RE: PH Investigates: Trouble At The 'Ring
Discussion
Mr Whippy said:
BlueTwo2 said:
It's a shame when stuff does go downhill, but it is also wrong when people take on this whole "what are these new people doing here, this is OUR playground" type attitude.
People seem quick to forget that they were the newbies once upon a time, and elitist attitudes really boil my piss!
If your quiet local pub got invaded by young teenagers, and over a few months became a young persons pub with loud music on and stuff, you wouldn't like it.People seem quick to forget that they were the newbies once upon a time, and elitist attitudes really boil my piss!
It's not the volume of people, it's the type of people, and the apparent change of TF days/trips/locale to appeal to that new type of customer that I think is the problem.
It needs to get back to what it clearly isn't now, a commercial paradise (well that was the goal I guess), where throughput comes before quality of clientele!
Edited by KM666 on Wednesday 19th January 16:45
KM666 said:
Mr Whippy said:
BlueTwo2 said:
It's a shame when stuff does go downhill, but it is also wrong when people take on this whole "what are these new people doing here, this is OUR playground" type attitude.
People seem quick to forget that they were the newbies once upon a time, and elitist attitudes really boil my piss!
If your quiet local pub got invaded by young teenagers, and over a few months became a young persons pub with loud music on and stuff, you wouldn't like it.People seem quick to forget that they were the newbies once upon a time, and elitist attitudes really boil my piss!
It's not the volume of people, it's the type of people, and the apparent change of TF days/trips/locale to appeal to that new type of customer that I think is the problem.
It needs to get back to what it clearly isn't now, a commercial paradise (well that was the goal I guess), where throughput comes before quality of clientele!
It's common everywhere you look.
I don't want a motorway next to my house, I don't want a paedo living down the street, I don't want wind turbines there, I don't want a new housing development round the corner, I don't want the neighbours buidling an extension that blocks light from my garden.
If people love the new super busy Ring, and all the new things built up around it to appeal to them, then why is it all in trouble?
Looks like people don't like what it has become so much... hmmmm
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
KM666 said:
Mr Whippy said:
BlueTwo2 said:
It's a shame when stuff does go downhill, but it is also wrong when people take on this whole "what are these new people doing here, this is OUR playground" type attitude.
People seem quick to forget that they were the newbies once upon a time, and elitist attitudes really boil my piss!
If your quiet local pub got invaded by young teenagers, and over a few months became a young persons pub with loud music on and stuff, you wouldn't like it.People seem quick to forget that they were the newbies once upon a time, and elitist attitudes really boil my piss!
It's not the volume of people, it's the type of people, and the apparent change of TF days/trips/locale to appeal to that new type of customer that I think is the problem.
It needs to get back to what it clearly isn't now, a commercial paradise (well that was the goal I guess), where throughput comes before quality of clientele!
It's common everywhere you look.
I don't want a motorway next to my house, I don't want a paedo living down the street, I don't want wind turbines there, I don't want a new housing development round the corner, I don't want the neighbours buidling an extension that blocks light from my garden.
If people love the new super busy Ring, and all the new things built up around it to appeal to them, then why is it all in trouble?
Looks like people don't like what it has become so much... hmmmm
Dave
KM666 said:
well i hope when you first starting going to the ring the 'regulars' held you in the same contempt as you now hold the newcomers
I think you're misunderstanding Dave's comments.His 'not liking what the ring has become' is aimed (as I read it) in two directions:-
- the 'new owners' (sic) who are treating the whole thing as a purely commercial enterprise and view all of the local businesses who've helped build it into what it currently is as competition.
- the 'new breed' of visitors who aren't dyed-in-the-wool petrolheads like us - for us, the N'ring is akin to Mecca - a pilgrimage to be undertaken, a drive to be enjoyed whether at 10/10ths or 8/10ths. For these new visitors (not all, for sure), they're following Clarkson's "BTG time chase", and think they can drive like Sabine when they really drive like Susan from down the road.
And I think he's got a point - it's become an overcrowded circus on TF days, which are now (by all accounts, and looking at old videos I think he's right) populated by more accidents, more closures, and more idiots.
KM666 said:
well i hope when you first starting going to the ring the 'regulars' held you in the same contempt as you now hold the newcomers
If I had behaved like some of the dross that turn up there now I'm sure they would apart from the fact the only 'regulars' I used to see were German for the most part.One time I was there I went to fill up and overheard a particularly obnoxious father/son combo there in their stickered up 'scoobies' and MKII Golf Gti (I was there in a borrowed French registered Impreza myself) talking loudly about stupid Germans, how they should clear the way for 'proper motors' and generally acting like the sort of stereotypical English morons abroad I thought only existed in the tabloids. They obviously thought I was French as they added a few comments about 'f
king frogs' as well which were presumably aimed at me.Needless to say a few hours later I saw JR in the car park watching his car leave on a flatbed having binned it. Daddy managed to last until the following day when he too 'monged his motor'.
I had never seen people of this sort at the ring until this point and every time I've been since their ilk seems to have grown. Not exclusively from England I might add but the amount of people who over estimate their abilities, drive aggressively, act obnoxiously on and off track seems to have grown exponentially.
If that makes me like some 'creepy old colonel' just because I don't like to spend time with the dregs of society then I guess I'll just have to wear the cap because it fits.
edit to add: remembered the little scrote was actually there in a MKII Golf GTI which he binned, never know someone might even know who they are.
Edited by Motorrad on Thursday 20th January 01:57
flemke said:
juansolo said:
This unfortunately happens everywhere with popularity. When I first started doing track days for example it was with a small group of people hiring old airfields for sts and giggles. Other than the costs in tyres, it was cheap good fun. As it got more popular, airfield owners realised there was money to be made here from these idiots with plastic sports cars and started ramping the price. Which was the begining of the end of the good old days. I still enjoy trackdays, but they're different now. They've lost a lot of the friendship and comraderie that used to go on between the attendees. It used to be as much about the social side of it than it was about the driving. Sure there are days run with a flavour of the old days, but it's not the same as it was.
It happens with everything as soon as it becomes apparent there's money to be had, someone will want it. It's inevitable and in all cases we'll all look back on the good old days and how it was. But it's almost certainly over and the commercial side is here to stay. Sad, but the way of the world.
Although there does tend to be a gradual deterioration of the specialness of anything that is both good and available to all, that deterioration is normally much less in publicly-owned assets. In 2 centuries or whatever, Hyde Park has not been changed all that much, although the commercial potentialities must be enormous.ts and giggles. Other than the costs in tyres, it was cheap good fun. As it got more popular, airfield owners realised there was money to be made here from these idiots with plastic sports cars and started ramping the price. Which was the begining of the end of the good old days. I still enjoy trackdays, but they're different now. They've lost a lot of the friendship and comraderie that used to go on between the attendees. It used to be as much about the social side of it than it was about the driving. Sure there are days run with a flavour of the old days, but it's not the same as it was.It happens with everything as soon as it becomes apparent there's money to be had, someone will want it. It's inevitable and in all cases we'll all look back on the good old days and how it was. But it's almost certainly over and the commercial side is here to stay. Sad, but the way of the world.
The problem here was that there was very little oversight or transparency. A small group of dubious people, including outright criminals, were in a position to do something for themselves, and there was no check on them until it was too late. In Germany, the Nordschleife is not like Silverstone - well-known to motor sports enthusiasts but unknown to everyone else. Rather, the NS is a national icon - maybe not quite like Stonehenge, but not that far off, either. The crooks were in part able to do what they did because of the political organisation of Germany, which has a federal structure. Each state (in this case, Rheinland-Pfalz) has got considerable freedom of action. Because R-P owned Nurburgring GmbH, the governance of the national icon was out of the public eye, residing as it did in the sleepy mountains on the Luxembourg border. The perps took advantage of the lack of visibility. It might have "worked" (in the way that they had envisaged), if they had not been idiots.
Dr JonboyG said:
flemke said:
juansolo said:
This unfortunately happens everywhere with popularity. When I first started doing track days for example it was with a small group of people hiring old airfields for sts and giggles. Other than the costs in tyres, it was cheap good fun. As it got more popular, airfield owners realised there was money to be made here from these idiots with plastic sports cars and started ramping the price. Which was the begining of the end of the good old days. I still enjoy trackdays, but they're different now. They've lost a lot of the friendship and comraderie that used to go on between the attendees. It used to be as much about the social side of it than it was about the driving. Sure there are days run with a flavour of the old days, but it's not the same as it was.
It happens with everything as soon as it becomes apparent there's money to be had, someone will want it. It's inevitable and in all cases we'll all look back on the good old days and how it was. But it's almost certainly over and the commercial side is here to stay. Sad, but the way of the world.
Although there does tend to be a gradual deterioration of the specialness of anything that is both good and available to all, that deterioration is normally much less in publicly-owned assets. In 2 centuries or whatever, Hyde Park has not been changed all that much, although the commercial potentialities must be enormous.ts and giggles. Other than the costs in tyres, it was cheap good fun. As it got more popular, airfield owners realised there was money to be made here from these idiots with plastic sports cars and started ramping the price. Which was the begining of the end of the good old days. I still enjoy trackdays, but they're different now. They've lost a lot of the friendship and comraderie that used to go on between the attendees. It used to be as much about the social side of it than it was about the driving. Sure there are days run with a flavour of the old days, but it's not the same as it was.It happens with everything as soon as it becomes apparent there's money to be had, someone will want it. It's inevitable and in all cases we'll all look back on the good old days and how it was. But it's almost certainly over and the commercial side is here to stay. Sad, but the way of the world.
The problem here was that there was very little oversight or transparency. A small group of dubious people, including outright criminals, were in a position to do something for themselves, and there was no check on them until it was too late. In Germany, the Nordschleife is not like Silverstone - well-known to motor sports enthusiasts but unknown to everyone else. Rather, the NS is a national icon - maybe not quite like Stonehenge, but not that far off, either. The crooks were in part able to do what they did because of the political organisation of Germany, which has a federal structure. Each state (in this case, Rheinland-Pfalz) has got considerable freedom of action. Because R-P owned Nurburgring GmbH, the governance of the national icon was out of the public eye, residing as it did in the sleepy mountains on the Luxembourg border. The perps took advantage of the lack of visibility. It might have "worked" (in the way that they had envisaged), if they had not been idiots.
I am not familiar with any details sufficiently to have a worthwhile opinion, but the gist, as I understand it, was that the crooks' work was done in the planning and construction - bribes to private persons in positions of responsibility in exchange for awards of contracts funded by public money. This was part of the motivation for creating the monstrosity in the first place, and part of the reason why it ended up being so expensive to build.
AIUI, the hawking of the CRs was not envisaged until long after the various bribes and kickbacks (and probably other felonies) had been done. The CRs were flogged to Lindner and his partner slightly more than a year ago, long after the thing had been built and its commercial hopelessness was reality.
If the above is correct, and it was not part of the original Lindner game plan to swoop in and take the property off the hands of the state at a bargain price, then I don't think Lindner & Co. can be accused of misdeeds relating to the conception, design and construction - which were the source of the fundamental problem, and the established criminality.
If there were subsequent dodgy dealings specific to the sale of the CRs - and there may have been, but I have heard only vague, unsubstantiated speculations about that - they would be a different story.
KM666 said:
Mr Whippy said:
KM666 said:
Mr Whippy said:
BlueTwo2 said:
It's a shame when stuff does go downhill, but it is also wrong when people take on this whole "what are these new people doing here, this is OUR playground" type attitude.
People seem quick to forget that they were the newbies once upon a time, and elitist attitudes really boil my piss!
If your quiet local pub got invaded by young teenagers, and over a few months became a young persons pub with loud music on and stuff, you wouldn't like it.People seem quick to forget that they were the newbies once upon a time, and elitist attitudes really boil my piss!
It's not the volume of people, it's the type of people, and the apparent change of TF days/trips/locale to appeal to that new type of customer that I think is the problem.
It needs to get back to what it clearly isn't now, a commercial paradise (well that was the goal I guess), where throughput comes before quality of clientele!
It's common everywhere you look.
I don't want a motorway next to my house, I don't want a paedo living down the street, I don't want wind turbines there, I don't want a new housing development round the corner, I don't want the neighbours buidling an extension that blocks light from my garden.
If people love the new super busy Ring, and all the new things built up around it to appeal to them, then why is it all in trouble?
Looks like people don't like what it has become so much... hmmmm
Dave
I'm sure everyone would be happy if it was full of like minded new comers, but it's not is it.
Therefore there will be a change in the mood of the place.
Would you still frequent a nice local quiet pub that you previously enjoyed, that suddenly became 90% goth filled, and played the Twilight film soundtrack all the time
There is nothing wrong with the change, if that is what the owners of the pub want fine too, but there is NOTHING wrong with a person/customer not liking the change and not wanting to go anymore (what is happening there now?!)
I don't want to go to the Ring any way. Spa seems a much nicer place to go, a proper track event too, rather than a bit of a free-for all hoon on a one way toll road.
Dave
flemke said:
Mr Whippy said:
I don't want to go to the Ring any way. Spa seems a much nicer place to go, a proper track event too, rather than a bit of a free-for all hoon on a one way toll road.
Dave
A bit apples-and-oranges, Dave. There are proper track days on the Nordschleife, too. Dave
An organised track day at the Ring is probably fantastic fun, but I'm guessing those events are quite costly vs a track day at somewhere like Spa?!
Dave
Max_Torque said:
It might seem strange for a PH to admit this, but i've never really seen the point of the 'ring!!
It's too fast, and too long a circuit to learn in short order, so you can never really attack it with any vigour without the peril of an incident (and it sounds like the higher numbers are now making this happen more), and it's so fast and smooth that any road car developed there is basically an excercise in high speed stability, which is not really how we used to drive in the uk (i could ramble into a long story of how the 'ring destroyed the handling of the mk1 RS focus, but i sharn't lol!)
There are lots of alternatives the industry pool can use, so i can't see them getting to upset (it's about time we stopped the silly "developed on the Ring" rubbish anyway!
I feel bad for the locals, but perhaps, if the "funfair" dies, things might return to how they used to be??
With you entirely.It's too fast, and too long a circuit to learn in short order, so you can never really attack it with any vigour without the peril of an incident (and it sounds like the higher numbers are now making this happen more), and it's so fast and smooth that any road car developed there is basically an excercise in high speed stability, which is not really how we used to drive in the uk (i could ramble into a long story of how the 'ring destroyed the handling of the mk1 RS focus, but i sharn't lol!)
There are lots of alternatives the industry pool can use, so i can't see them getting to upset (it's about time we stopped the silly "developed on the Ring" rubbish anyway!
I feel bad for the locals, but perhaps, if the "funfair" dies, things might return to how they used to be??
The Ring was special until Mondeo Man/M3 man found it. The it became just something else to w
k off about on the internet. Nothing worse than the general public for fking something up.Mr Whippy said:
flemke said:
Mr Whippy said:
I don't want to go to the Ring any way. Spa seems a much nicer place to go, a proper track event too, rather than a bit of a free-for all hoon on a one way toll road.
Dave
A bit apples-and-oranges, Dave. There are proper track days on the Nordschleife, too. Dave
An organised track day at the Ring is probably fantastic fun, but I'm guessing those events are quite costly vs a track day at somewhere like Spa?!
Dave
havoc said:
Mr Whippy said:
flemke said:
Mr Whippy said:
I don't want to go to the Ring any way. Spa seems a much nicer place to go, a proper track event too, rather than a bit of a free-for all hoon on a one way toll road.
Dave
A bit apples-and-oranges, Dave. There are proper track days on the Nordschleife, too. Dave
An organised track day at the Ring is probably fantastic fun, but I'm guessing those events are quite costly vs a track day at somewhere like Spa?!
Dave
Dave
I recall a very interesting article some time ago about "premium" arrangements at Yankee Stadium. The management of Yankee stadium created "Premium Seating" at the stadium, right where you want to be, behind first base. The premium seats were available only to members of the premium club, which was expensive to join and entailed a yearly subscription, also expensive. The idea was to attract corporations to buy into the scheme and then use these seats to schmooze clients. The earning potential of the plan was enormous and would have provided an enormous boost to the club. However, the clients did not come, corporations could have bought the seats but the GFC and tax laws made the proposition unattractive (basically the tickets could not be written off on tax and were actually counted as income). The outcome of this was that the seats sat empty. Regular Yankees fans were furious at this. They would have paid extra for good seats but they couldn't stump up the joining fee for the "Premium Club". They were effectively locked out of seats that were previously attainable and highly prized. Unsurprisingly, this caused general attendance to drop at the stadium, the real fans had been betrayed by the club. Eventually, the management had to drop the whole idea and do a lot of pandering to get the fans back.
2011 and here's the Nurburgring making the exact same mistake. The problem here is they can't merely dismantle a fence (like at Yankee stadium) the infrastructure is built and unless it's to go bankrupt (and take taxpayers along for the ride) it will have to make some money. It won't be abandoned. If the 'Ring management attempt to price the average enthusiast out of the picture, trying to save it's financial arse it will kill the golden goose completely. It will probably take ten years or so before these new facilities are accepted as part of the 'Ring and I'd expect things to be relatively quiet for a few years. They should tread carefully with the corporate guys too, if they price them out, they'll be losing massive amounts of free publicity and exposure.
Isn't it amazing what damage can be done by greedy bds who see fans and enthusiasts as mere "punters" who are ripe for fleecing. They swagger into a development like this with a mountain of borrowed money, bullst the locals with their market "research" and projected profits thinking only of themselves and puffing up their bloated egos. Then the whole thing turns out to be a white elephant, they ps off somewhere with their pockets bulging, to work up the same scam on some other community. Meanwhile the locals and the tourists are left to try and keep the whole thing afloat so as not to lose everything.
2011 and here's the Nurburgring making the exact same mistake. The problem here is they can't merely dismantle a fence (like at Yankee stadium) the infrastructure is built and unless it's to go bankrupt (and take taxpayers along for the ride) it will have to make some money. It won't be abandoned. If the 'Ring management attempt to price the average enthusiast out of the picture, trying to save it's financial arse it will kill the golden goose completely. It will probably take ten years or so before these new facilities are accepted as part of the 'Ring and I'd expect things to be relatively quiet for a few years. They should tread carefully with the corporate guys too, if they price them out, they'll be losing massive amounts of free publicity and exposure.
Isn't it amazing what damage can be done by greedy b
ds who see fans and enthusiasts as mere "punters" who are ripe for fleecing. They swagger into a development like this with a mountain of borrowed money, bullst the locals with their market "research" and projected profits thinking only of themselves and puffing up their bloated egos. Then the whole thing turns out to be a white elephant, they ps off somewhere with their pockets bulging, to work up the same scam on some other community. Meanwhile the locals and the tourists are left to try and keep the whole thing afloat so as not to lose everything.Edited by Fresh_Clip on Friday 21st January 04:51
Motorrad said:
edit to add: remembered the little scrote was actually there in a MKII Golf GTI which he binned, never know someone might even know who they are.
I know them Oh and to the thread, the ring's not dying, it's changing, and there will always be problems when something of this magnitude changes, but it has to change.
Adenauer said:
Motorrad said:
edit to add: remembered the little scrote was actually there in a MKII Golf GTI which he binned, never know someone might even know who they are.
I know them Oh and to the thread, the ring's not dying, it's changing, and there will always be problems when something of this magnitude changes, but it has to change.
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