RE: PH Investigates: Trouble At The 'Ring
Discussion
For me its not just about the "lap" , its all about the road trip there the camaraderie with your pals , the atmosphere and banter in the Pistenklause , the steak on a stone and the felling you have driven and driven hard on imho the most challenging, fast , dangerous race tracks in the world and lived to tell the tale so to speak ..
As a PH I don't think there are many feelings that can compare to when you drive into "that" car park and especially the one you get when you pull back in
Long Live the Ring !!
As a PH I don't think there are many feelings that can compare to when you drive into "that" car park and especially the one you get when you pull back in
Long Live the Ring !!
dbanes said:
Having spent 15 years in Australia and just got back to Blighty my list of things to do included a run around 'the ring', having read about it so often and knowing there's no tarmac rallying here (I've run in Targa Tasmaina a few times), so it's worrying that this automotive experience appears to be turning into a Sunday drive for the family...
Top lurking!!It all looks so fake out there. Lets just hope that whatever happenes, in the future the ring and opportunities it gives remain open to us.
QUOTE "as the 'ring makes the transition from a uniquely charming petrolheads' paradise into a more ruthless commercial enterprise the very things that have inspired such passion among the faithful will be marginalised."
Nicely put I was wondering how to express that myself. The place has been going downhill since Top Gear and other motoring press started promoting it to a wider audience. This just seals the deal. It is, as an old man might say to his bitterly disappointing son in a cheap drama, 'You're dead to me'. RIP Nurburgring I used to love you
Nicely put I was wondering how to express that myself. The place has been going downhill since Top Gear and other motoring press started promoting it to a wider audience. This just seals the deal. It is, as an old man might say to his bitterly disappointing son in a cheap drama, 'You're dead to me'. RIP Nurburgring I used to love you
Edited by Motorrad on Tuesday 18th January 13:52
I visited for a week in April 2010, the weekend was massively busy and I didn't do any laps, just spectating.
The weekdays before that though were perfect, did a few laps one day and saw only 2 or 3 other cars on the 'ring all day
Not so sure if i'm heading back there this year though due to the sheer amount of badly driven cars on the weekend.
The weekdays before that though were perfect, did a few laps one day and saw only 2 or 3 other cars on the 'ring all day
Not so sure if i'm heading back there this year though due to the sheer amount of badly driven cars on the weekend.
I guess this shows my age but I remember my first laps of the Ring driving my mate's dad's Cortina Estate (2.0 which seemed quite pokey then) just after finishing at uni in 1981. The place was almost deserted. I went back almost every year through the 90s, usually with Wheeltorque then with RMA, and on the odd public day. By then I was lucky enough to have a 968CS, then 964RS followed by a 993RS and the private days were fabulous with a very high standard of driving, fabulous cars, and no bikes. The bikers on public days were always a menace and always smearing themselves across the tarmac. However after a long absence I went back with Ron Simmons' outfit in 2008 on a public day and it was carnage. Aside from the usual smeared biker I saw 2 brand new GT3s heavily crashed on my first lap. Both were UK registered...
I like Top Gear but its contribution to raising the general awareness of the Ring outside Germany has been enormous, with inevitable consequences. The commercialisation was perhaps less obviously foreseeable. Sorry to hear about Ron Simmons' difficulties - his was an excellent operation - albeit part of the same commercialisation.
I like Top Gear but its contribution to raising the general awareness of the Ring outside Germany has been enormous, with inevitable consequences. The commercialisation was perhaps less obviously foreseeable. Sorry to hear about Ron Simmons' difficulties - his was an excellent operation - albeit part of the same commercialisation.
Edited by JSE993 on Tuesday 18th January 14:08
Have to echo what GuestGTR said, you can't beat the feeling of pulling back into the car park after a lap. I have only been the last two years but will still keep returning as long as it's there, and I'm sure it isn't going anywhere.
I did also go to the Nurburg spaceship (imagine the hotel from The Shining with cars, but even fewer people) as well (the first year they gave us a free ticket for the following year because it wasn't finished!) and other than laughing at the waxwork of Michael Schumacher it had little to offer anyone. The average petrol head will be bored rigid by it's clunky attempts to appeal to them and anyone attracted to the theme park angle would not travel to go on one rollercoaster!
The great thing about Nurburg other than the circuit is being in a town that is entirely set up, nay exists, because of motorsport. It has to be the only place in the world where queuing up for petrol can be so much fun. If we all just ignore the other bit it might go away
I did also go to the Nurburg spaceship (imagine the hotel from The Shining with cars, but even fewer people) as well (the first year they gave us a free ticket for the following year because it wasn't finished!) and other than laughing at the waxwork of Michael Schumacher it had little to offer anyone. The average petrol head will be bored rigid by it's clunky attempts to appeal to them and anyone attracted to the theme park angle would not travel to go on one rollercoaster!
The great thing about Nurburg other than the circuit is being in a town that is entirely set up, nay exists, because of motorsport. It has to be the only place in the world where queuing up for petrol can be so much fun. If we all just ignore the other bit it might go away
dmitsi said:
dbanes said:
Having spent 15 years in Australia and just got back to Blighty my list of things to do included a run around 'the ring', having read about it so often and knowing there's no tarmac rallying here (I've run in Targa Tasmaina a few times), so it's worrying that this automotive experience appears to be turning into a Sunday drive for the family...
Top lurking!!It all looks so fake out there. Lets just hope that whatever happenes, in the future the ring and opportunities it gives remain open to us.
I don't know what to think about the Top Gear influence here.
I first went before that all started, and it was quieter, but nowhere was open for a coffee or a slash unless you went into the village. The track surface was appalling, and crashes usually meant an entire session closure.
Since more people have been coming (and it's not just Brits, plenty of Germans, French, Belgians too) the facilities have improved, the track is better, and the marshalling (what little there is of it) makes things a lot safer.
On that first trip, for example, I had to use a hi-vis vest as a yellow flag to warn people coming out of Bergwerk that someone in a Mini had hit an Owl, and various bits of both were all over the track. Today some men with cones would turn up and put their safety on the line instead of mine.
Having said that, the standards of driving are sometimes shocking. As a sweeping generalisation there seems to be a lot of Germans who object to tourists using "their" track and will pass on either side, at any point on the track, usually flashing lights and waving their arms.
Then there's the Brits who think they "know" the circuit and inevitably end up in a prang.
I've never had a problem with bikers. They seem adept at killing themselves rather than needing my assistance, although the closures are a nuisance when they do.
If anyone's ever been on a Castle Combe "action day" you'll understand the standard of driving as it exists at the 'ring now. Only with more people, buses, old men in Corollas and bikes sharing the track, and most people thinking they know it because they've played it on a PlayStation.
Top Gear has opened the track to a lot more people - I could never have dreamed of having my stag weekend there back in 2009 if all my mates hadn't seen it on telly. Some of them fell in love with the circuit and the region as I did, and now accompany me on my various jaunts over to the Continent.
Is this maybe how Audi drivers now feel since Clarkson et al. laid into BMWs causing a massive shift in repmobile loyalty?
I first went before that all started, and it was quieter, but nowhere was open for a coffee or a slash unless you went into the village. The track surface was appalling, and crashes usually meant an entire session closure.
Since more people have been coming (and it's not just Brits, plenty of Germans, French, Belgians too) the facilities have improved, the track is better, and the marshalling (what little there is of it) makes things a lot safer.
On that first trip, for example, I had to use a hi-vis vest as a yellow flag to warn people coming out of Bergwerk that someone in a Mini had hit an Owl, and various bits of both were all over the track. Today some men with cones would turn up and put their safety on the line instead of mine.
Having said that, the standards of driving are sometimes shocking. As a sweeping generalisation there seems to be a lot of Germans who object to tourists using "their" track and will pass on either side, at any point on the track, usually flashing lights and waving their arms.
Then there's the Brits who think they "know" the circuit and inevitably end up in a prang.
I've never had a problem with bikers. They seem adept at killing themselves rather than needing my assistance, although the closures are a nuisance when they do.
If anyone's ever been on a Castle Combe "action day" you'll understand the standard of driving as it exists at the 'ring now. Only with more people, buses, old men in Corollas and bikes sharing the track, and most people thinking they know it because they've played it on a PlayStation.
Top Gear has opened the track to a lot more people - I could never have dreamed of having my stag weekend there back in 2009 if all my mates hadn't seen it on telly. Some of them fell in love with the circuit and the region as I did, and now accompany me on my various jaunts over to the Continent.
Is this maybe how Audi drivers now feel since Clarkson et al. laid into BMWs causing a massive shift in repmobile loyalty?
Good eye opening article, thanks for sharing.
Only been once on the way back from our Euro rally and the track was closed owing to this:
The Porsche drivers seemed somewhat less than impressed with our Rover!
You'll know it's all over when the cafe at the track is replaced by a Starbucks!
Only been once on the way back from our Euro rally and the track was closed owing to this:
The Porsche drivers seemed somewhat less than impressed with our Rover!
You'll know it's all over when the cafe at the track is replaced by a Starbucks!
HereBeMonsters said:
Germans who object to tourists using "their" track and will pass on either side, at any point on the track, usually flashing lights and waving their arms.
I think seeing that on top gear was what finaly put me off wanting to go, Sabine Schmitz shouting and waving at other drivers for getting in her way. If I go on a circuit I want to be able to drive at my only ability, not what the person behind thinks I should be doing. (I took her driving at typical as she was happy to do that on TV)I still enjoy my trips across. Just as much for the beer filled ferry trip across to Amsterdam, silly speeds on unrestricted autobahns, relaxing in the villa with an erdinger or out to the pub for a bitburger. Few laps round the ring is just an added bonus to a nice holiday in a pleasent region.
I shall be there again, hopefully next year.
I shall be there again, hopefully next year.
guestGTR said:
For me its not just about the "lap" , its all about the road trip there the camaraderie with your pals , the atmosphere and banter in the Pistenklause , the steak on a stone and the felling you have driven and driven hard on imho the most challenging, fast , dangerous race tracks in the world and lived to tell the tale so to speak ..
As a PH I don't think there are many feelings that can compare to when you drive into "that" car park and especially the one you get when you pull back in
Long Live the Ring !!
As a PH I don't think there are many feelings that can compare to when you drive into "that" car park and especially the one you get when you pull back in
Long Live the Ring !!
I've been over in my own car, but since then I have also been happy to go over as a passenger.
It's a nice feeling being able to just immerse yourself in the atmosphere and being able to drink as much as you want (when you want).
PaulMoor said:
HereBeMonsters said:
Germans who object to tourists using "their" track and will pass on either side, at any point on the track, usually flashing lights and waving their arms.
I think seeing that on top gear was what finaly put me off wanting to go, Sabine Schmitz shouting and waving at other drivers for getting in her way. If I go on a circuit I want to be able to drive at my only ability, not what the person behind thinks I should be doing. (I took her driving at typical as she was happy to do that on TV)It's not just her though, it's these 50 year old w
kers who think they're Walter Rorhl in their GT 3 RSs. Well done, you have a fast car and know the circuit. Go to an organised track day if you don't want to be inconvienced by people like my brother in a 1.1 Saxo on his first ever lap.Interesting mix of opinions here. We have people not wanting to go because it's turned into a Sunday drive, people scared of punters going all out for lap times, others who have never been but then expound at length with ill-informed pub wisdom and those who I am thoroughloy jealous of who experienced the track in the mid 90s when it was probably at its peachiest point.
One thing I would like to clear up is the whole Top Gear thing. I was there on the day Clarkson filmed the S-TYPE 10 minute lap piece and it was HEAVING. The queues to get off the track extended way back almost to the gantry on Dottinger Hohe so to pin the Ring's popularity on Top Gear is entirely erroneous. Since then it's become quieter. Visitor numbers have decayed in the past two years due to unfavourable exchange rates for UK customers, rocketing lap ticket prices and the general state of the economy.
I do think that the overall standard of driving at the Ring is worse than ever. Back in the nineties, a guy could rock up at the Ring in a reasonable car, notch an 11 or 12 minute lap and leave feeling fairly pleased with himself. These days there is enormous pressure to be fast. To be faster than Clarkson. To be faster than your mate. To be faster than the guy on the forum. To be faster than the guy on Youtube. The inevitable consequence is that rookies are crashing more often and more seriously.
There's also the experience curve effect. My first trip was in 1997 in a Honda Accord on the way to the Frankfurt Show and yes, I did drive straight across Adenauer Forst. Since then I've noticed that drivers were getting quicker simply because they'd logged a huge number of laps. After many hundreds of laps, I can now drive an 8 minute BTG(cue driving god taunts) but wouldn't want a beginner to try to imitate my driving. I remember being scared witless many years ago by a guy who did a 9m30s BTG in an Audi TT, thinking it was the most incredible piece of driving I'd ever seen. Noob. Experienced Ringers have logged the hours. There's no fast track to that experience. Hours spent on GT5 don't help. Buying horsepower often doesn't help. The flipside of this is that the faster you get, the more frustrating and unfulfilling TF driving becomes. I've spoken to a number of experienced TF drivers who reach a stage where they grow out of it. The challenge for the Ring management will be to bring through a new generation of TF drivers without pricing them out of the market.
Enough rambling from this old fart.
One thing I would like to clear up is the whole Top Gear thing. I was there on the day Clarkson filmed the S-TYPE 10 minute lap piece and it was HEAVING. The queues to get off the track extended way back almost to the gantry on Dottinger Hohe so to pin the Ring's popularity on Top Gear is entirely erroneous. Since then it's become quieter. Visitor numbers have decayed in the past two years due to unfavourable exchange rates for UK customers, rocketing lap ticket prices and the general state of the economy.
I do think that the overall standard of driving at the Ring is worse than ever. Back in the nineties, a guy could rock up at the Ring in a reasonable car, notch an 11 or 12 minute lap and leave feeling fairly pleased with himself. These days there is enormous pressure to be fast. To be faster than Clarkson. To be faster than your mate. To be faster than the guy on the forum. To be faster than the guy on Youtube. The inevitable consequence is that rookies are crashing more often and more seriously.
There's also the experience curve effect. My first trip was in 1997 in a Honda Accord on the way to the Frankfurt Show and yes, I did drive straight across Adenauer Forst. Since then I've noticed that drivers were getting quicker simply because they'd logged a huge number of laps. After many hundreds of laps, I can now drive an 8 minute BTG(cue driving god taunts) but wouldn't want a beginner to try to imitate my driving. I remember being scared witless many years ago by a guy who did a 9m30s BTG in an Audi TT, thinking it was the most incredible piece of driving I'd ever seen. Noob. Experienced Ringers have logged the hours. There's no fast track to that experience. Hours spent on GT5 don't help. Buying horsepower often doesn't help. The flipside of this is that the faster you get, the more frustrating and unfulfilling TF driving becomes. I've spoken to a number of experienced TF drivers who reach a stage where they grow out of it. The challenge for the Ring management will be to bring through a new generation of TF drivers without pricing them out of the market.
Enough rambling from this old fart.
Surely if people want a track day with no novices you can go on one of the many operated through out Europe inc. the Ring? What right does anyone (pointing to nobody in particular) have over anyone else? Last time I checked there was no requirement to be a pro-driver, hence why you get German dad's with kids on there having a look round and buses, vans and whatever else. I even saw a granny and granddad on there last time I went. Its a Toll road right? (We all know this argument no need to drag it up.)
It's still petrolhead Nirvana and most people aren't Nikki Lauder so should enjoy it for what it is if you are there on a TF day. Its not going anywhere unless the law decides to stop it. It will always be profitable in its own right without all the Nurodisney rubbish and I will be going back at some point. (Now that might be a reason not to go!)
I would suggest to anybody who is put off, don't be, go and check it out! Just don't expect everyone to be the same standard and yes it is and has always been dangerous-ish.
It's still petrolhead Nirvana and most people aren't Nikki Lauder so should enjoy it for what it is if you are there on a TF day. Its not going anywhere unless the law decides to stop it. It will always be profitable in its own right without all the Nurodisney rubbish and I will be going back at some point. (Now that might be a reason not to go!)
I would suggest to anybody who is put off, don't be, go and check it out! Just don't expect everyone to be the same standard and yes it is and has always been dangerous-ish.
HereBeMonsters said:
PaulMoor said:
HereBeMonsters said:
Germans who object to tourists using "their" track and will pass on either side, at any point on the track, usually flashing lights and waving their arms.
I think seeing that on top gear was what finaly put me off wanting to go, Sabine Schmitz shouting and waving at other drivers for getting in her way. If I go on a circuit I want to be able to drive at my only ability, not what the person behind thinks I should be doing. (I took her driving at typical as she was happy to do that on TV)It's not just her though, it's these 50 year old w
kers who think they're Walter Rorhl in their GT 3 RSs. Well done, you have a fast car and know the circuit. Go to an organised track day if you don't want to be inconvienced by people like my brother in a 1.1 Saxo on his first ever lap.While we're all wallowing in nostalgia, here's a photo of the main straight, taken on a Saturday afternoon in May 2003:
The whole lap had been like that - two of us in convoy and not another car to be seen. We'd parked in the main car park, right next to the cafe. There was the three of us, some crazy Dutch Morgan drivers, a couple of Brit TVRs, a handful of bikers and that was about it. Not a closure all day. Definitely "The right crowd, and no crowding".
The last time I went was in 2007 & there were no-necked brit teenagers driving Corsas with exhausts I could fit my head in.
The biggest block for me these days is insurance - I am not willing to put my car, house and therefore my marriage on the line for the sake of a few laps.
My only hope is that in 10 years everyone will have forgotten about it & I can sneak over again. As mentioned above, it's not just the laps but the cameraderie of the whole trip that I miss...
The whole lap had been like that - two of us in convoy and not another car to be seen. We'd parked in the main car park, right next to the cafe. There was the three of us, some crazy Dutch Morgan drivers, a couple of Brit TVRs, a handful of bikers and that was about it. Not a closure all day. Definitely "The right crowd, and no crowding".
The last time I went was in 2007 & there were no-necked brit teenagers driving Corsas with exhausts I could fit my head in.
The biggest block for me these days is insurance - I am not willing to put my car, house and therefore my marriage on the line for the sake of a few laps.
My only hope is that in 10 years everyone will have forgotten about it & I can sneak over again. As mentioned above, it's not just the laps but the cameraderie of the whole trip that I miss...
HereBeMonsters said:
PaulMoor said:
HereBeMonsters said:
Germans who object to tourists using "their" track and will pass on either side, at any point on the track, usually flashing lights and waving their arms.
I think seeing that on top gear was what finaly put me off wanting to go, Sabine Schmitz shouting and waving at other drivers for getting in her way. If I go on a circuit I want to be able to drive at my only ability, not what the person behind thinks I should be doing. (I took her driving at typical as she was happy to do that on TV)It's not just her though, it's these 50 year old w
kers who think they're Walter Rorhl in their GT 3 RSs. Well done, you have a fast car and know the circuit. Go to an organised track day if you don't want to be inconvienced by people like my brother in a 1.1 Saxo on his first ever lap.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff