RE: PH Investigates: Trouble At The 'Ring

[Adenauer]

heebeegeetee said:

Adenauer said:

Motorrad said:

edit to add: remembered the little scrote was actually there in a MKII Golf GTI which he binned, never know someone might even know who they are.

I know them

Oh and to the thread, the ring's not dying, it's changing, and there will always be problems when something of this magnitude changes, but it has to change.

Why does it?

Becuase it's lost money, year after year after year, hence the investment (not that I actually agree what's been done with the investment), and now they want to make it profitable, or at least, lose less money.
I can also remember when the new GP circuit was built in the early 80s, that was also pretty unpopular at the time, but necessary. OMG, not more F1 cars on the Nordschleife!!!

[flemke]

Adenauer said:

heebeegeetee said:

Adenauer said:

Motorrad said:

edit to add: remembered the little scrote was actually there in a MKII Golf GTI which he binned, never know someone might even know who they are.

I know them

Oh and to the thread, the ring's not dying, it's changing, and there will always be problems when something of this magnitude changes, but it has to change.

Why does it?

Becuase it's lost money, year after year after year, hence the investment (not that I actually agree what's been done with the investment), and now they want to make it profitable, or at least, lose less money.
I can also remember when the new GP circuit was built in the early 80s, that was also pretty unpopular at the time, but necessary. OMG, not more F1 cars on the Nordschleife!!!

The operation in itself may have lost money, but when you take into account the VAT, business and personal income tax generated by the region, the government (local and federal) surely came out ahead.
It's a matter of speculation what those people would have been doing with their labour if it weren't on motor racing, but that is a separate issue. There is no way that the revenue generated for the gov't waa insufficient to compensate for the operating losses of Nurburgring GmbH.

[havoc]

flemke said:

There is no way that the revenue generated for the gov't waa insufficient to compensate for the operating losses of Nurburgring GmbH.

True. Trouble is, a lot of those taxes are Federal, so the State would have been losing money while central gov't raked it in. And if German civil servants/politicians are anything like ours, that wouldn't be permitted...

This completely ignores the additional employment in the region (reducing costs to the State) and the extra tourist revenue, but would you expect them to take that into account...

[Ross Parker]

So sad,I really hope its all ok.Been a few times now,it is tuely petrolhead heaven.Surely there are a few peoplewho could buy the place out.We could all contribute and it could be owned by pistonheads lol. Well it looks like its either gona go down in financial trouble or they will ban it because of saftey anyway.But im sure the german government will do all they can too keep it open,its gotta bring in some pritty serious money every year.

[flemke]

Ross Parker said:

So sad,I really hope its all ok.Been a few times now,it is tuely petrolhead heaven.Surely there are a few peoplewho could buy the place out.We could all contribute and it could be owned by pistonheads lol. Well it looks like its either gona go down in financial trouble or they will ban it because of saftey anyway.But im sure the german government will do all they can too keep it open,its gotta bring in some pritty serious money every year.

Don't worry over whether it might close (the tourist driving). That's the last thing they'd do. The only way they can pay off the debt is to keep it open and charge people to drive there.

[Harry Monk]

flemke said:

I am not familiar with any details sufficiently to have a worthwhile opinion, but the gist, as I understand it, was that the crooks' work was done in the planning and construction - bribes to private persons in positions of responsibility in exchange for awards of contracts funded by public money. This was part of the motivation for creating the monstrosity in the first place, and part of the reason why it ended up being so expensive to build.
AIUI, the hawking of the CRs was not envisaged until long after the various bribes and kickbacks (and probably other felonies) had been done.

It sounds more like Nigeria than Germany.

[thenortherner]

I went for the first time in October of last year. I met some great people and didn't really witness the 'chav' or obnoxious element mentioned. Maybe it was the time of year, I'm guessing most British tourists will go in the summer months.

I got my laps in early in the morning to avoid the congestion.

The whole ring werk arena was pretty crap and deserted. It was Nurburgring's answer to Blackpool.

The other thing that irritated me was the ring cards and having to use those rather than cash.

[heebeegeetee]

Adenauer said:

heebeegeetee said:

Adenauer said:

Motorrad said:

edit to add: remembered the little scrote was actually there in a MKII Golf GTI which he binned, never know someone might even know who they are.

I know them

Oh and to the thread, the ring's not dying, it's changing, and there will always be problems when something of this magnitude changes, but it has to change.

Why does it?

Becuase it's lost money, year after year after year, hence the investment (not that I actually agree what's been done with the investment), and now they want to make it profitable, or at least, lose less money.
I can also remember when the new GP circuit was built in the early 80s, that was also pretty unpopular at the time, but necessary. OMG, not more F1 cars on the Nordschleife!!!

i didn't realise the place was losing money.

So, aware that the place has been there since 1927 and has unquestionably met it's reason for existence, who's money are they losing? I mean, the place is heavily used and brings a huge amount of money into the area. Given that the place isn't in the UK, I am surprised that it can lose money (I thought it was us who are so adept at creating debt ). It's build costs must have been met and so surely are it's maintenance costs, which is paid by the users, surely?

How is a money creator like the 'Ring losing money?

[agtlaw]

before the new development started the nurburgring was around €60 million in the red. the accounts are publically available so this a known fact. put simply, the nurburgring makes an annual loss from motorsport and the new development was built to make a profit from tourism to offset the loss from motorsport. the save the ring people complain that the nurburgring should be motorsport not tourism and rollercoasters. nice idea but not very real world is it?

[flemke]

heebeegeetee said:

How is a money creator like the 'Ring losing money?

agtlaw said:

before the new development started the nurburgring was around €60 million in the red. the accounts are publically available so this a known fact. put simply, the nurburgring makes an annual loss from motorsport and the new development was built to make a profit from tourism to offset the loss from motorsport. the save the ring people complain that the nurburgring should be motorsport not tourism and rollercoasters. nice idea but not very real world is it?

They lost a good bit of money every year on the GP. Thanks Bernie.
They incurred a big expense when the FIA required them to install a gratuitous layer of fencing behind the armco - 26 miles of fencing. Thanks, Max.
I think it's generally accepted that what they charged for the "Industry Pool" was too low.
One wonders how much their operating expenses were inflated by the kickbacks paid to Kafitz and his friends, as described in the Hahne book.
One therefore could say that at least some portion of Nurbugring GmbH's debts had been incurred unnecessarily, and the deficits could be reduced going forward.

Leaving that point to one side, €60m accumulated over, say, the last decade is peanuts next to the revenue the government would have taken in from VAT, income tax and NI from all the employees, and corporation tax. A heck of a lot of people are employed because of the Nurburgring, and that is not including whatever unmeasurable benefit German car makers derive from exploiting it to develop their products, which they go on to sell globally. As noted above, however, there is the dilemma that almost all that revenue goes to the federal gov't, whilst it is Rheinland-Pfalz that has had to cope with the operating deficits.

Whether the new development was the answer to the operating deficits is a different question. Rumours that these guys were contemplating this development began circulating at least as far back as '04. Even then, in that rosy economic environment, the idea seemed idiotic.
They were talking about creating a "family destination" that would attract people not only for the motor sport, but for its own sake. They were going to build a golf course. Who in the fu<k is going to travel hundreds of miles for a golf course where it often rains, it gets very windy, it gets very cold, and you can't predict the weather even 15 minutes in advance, much less the days in advance required to plan a family holiday?
Who is going to bring their children to a "destination" where the kids can look forward to a weekend of playing in the cold and rain?
For 5 months of the year, no one in his right mind would voluntarily travel to the region. The weather is not merely unpredictable, it is predictably unpleasant. For all the tourist trade, they have to earn a year's money in 5/12ths of the year.
If you're flying to the area, the closest airport is that little rathole Frankfurt-Hahn, from which, if you're lucky, it'll take you just an hour to get to Nurburg. If you fly to a real airport, Frankfurt am Main or Koln/Bonn, the drive to Nurburg will take you 90 minutes.

People went to Nurburg despite its location, and despite its weather, for its unique, historic racing circuit. The notion that people would come for some other reason was a fantasy.
In light of that, to sink 300+ millions into the development - much of which was done after the credit crunch handwriting was on the wall - was crazy. New hotels and restaurants? The area already had enough - so the primary effect was always going to be to harm existing operators, reducing their incomes, reducing the tax they and their employees pay, and driving some of them out of business. The VAT just got shifted around.

I'm not saying that the area should have been put into a time capsule, never modified or improved. But to go from the status quo that had worked pretty well to the present ill-conceived monstrosity was a colossal blunder from the start.

[heebeegeetee]

Ah. I was thinking only of the Nordschleife when i posted. What's the fiscal position of that, or is it all wrapped up together?

(I must admit i was completely forgetting about the Bernie factor at the Sudschleife.)

I have my answer . http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a... Tourist Laps: The Future

Edited by heebeegeetee on Saturday 22 January 14:00

[Harry Monk]

heebeegeetee said:

Ah. I was thinking only of the Nordschleife when i posted. What's the fiscal position of that, or is it all wrapped up together?

(I must admit i was completely forgetting about the Bernie factor at the Sudschleife.)

You mean GP circuit?

Sudschleife went defunct many, many years ago.

[heebeegeetee]

Harry Monk said:

heebeegeetee said:

Ah. I was thinking only of the Nordschleife when i posted. What's the fiscal position of that, or is it all wrapped up together?

(I must admit i was completely forgetting about the Bernie factor at the Sudschleife.)

You mean GP circuit?

Sudschleife went defunct many, many years ago.

I do. Is it not still called the sudschleife?

[tertius]

heebeegeetee said:

Harry Monk said:

heebeegeetee said:

Ah. I was thinking only of the Nordschleife when i posted. What's the fiscal position of that, or is it all wrapped up together?

(I must admit i was completely forgetting about the Bernie factor at the Sudschleife.)

You mean GP circuit?

Sudschleife went defunct many, many years ago.

I do. Is it not still called the sudschleife?

No. The Sudschleife was the southern brother (siamese twin?) of the Nordschleife. It was shorter and much less popular. The modern GP circuit (just called the Nurburgring or Nurburgring GP) was built over part of it, part of it reverted to public road and part of it was simply left to decay or demolished.

[mattbvw]

A video of a German TV investigation into the goings on at the ring has just had English subtitles added to it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbf7VsZ1Hx0&fea...

Features an interview with Sabine, the local minister and talks of the impact Lindner & Richter are having...

[flemke]

heebeegeetee said:

Ah. I was thinking only of the Nordschleife when i posted. What's the fiscal position of that, or is it all wrapped up together?

(I must admit i was completely forgetting about the Bernie factor at the Sudschleife.)

I have my answer . http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a... Tourist Laps: The Future

Does something on that thread actually answer your question about financial breakdown between the 2 venues? I'm afraid that I can't see it.

Of the 3 revenue streams out there, 2 could be easily isolated. The Industry Pool uses only the NS, and the TF uses only the NS (99% of the time. On the rare bank holiday, they have opened the full, connected, circuit for TF.)

Racing is a bit more difficult to isolate and allocate. The majority of racing events (F1, DTM, trucks, FIA-GT, etc.) have nothing to do with the NS (although I am confident that the fact that the race is held at the "Nurburgring", rather than at Hockenheim, is marginally appealing to some people).
However, the 'Ring's 2nd-biggest race, which every other year is its biggest race, is the 24 Hours, and that requires both the NS for the circuit and the GP for the pit complex. The same applies to the 10-race VLN series, and components of the Oldtimer and Youngtimer racing weekends. That is, those events perforce use both circuits to generate a single revenue stream.

Both circuits have the same maintenance crews using the same equipment to look after them, and the circuit administration and "management" (obviously, in at least the historical case, one must use that term very loosely) would be shared by both as well.

It is possible that 3 smart people who had intimate knowledge of the place could sit down and collectively estimate the relative economic contribution of the 3 components. Anything short of that would be speculation, even if rubber-stamped by an accountant or politician.

[dustybottoms]

The nostalgia on this thread is obviously typical, people saying they were there in 80’s and 90’s and it was better then; a petrolhead secret shared among a select few who were there for the right reasons, others blaming Top Gear, blaming cocks in Corsa’s, blaming the internet, blaming themselves for taking friends etc etc. Come on guys there were others there way before you!

It is a unique and special place and still remains so.

It’s still a fun place to visit and I agree with the other comments about the road trip blast across Europe with mates, car parks full of some cool machinery, queuing for petrol being fun, the local hotels, bars and restaurants being what it is all collectively about, a place for Petrolheads to be Petrolheads and that is still enjoyable and still worth the money and effort. Long may it reign in one form or another.



Incidentally for nostalgia sakes; my Dad did hundreds of laps of the Ring in the 40’s, he would tell you that it hasn’t been as challenging or as raw as it was in his day for decades, that commercially there was nothing there then: you could join the track at various points as there was no fence and no gates and it was free. It has always been a special place, more so than any other track.

He would still love to go back for one last blast (passenger ride now at his age) as in his opinion there is still nothing else like it anywhere in the world, he thinks it’s great that so many people still want to go and visit what is a unique experience.

[Ross Parker]

Yea charge the big boys loads who own the multimillion pound car marques. I have only been in the week so maybe this is why I didnt come across any "chavs",it was mostly hardcore brit petrolheads who were happy to chat or locals.Much better in the week as not so hectic and less coaches and vans.

[Bodo]

Now, after one season, what happened to this story? Any news?

[Craigyp79]

Well the rollercoaster thingy was closed when I was there for the Oldtimers GP in September!