a better aero package and is more SR8/VdV in structure and a big step up from Sports 2000? The key element is no doubt the road car engine sat in the back; I would dearly like to race a Radical, but the running costs put me off, and I think most of those high costs are based around the high revving bike engines that they run.
I'm also a little unsure whether these cars will have the draw of 7 racing, because 7 racing's three abreast melé, which attracts so many people to the categories, is based around the lack of aerodynamics, modest grip and longer braking distances.
However, in answer to both the above questions, Caterham run their race series very well indeed, and I think many Caterham racers would choose to upgrade to racing this new car in preference to other series mainly due to familiarity and satisfaction with Caterham already. I was also surprised how few Caterham racers dreamt of racing single seaters like I did, and most see themselves moving on to sports cars, in fact many have with great success in sports cars. Ergo, I think this car will be a good racing success. As a Caterham fan, I hope it will at least!
Putting the CSR to one side and just looking at all the old standard Caterhams that are out there, fitting a different more modern looking body to one of those wouldn't be difficult to do if there were the demand for that type of thing.
Companies have to produce a product that can be sold with sufficient margin to remain in business and must target people with the money. This race car seems more logical than a risky road car, where let's face it there is no sign of any real demand in existance as proven by the fact no one is building such a product. However, the track car market is more than well enough proven to be sustainable if you get the product right.
DonkeyApple said:
Putting the CSR to one side and just looking at all the old standard Caterhams that are out there, fitting a different more modern looking body to one of those wouldn't be difficult to do if there were the demand for that type of thing.
Perhaps because the people who would want something like that have been able to buy an Elise/Exige.Works for me. I can see it proving popular enough as a next step for Caterham racers and the upper end of trackday warriors, stemming the slow bleed of buyer/owners over to Radical. It should also make an interesting racing series. What will be interesting is how they might add new classes if the series does indeed take off. It doesn't sound there would be a large amount of tuning headroom on the SC Duratec. Maybe a 175 or 210 bhp entry series once the development has been ammortised? Who knows?
I like it though
Martyn
I like it though
Martyn
ravon said:
Assume you can't take a broken aluminium honeycomb tub to Arch Motors for a cheap fix?
I would assume you'd take it 500 yards up St Peters Road to Lola for an expensive fix ravon said:
RobM77, How much was the Lola with a N/A Duratec selling for please ?
POA, but from [my admittedly very poor!] memory it was around £30k without the engine. The Sports 2000 website details the engine requirements, which from memory are a standard Duratec for a couple of grand, plus one of their kits, which includes dry sump, gearbox and a few other bits for about £1000-£2000. 200bhp and 475kg with mild downforce. Great racing.Here's Lola's brochure for the car.
http://www.sports2000-srcc.com/pdfs/B07_90brochure...
I'm just surprised that nobody's mentioned this car yet, as it is very similar in design and execution to the new Caterham car, and has the same engine in n/a form. Judging by the radically different price (pun intended!), I'm guessing that the aero package and chassis is far more advanced on the new Caterham car. S2000s (and Radicals?) are tubular space frame IIRC, whereas didn't someone say this new car is some sort of box chassis?
Such a shame that it ended up looking like that! I'm sure It'll be a great track weapon but as a road car it'll be pants. I was looking forward to something a bit different but all we got was another Radical. Caterham have had 30 years to design something that will sit along side/replace the '7'. I was hoping for something more along the lines of what Ariel & KTM have done except What we got a Lola track day car that will be trailered to the track by wealthy bankers.
Thanks Rob, rumor has it that it is the self same Lola with a new body !
It's a folded and bonded honeycomb monoque. Hence a good bit lighter than Radical's very practical, but low tech spaceframe.
Interesting to see the price difference, but presumably Caterham's Management had to make a very good case to their venture capital masters. My guess would be that everything is done by Lola, Caterham just doing the selling and adding to their bottom line.
It's a bit of an odd ball, if you look at the pictures of the tub in the Lola PDF, you can see the top and bottom wishbones attach in the same vertical plain, which would seem to me limits room for much scope in terms on unequal length wishbones.
It's a folded and bonded honeycomb monoque. Hence a good bit lighter than Radical's very practical, but low tech spaceframe.
Interesting to see the price difference, but presumably Caterham's Management had to make a very good case to their venture capital masters. My guess would be that everything is done by Lola, Caterham just doing the selling and adding to their bottom line.
It's a bit of an odd ball, if you look at the pictures of the tub in the Lola PDF, you can see the top and bottom wishbones attach in the same vertical plain, which would seem to me limits room for much scope in terms on unequal length wishbones.
MKnight702 said:
Almost twice the expected price of a Reynard Inverter, and three times the price of the road legal Westfield XTR (2 or 4 and just look at how many of those have been sold.)
Sorry Caterham, too much and too late.
Again, it's a proper sports prototype. Similar cars (Norma/Ligier/Juno) all are 70-80k. The kit that goes to make up these things doesn't come cheap! With the best will in the world, the XTR cars are very, very different things and are more comparable with Radical Clubsports than this. A different league altogether.Sorry Caterham, too much and too late.
I'm disappointed you're all disappointed! But it doesn't surprise me because the overwhelming vibe on these forums is always negative. Something to do with people spending too much time alone in front of their computers....!
However, I think this car looks absolutely sensational. I think it is a very brave and commendable move by Caterham. However, I also think Caterham know exactly what they are doing and so the bravery side of things isn't really an issue as I am sure they have done their homework. All I can say is thank you Caterham, because for me there was a big gap in the market and you have filled it. I doubt it will be that hard to find another 19 people who agree with me. I am going to buy one for sure and I can think of a handful of others that won't need too much persuasion. It is the perfect step up for the experienced Caterham racer who is looking to go onto another challenge.
If you look at the alternatives, there are downsides to every option. Radical make cars that break all the time and they are effectively keeping their business alive by supplying an endless stream of parts to customers. I have a freind who raced in the UK Cup Radical series and he spent the same doing that as he did racing in the Carrera Cup. It is too expensive is the general gist. They rely on their cars being unreliable.
Then you have the CN cars and Vdev/Speed series etc. Again very expensive and it isn't one make. The organisers are unknown to must of us as well. Everybody who has raced in Caterhams knows how well this is executed so it is an obvious advantage over the competition. It will also be Caterhams new baby and their premier series so it will get the treatment it deserves.
In summary it is a one make series, with a great car and run by a proper bunch of people. What is not to like?
Thank you again Caterham and see you in 2012, well see you tomorrow actually!
However, I think this car looks absolutely sensational. I think it is a very brave and commendable move by Caterham. However, I also think Caterham know exactly what they are doing and so the bravery side of things isn't really an issue as I am sure they have done their homework. All I can say is thank you Caterham, because for me there was a big gap in the market and you have filled it. I doubt it will be that hard to find another 19 people who agree with me. I am going to buy one for sure and I can think of a handful of others that won't need too much persuasion. It is the perfect step up for the experienced Caterham racer who is looking to go onto another challenge.
If you look at the alternatives, there are downsides to every option. Radical make cars that break all the time and they are effectively keeping their business alive by supplying an endless stream of parts to customers. I have a freind who raced in the UK Cup Radical series and he spent the same doing that as he did racing in the Carrera Cup. It is too expensive is the general gist. They rely on their cars being unreliable.
Then you have the CN cars and Vdev/Speed series etc. Again very expensive and it isn't one make. The organisers are unknown to must of us as well. Everybody who has raced in Caterhams knows how well this is executed so it is an obvious advantage over the competition. It will also be Caterhams new baby and their premier series so it will get the treatment it deserves.
In summary it is a one make series, with a great car and run by a proper bunch of people. What is not to like?
Thank you again Caterham and see you in 2012, well see you tomorrow actually!
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