RE: PH Investigates: Trouble At The 'Ring
Discussion
Mr Whippy said:
But it's all ok to get away with what is essentially the same on the one way delimited toll road it seems 
Dave
Cheers Dave.Dave
A similar thought did occur to me last night - everyone on here is referring to it as a race track (OK, OK, it can be...), which perhaps is part of the difference - maybe in the past people treated it as a 'playground' and now more often it's treated as a 'racetrack' - and one where they're chasing times, at that!
My heart bleeds...as with everything in this world today, commercialism takes over and stuffs eveything up that has been built up carefully and in empathy with the people involved over decades - excatly as Sabine said.
Let it all fall in a heap and start again is my suggestion with passion for racing being the driver not profit. Should do the same to the banks here in the UK
And dont even get me started on those idiots at Tw*t Gear / Top G*ts...
Let it all fall in a heap and start again is my suggestion with passion for racing being the driver not profit. Should do the same to the banks here in the UK
And dont even get me started on those idiots at Tw*t Gear / Top G*ts...
predding said:
Let it all fall in a heap and start again is my suggestion with passion for racing being the driver not profit. Should do the same to the banks here in the UK
But as said a few posts above, before that happens a lot of good people - the locals who've genuinely welcomed petrolheads for years and provided good hospitality and food - will lose their jobs/livelihoods as the competition from this monolith drives their margins down and their visitor numbers down.Tying everything together - circuit pass, accomodation, food, sundries - is great for the business of the owner, but will marginalise everyone else - those who've helped build it up over the years but have no direct stake because it all used to be state-owned.
When i was buying E30 M3's in Germany i would stop off at the ring and shake the car down with a few laps. That was in 1998... there was no barriers you just rocked up and an old guy would step out off his wooden centry box and take your money. I went round in mid winter, track was wet and snow around verges nearly spun into steel barrier on bend 3.... no one else on circuit... came down the main straight ,noticed the gate was up at the end.... and went onto the new circuit. There were a few workman repairing some potholes... they gave me the thumbs up as i passed them at speed just a few feet away from their shovels...
This unfortunately happens everywhere with popularity. When I first started doing track days for example it was with a small group of people hiring old airfields for s
ts and giggles. Other than the costs in tyres, it was cheap good fun. As it got more popular, airfield owners realised there was money to be made here from these idiots with plastic sports cars and started ramping the price. Which was the begining of the end of the good old days. I still enjoy trackdays, but they're different now. They've lost a lot of the friendship and comraderie that used to go on between the attendees. It used to be as much about the social side of it than it was about the driving. Sure there are days run with a flavour of the old days, but it's not the same as it was.
It happens with everything as soon as it becomes apparent there's money to be had, someone will want it. It's inevitable and in all cases we'll all look back on the good old days and how it was. But it's almost certainly over and the commercial side is here to stay. Sad, but the way of the world.
ts and giggles. Other than the costs in tyres, it was cheap good fun. As it got more popular, airfield owners realised there was money to be made here from these idiots with plastic sports cars and started ramping the price. Which was the begining of the end of the good old days. I still enjoy trackdays, but they're different now. They've lost a lot of the friendship and comraderie that used to go on between the attendees. It used to be as much about the social side of it than it was about the driving. Sure there are days run with a flavour of the old days, but it's not the same as it was.It happens with everything as soon as it becomes apparent there's money to be had, someone will want it. It's inevitable and in all cases we'll all look back on the good old days and how it was. But it's almost certainly over and the commercial side is here to stay. Sad, but the way of the world.
juansolo said:
This unfortunately happens everywhere with popularity. When I first started doing track days for example it was with a small group of people hiring old airfields for sts and giggles. Other than the costs in tyres, it was cheap good fun. As it got more popular, airfield owners realised there was money to be made here from these idiots with plastic sports cars and started ramping the price. Which was the begining of the end of the good old days. I still enjoy trackdays, but they're different now. They've lost a lot of the friendship and comraderie that used to go on between the attendees. It used to be as much about the social side of it than it was about the driving. Sure there are days run with a flavour of the old days, but it's not the same as it was.
ts and giggles. Other than the costs in tyres, it was cheap good fun. As it got more popular, airfield owners realised there was money to be made here from these idiots with plastic sports cars and started ramping the price. Which was the begining of the end of the good old days. I still enjoy trackdays, but they're different now. They've lost a lot of the friendship and comraderie that used to go on between the attendees. It used to be as much about the social side of it than it was about the driving. Sure there are days run with a flavour of the old days, but it's not the same as it was.
Other than the MSE airfield days, I've not really enjoyed any trackdays in the last 2-3 years. Usually people with more money than talent who get upset when you pass them in what they deem to be an "inferior" car. They then repass on the straights and ignore the blue flags, and almost never ever get called up on it. Brands was terrible for that. I had people passing me under braking, not moving over for me, and trying to drift right in front of me. Trying being the operative word. Shame as the track was brilliant. Perhaps I'll give it another go as that was 3-4 years ago?
The only days I've been on which have had that sense of cameraderie are the MSE events, people are usually very courteous and leave large gaps. In fact most are so obliging that if I catch up with someone and try to follow their lines they will generally move over at the first opportunity and spoil my fun!
Other than that, it was only Spa that had the same friendly vibe. I guess we all realised we needed to get home in our cars and didn't fancy having to get the car recovered from darkest Belgium.
havoc said:
Mr Whippy said:
But it's all ok to get away with what is essentially the same on the one way delimited toll road it seems
Dave
Cheers Dave.Dave
A similar thought did occur to me last night - everyone on here is referring to it as a race track (OK, OK, it can be...), which perhaps is part of the difference - maybe in the past people treated it as a 'playground' and now more often it's treated as a 'racetrack' - and one where they're chasing times, at that!
A good driver in a fast car realising it's not a playground, but a shared space for everyone. As soon as a propoprtion of drivers stop thinking that way, it's going to go downhill.
Plenty of todays users clearly see it as a race track and that will be a big problem... but probably one that is quietly ignored because it's no good if people can't go there with all their money and drive it like a cheap track day, come piss up, come stag-do break
A victim of it's own success, but I think the real problem is the greed getting in the way of all else, and that includes making sure those using it on TF days are obeying good road craft and consideration for others.
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Wednesday 19th January 09:50
I did a couple of trackdays through wheeltorque many years ago. Happy days: I was there standing on the armco waiting for the R500 to get the record, which it did. Drinking too much in the bar at the Dorint. Although the best memory was redlining it along the big straight at 120-ish when a Guld/Davidoff liveried McLaren F1 flew past doing probably 100mph more than me. I nearly s**t myself.
williamp said:
Its gone the same way as Le Mans.
Used to be busy, but with knoeledgable (sp?) people. Now, le Mans has a lot of "race, what race??" people. I kow ones a race and ones a track day, but its the same mindset of people.
I'd agree with that. Le Mans 2003 was a different world to Le Mans 2006.Used to be busy, but with knoeledgable (sp?) people. Now, le Mans has a lot of "race, what race??" people. I kow ones a race and ones a track day, but its the same mindset of people.
Harry Monk said:
Interesting mix of opinions here. We have people not wanting to go because it's turned into a Sunday drive, people scared of punters going all out for lap times, others who have never been but then expound at length with ill-informed pub wisdom and those who I am thoroughloy jealous of who experienced the track in the mid 90s when it was probably at its peachiest point.
One thing I would like to clear up is the whole Top Gear thing. I was there on the day Clarkson filmed the S-TYPE 10 minute lap piece and it was HEAVING. The queues to get off the track extended way back almost to the gantry on Dottinger Hohe so to pin the Ring's popularity on Top Gear is entirely erroneous. Since then it's become quieter. Visitor numbers have decayed in the past two years due to unfavourable exchange rates for UK customers, rocketing lap ticket prices and the general state of the economy.
I do think that the overall standard of driving at the Ring is worse than ever. Back in the nineties, a guy could rock up at the Ring in a reasonable car, notch an 11 or 12 minute lap and leave feeling fairly pleased with himself. These days there is enormous pressure to be fast. To be faster than Clarkson. To be faster than your mate. To be faster than the guy on the forum. To be faster than the guy on Youtube. The inevitable consequence is that rookies are crashing more often and more seriously.
There's also the experience curve effect. My first trip was in 1997 in a Honda Accord on the way to the Frankfurt Show and yes, I did drive straight across Adenauer Forst. Since then I've noticed that drivers were getting quicker simply because they'd logged a huge number of laps. After many hundreds of laps, I can now drive an 8 minute BTG(cue driving god taunts) but wouldn't want a beginner to try to imitate my driving. I remember being scared witless many years ago by a guy who did a 9m30s BTG in an Audi TT, thinking it was the most incredible piece of driving I'd ever seen. Noob. Experienced Ringers have logged the hours. There's no fast track to that experience. Hours spent on GT5 don't help. Buying horsepower often doesn't help. The flipside of this is that the faster you get, the more frustrating and unfulfilling TF driving becomes. I've spoken to a number of experienced TF drivers who reach a stage where they grow out of it. The challenge for the Ring management will be to bring through a new generation of TF drivers without pricing them out of the market.
Enough rambling from this old fart.
Nice, informative post here.One thing I would like to clear up is the whole Top Gear thing. I was there on the day Clarkson filmed the S-TYPE 10 minute lap piece and it was HEAVING. The queues to get off the track extended way back almost to the gantry on Dottinger Hohe so to pin the Ring's popularity on Top Gear is entirely erroneous. Since then it's become quieter. Visitor numbers have decayed in the past two years due to unfavourable exchange rates for UK customers, rocketing lap ticket prices and the general state of the economy.
I do think that the overall standard of driving at the Ring is worse than ever. Back in the nineties, a guy could rock up at the Ring in a reasonable car, notch an 11 or 12 minute lap and leave feeling fairly pleased with himself. These days there is enormous pressure to be fast. To be faster than Clarkson. To be faster than your mate. To be faster than the guy on the forum. To be faster than the guy on Youtube. The inevitable consequence is that rookies are crashing more often and more seriously.
There's also the experience curve effect. My first trip was in 1997 in a Honda Accord on the way to the Frankfurt Show and yes, I did drive straight across Adenauer Forst. Since then I've noticed that drivers were getting quicker simply because they'd logged a huge number of laps. After many hundreds of laps, I can now drive an 8 minute BTG(cue driving god taunts) but wouldn't want a beginner to try to imitate my driving. I remember being scared witless many years ago by a guy who did a 9m30s BTG in an Audi TT, thinking it was the most incredible piece of driving I'd ever seen. Noob. Experienced Ringers have logged the hours. There's no fast track to that experience. Hours spent on GT5 don't help. Buying horsepower often doesn't help. The flipside of this is that the faster you get, the more frustrating and unfulfilling TF driving becomes. I've spoken to a number of experienced TF drivers who reach a stage where they grow out of it. The challenge for the Ring management will be to bring through a new generation of TF drivers without pricing them out of the market.
Enough rambling from this old fart.
Edited by M3John on Wednesday 19th January 09:58
TG isn't so much to blame perhaps, as much as video games featuring the Ring making it fairly mainstream.
Looking back, GPL was the only game with the Ring in it, and it was only the GP Ring, narrow main straight, old GP part, Steilstreke, etc. Quite different to the modern version we all know.
But come GT4, PGR2, (early 00's?) and almost every mainstream console arcadey racer since, and the Ring has been in there.
I wonder how much influence that has had on people wanting to go drive there and set their own time faster than their mates etc etc...
Might not have done, just another observation or thing to blame aside from Top Gear (which imo kinda got onto the hype after the boat had already sailed wrt the Ring being common knowledge to most 'car' people)
Dave
Looking back, GPL was the only game with the Ring in it, and it was only the GP Ring, narrow main straight, old GP part, Steilstreke, etc. Quite different to the modern version we all know.
But come GT4, PGR2, (early 00's?) and almost every mainstream console arcadey racer since, and the Ring has been in there.
I wonder how much influence that has had on people wanting to go drive there and set their own time faster than their mates etc etc...
Might not have done, just another observation or thing to blame aside from Top Gear (which imo kinda got onto the hype after the boat had already sailed wrt the Ring being common knowledge to most 'car' people)
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Wednesday 19th January 10:46
Interesting thread. Yes it seems money does eventually ruin everything. As said, from airfields to the tracks. Even as a small child I used to love taking my 1/8th scale petrol rc car to the deserted Tesco's car park on a sunday. That's another thing of the past. Too much money to be made.
ringweekends said:
havoc said:
You were being overtaken by a 996 GT3 (which proceeded up my left-hand-side with plenty of space), and you couldn't be arsed to slow-down for me, instead squeezing between me and the grass on the right, despite my indicating right as I saw you both bearing down on me. If I'd not done a life-saver I'd have moved left straight into your path
I'm sorry - I've read that a few times and I'm still confused.I've been out with George more than a few times and he's a gentleman not prone to driving like a cock. You're on your first ever lap. I appreciate it must have been a bit intense for you but reading the above respectfully suggest you may have been a little confused as to which side you needed to be.
Still - I see your experience repeated often on the Ring, but the great mix of abilities and vehicles are what makes TF so special, and why each lap is still interesting for me.
juansolo said:
This unfortunately happens everywhere with popularity. When I first started doing track days for example it was with a small group of people hiring old airfields for sts and giggles. Other than the costs in tyres, it was cheap good fun. As it got more popular, airfield owners realised there was money to be made here from these idiots with plastic sports cars and started ramping the price. Which was the begining of the end of the good old days. I still enjoy trackdays, but they're different now. They've lost a lot of the friendship and comraderie that used to go on between the attendees. It used to be as much about the social side of it than it was about the driving. Sure there are days run with a flavour of the old days, but it's not the same as it was.
It happens with everything as soon as it becomes apparent there's money to be had, someone will want it. It's inevitable and in all cases we'll all look back on the good old days and how it was. But it's almost certainly over and the commercial side is here to stay. Sad, but the way of the world.
Although there does tend to be a gradual deterioration of the specialness of anything that is both good and available to all, that deterioration is normally much less in publicly-owned assets. In 2 centuries or whatever, Hyde Park has not been changed all that much, although the commercial potentialities must be enormous.ts and giggles. Other than the costs in tyres, it was cheap good fun. As it got more popular, airfield owners realised there was money to be made here from these idiots with plastic sports cars and started ramping the price. Which was the begining of the end of the good old days. I still enjoy trackdays, but they're different now. They've lost a lot of the friendship and comraderie that used to go on between the attendees. It used to be as much about the social side of it than it was about the driving. Sure there are days run with a flavour of the old days, but it's not the same as it was.It happens with everything as soon as it becomes apparent there's money to be had, someone will want it. It's inevitable and in all cases we'll all look back on the good old days and how it was. But it's almost certainly over and the commercial side is here to stay. Sad, but the way of the world.
The problem here was that there was very little oversight or transparency. A small group of dubious people, including outright criminals, were in a position to do something for themselves, and there was no check on them until it was too late. In Germany, the Nordschleife is not like Silverstone - well-known to motor sports enthusiasts but unknown to everyone else. Rather, the NS is a national icon - maybe not quite like Stonehenge, but not that far off, either. The crooks were in part able to do what they did because of the political organisation of Germany, which has a federal structure. Each state (in this case, Rheinland-Pfalz) has got considerable freedom of action. Because R-P owned Nurburgring GmbH, the governance of the national icon was out of the public eye, residing as it did in the sleepy mountains on the Luxembourg border. The perps took advantage of the lack of visibility. It might have "worked" (in the way that they had envisaged), if they had not been idiots.
monthefish said:
ringweekends said:
havoc said:
You were being overtaken by a 996 GT3 (which proceeded up my left-hand-side with plenty of space), and you couldn't be arsed to slow-down for me, instead squeezing between me and the grass on the right, despite my indicating right as I saw you both bearing down on me. If I'd not done a life-saver I'd have moved left straight into your path
I'm sorry - I've read that a few times and I'm still confused.I've been out with George more than a few times and he's a gentleman not prone to driving like a cock. You're on your first ever lap. I appreciate it must have been a bit intense for you but reading the above respectfully suggest you may have been a little confused as to which side you needed to be.
Still - I see your experience repeated often on the Ring, but the great mix of abilities and vehicles are what makes TF so special, and why each lap is still interesting for me.
It's a shame when stuff does go downhill, but it is also wrong when people take on this whole "what are these new people doing here, this is OUR playground" type attitude.
People seem quick to forget that they were the newbies once upon a time, and elitist attitudes really boil my piss!
People seem quick to forget that they were the newbies once upon a time, and elitist attitudes really boil my piss!
BlueTwo2 said:
It's a shame when stuff does go downhill, but it is also wrong when people take on this whole "what are these new people doing here, this is OUR playground" type attitude.
People seem quick to forget that they were the newbies once upon a time, and elitist attitudes really boil my piss!
If your quiet local pub got invaded by young teenagers, and over a few months became a young persons pub with loud music on and stuff, you wouldn't like it.People seem quick to forget that they were the newbies once upon a time, and elitist attitudes really boil my piss!
It's not the volume of people, it's the type of people, and the apparent change of TF days/trips/locale to appeal to that new type of customer that I think is the problem.
It needs to get back to what it clearly isn't now, a commercial paradise (well that was the goal I guess), where throughput comes before quality of clientele!
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