RE: Cooper SD Diesel Hot Hatch Set For Geneva
Discussion
Corsair7 said:
HellDiver said:
140hp diesel is "hot hatch" now? What are you guys smoking?!?
Its the torque not the BHP that will make this car 'fun' to drive......Fox- said:
Corsair7 said:
HellDiver said:
140hp diesel is "hot hatch" now? What are you guys smoking?!?
Its the torque not the BHP that will make this car 'fun' to drive......Obviously you can gear a petrol engine to produce the same wheel torque at its peak, but the engine's torque curve is just that - a curve. It rises, peaks at a given point, then falls. Diesel engines (and to a lesser extent turbocharged petrols) flatten out this curve into more of a plateau, so you get more of the torque more of the time (relatively to the smaller rev range at least).
Chris71 said:
Fox- said:
Corsair7 said:
HellDiver said:
140hp diesel is "hot hatch" now? What are you guys smoking?!?
Its the torque not the BHP that will make this car 'fun' to drive......Obviously you can gear a petrol engine to produce the same wheel torque at its peak, but the engine's torque curve is just that - a curve. It rises, peaks at a given point, then falls. Diesel engines (and to a lesser extent turbocharged petrols) flatten out this curve into more of a plateau, so you get more of the torque more of the time (relatively to the smaller rev range at least).
It's about time people opened their eyes to diesels and started being less stuck in their ways. As Co2 counts become more important diesels will play a big part in the motor industry over the next few years until Electric becomes common place.
Diesel particle filters have come on leaps and bounds and are allowing for some seriously impressive Co2 figures. It will get to the point soon were heavy duty inefficient polluting petrol engines will be priced off the road.
This I am sure of.
Diesel particle filters have come on leaps and bounds and are allowing for some seriously impressive Co2 figures. It will get to the point soon were heavy duty inefficient polluting petrol engines will be priced off the road.
This I am sure of.
pilchardthecat said:
Chris71 said:
Fox- said:
Corsair7 said:
HellDiver said:
140hp diesel is "hot hatch" now? What are you guys smoking?!?
Its the torque not the BHP that will make this car 'fun' to drive......Obviously you can gear a petrol engine to produce the same wheel torque at its peak, but the engine's torque curve is just that - a curve. It rises, peaks at a given point, then falls. Diesel engines (and to a lesser extent turbocharged petrols) flatten out this curve into more of a plateau, so you get more of the torque more of the time (relatively to the smaller rev range at least).
Okay, I've yet to come across a truly satisfying diesel engine, but you can't say that about many petrol engines these days, and that's not just due to the march of 'diesel-like' things like turbo downsizing, direct injection and fly-by-wire throttles.
Chris71 said:
Personal preference really - what do you prefer a screaming four cylinder or a nice big V8?
Okay, I've yet to come across a truly satisfying diesel engine, but you can't say that about many petrol engines these days, and that's not just due to the march of 'diesel-like' things like turbo downsizing, direct injection and fly-by-wire throttles.
Very true. Put the torque and bhp curves of e.g. the VAG 2.0T and the BMW 3.0d (even the single turbo - the 35d is another matter entirely) side-by-side and there's no longer a massive difference. Still noticeable, but in reality both deliver their performance in a very similar way.Okay, I've yet to come across a truly satisfying diesel engine, but you can't say that about many petrol engines these days, and that's not just due to the march of 'diesel-like' things like turbo downsizing, direct injection and fly-by-wire throttles.
That said, for a given capacity-bracket/cylinder count, IMHO you'll always find that the most 'enjoyable' engines are petrol, whether FI or NA.
Now THERE is a challenge for the diesel-philes here - point to a diesel engine that is 'more fun' than any petrol engine with the same # of cylinders and a broadly similar capacity!Chris71 said:
pilchardthecat said:
Chris71 said:
Fox- said:
Corsair7 said:
HellDiver said:
140hp diesel is "hot hatch" now? What are you guys smoking?!?
Its the torque not the BHP that will make this car 'fun' to drive......Obviously you can gear a petrol engine to produce the same wheel torque at its peak, but the engine's torque curve is just that - a curve. It rises, peaks at a given point, then falls. Diesel engines (and to a lesser extent turbocharged petrols) flatten out this curve into more of a plateau, so you get more of the torque more of the time (relatively to the smaller rev range at least).
Okay, I've yet to come across a truly satisfying diesel engine, but you can't say that about many petrol engines these days, and that's not just due to the march of 'diesel-like' things like turbo downsizing, direct injection and fly-by-wire throttles.
My theory (based on years of getting very bored of cars very quickly) - the more accessible the power, the more often you use it, and so the more you get used to it. High revving petrol cars which deliver their peak power at 6/7/8k revs are more resilient in the face of boredom.
Diesels and these newer turbo petrol cars (eg the 135i) with a higher proportion of power lower down, all have me browsing the classifieds after a month.
havoc said:
Chris71 said:
Personal preference really - what do you prefer a screaming four cylinder or a nice big V8?
Okay, I've yet to come across a truly satisfying diesel engine, but you can't say that about many petrol engines these days, and that's not just due to the march of 'diesel-like' things like turbo downsizing, direct injection and fly-by-wire throttles.
Very true. Put the torque and bhp curves of e.g. the VAG 2.0T and the BMW 3.0d (even the single turbo - the 35d is another matter entirely) side-by-side and there's no longer a massive difference. Still noticeable, but in reality both deliver their performance in a very similar way.Okay, I've yet to come across a truly satisfying diesel engine, but you can't say that about many petrol engines these days, and that's not just due to the march of 'diesel-like' things like turbo downsizing, direct injection and fly-by-wire throttles.
That said, for a given capacity-bracket/cylinder count, IMHO you'll always find that the most 'enjoyable' engines are petrol, whether FI or NA.
Now THERE is a challenge for the diesel-philes here - point to a diesel engine that is 'more fun' than any petrol engine with the same # of cylinders and a broadly similar capacity!Ecurie Ecosse said:
havoc said:
Chris71 said:
Personal preference really - what do you prefer a screaming four cylinder or a nice big V8?
Okay, I've yet to come across a truly satisfying diesel engine, but you can't say that about many petrol engines these days, and that's not just due to the march of 'diesel-like' things like turbo downsizing, direct injection and fly-by-wire throttles.
Very true. Put the torque and bhp curves of e.g. the VAG 2.0T and the BMW 3.0d (even the single turbo - the 35d is another matter entirely) side-by-side and there's no longer a massive difference. Still noticeable, but in reality both deliver their performance in a very similar way.Okay, I've yet to come across a truly satisfying diesel engine, but you can't say that about many petrol engines these days, and that's not just due to the march of 'diesel-like' things like turbo downsizing, direct injection and fly-by-wire throttles.
That said, for a given capacity-bracket/cylinder count, IMHO you'll always find that the most 'enjoyable' engines are petrol, whether FI or NA.
Now THERE is a challenge for the diesel-philes here - point to a diesel engine that is 'more fun' than any petrol engine with the same # of cylinders and a broadly similar capacity!havoc said:
Ecurie Ecosse said:
havoc said:
Chris71 said:
Personal preference really - what do you prefer a screaming four cylinder or a nice big V8?
Okay, I've yet to come across a truly satisfying diesel engine, but you can't say that about many petrol engines these days, and that's not just due to the march of 'diesel-like' things like turbo downsizing, direct injection and fly-by-wire throttles.
Very true. Put the torque and bhp curves of e.g. the VAG 2.0T and the BMW 3.0d (even the single turbo - the 35d is another matter entirely) side-by-side and there's no longer a massive difference. Still noticeable, but in reality both deliver their performance in a very similar way.Okay, I've yet to come across a truly satisfying diesel engine, but you can't say that about many petrol engines these days, and that's not just due to the march of 'diesel-like' things like turbo downsizing, direct injection and fly-by-wire throttles.
That said, for a given capacity-bracket/cylinder count, IMHO you'll always find that the most 'enjoyable' engines are petrol, whether FI or NA.
Now THERE is a challenge for the diesel-philes here - point to a diesel engine that is 'more fun' than any petrol engine with the same # of cylinders and a broadly similar capacity!123d (dare I say it) remapped isn't far off the power output of the Subaru STi unit, though
and averages 40mpg and has 360lb/ft of torque.Ecurie Ecosse said:
123d (dare I say it) remapped isn't far off the power output of the Subaru STi unit, though and averages 40mpg and has 360lb/ft of torque.
Having owned one for 2 years, I would say the 123d is probably the most "fun" diesel road car you can buy. RWD helps a lot. It's certainly more fun than several petrol powered FWD hot hatches available. and averages 40mpg and has 360lb/ft of torque.I still wanted something different after a couple of months though. It's all just too accessible.
havoc said:
Now THERE is a challenge for the diesel-philes here - point to a diesel engine that is 'more fun' than any petrol engine with the same # of cylinders and a broadly similar capacity!kpb said:
havoc said:
Now THERE is a challenge for the diesel-philes here - point to a diesel engine that is 'more fun' than any petrol engine with the same # of cylinders and a broadly similar capacity!Ecosse - FRS - was trying to think of an I4 turbo with a little character (most characterful I4's are n/asp or s'charged), but agreed. Old school FCT 20v probably would have been a good contender too...
havoc said:
busta said:
Hang on a sec! We are talking <130hp diesels here, of course they don't have exactly the same chassis as the 170hp+ top spec petrols. But they have 'sporting' upgrades befitting of their performance.
1) Ah...so despite all these diesel owners and marketeers going on about how all that torque gives them great performance, they don't actually NEED the same chassis?!? Because they're not as quick... They aren't as quick as the highest performance petrols, but they do get the same chassis as the petrols of the same performance which puts them on a level playing field. in the case of later 306 DTurbos, the chassis was virtually identical to the GTI6 apart from the brakes. I'm not sure what your point is here? I don't recall every blowing the trumpet of performance diesels, just trying to counter the argument that until recently performance diesels had never been given a chance.
2) Why does it have to be ONLY the quickest model that benefits from a great chassis???
It doesn't. Both the 306 DTurbo and Focus Sport TDCI have a great chassis.
Wouldn't the top-spec diesel warrant everything that the top-spec petrol gets?!?
Not if it has significantly less power, no.
If it was to attract enthusiast drivers, wouldn't that (as RenaultSport have done) be the right thing to do?
It wasn't worthwhile when the diesels where so down on power- they simply didn't have the performance to attract the enthusiasts. But they are getting closer now, hence why manufacturers are bothering.
(BTW - the Golf TDis were 170PS and almost as quick as the MkV GTi, real-world, in a straight-line. With the right chassis I reckon they'd have sold very well in the current climate! The Seat's are 140 and 170, and the Renault is c.150bhp. A little more potent than <130, eh...)
Yes well that's VAG for you. I don't think they care what the cars are like as long as the Joneses think they are cool.
Edited by busta on Thursday 20th January 20:22
Edited by busta on Thursday 20th January 20:23
sicasey said:
KM666 said:
i thought the issue with diesels is the heavyer exhuast gasses that stay around 'toddler' level longer then unleaded petrol fumes which rise harmlessly into the atmosphere? it definatly a dirty feul though just look what it does to rubber!
Wow what a wierd comment to add.
te.Viva la gasolina
va1o said:
143bhp, peak power at 4,000rpm according to that link... that's rubbis, and well below the better BMW diesels which hit peak above 4,500.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff