RE: PH Heroes: Honda NSX

[havoc]

Harry Monk said:

...but I found it a real eye-opener that so many buyers of what is marketed as a focused performance car didn't have a clue how to drive.

Not entirely surprised, but I wonder if you're being a little harsh / arrogant. But it may explain (apropos of nothing in particular to this thread) why Lotus have remained a niche manufacturer and Porsche/BMW sell by the shed-load.

...and if your comment IS accurate, then taking it to its logical conclusion, it could be argued that the ultimate abilities of a car/chassis aren't relevant outside the rarefied atmosphere of 'dab of oppo' magazine and the truly talented minority (handling developers* and amateur racers upwards).


So why do we bother talking about it on here? Especially as any one of us could be part of that 'minority', or a ham-fisted member of the majority, and no-one else will necessarily know.

IMHO it matters because MOST users are just everyday enthusiasts - those ham-fisted people you saw on the driver day - and therefore how they find/experience the car is more relevant to a typical buyer than how much oversteer a journo can get, or how exquisitely balanced a chassis someone like Matt Becker or M. Schumacher thinks it has. I pay more attention to the consensus on PH than I do to most car magazines, as PHers are more likely to be owners/ex-owners AND regular guys like me, not 'driving gods'.




* Note: not just engineers - met plenty of engineers at J&LR who had all of the finesse and mechanical sympathy God gave to a plantpot.

[Harry Monk]

Those are extremely valid points and I don't want to come across as arrogant or condescending. I was merely a bit crestfallen that this magnificent car had been developed and it was being driven by klutzes. I guess the silver lining was that said klutzes were at least attempting to improve their skills by signing up to a Lotus training day. I am no Matt Becker behind the wheel but I know (just about) enough to be able to differentiate the relative merits of one vehicle's chassis compared to the next. That often involves driving it in a fashion beyond which it is likely to be used by the vast majority of owners.

I know that it's tedious to see a Nissan Serena or something similar with its tail hanging out in a magazine road test and much of the time road testers are caught up in their own little God complex, but a sporting car needs to be seriously extended in order to assess its talents. You can't do that at 6/10ths. I have all the time in the world for 'real life' ownership views which is why I've been posting on PH so long. I learn as much if not more about a vehicle by listening to how people use and enjoy their cars on PH as I do from flogging them up the Ronda road on a press launch.

Edited by Harry Monk on Tuesday 1st February 19:05

[dinkel]

edo said:

dinkel said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAwJsOECGBU
Senna driving one.

Love that video of him driving. But the shoes and socks! NO NO NO!

Those were the days.

[Harry Monk]

dinkel said:

edo said:

dinkel said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAwJsOECGBU
Senna driving one.

Love that video of him driving. But the shoes and socks! NO NO NO!

Those were the days.

"Bag of ste" - standard racing driver comment after getting out of a road car.

That was a lovely hold at 2:05s

[thegreenhell]

Harry Monk said:

I underwent some driver training at Hethel. While I was there, I used to see the punter days that Lotus ran and the standard of driving was genuinely appalling. Shocking stuff. I think the changes to the S2 Elise made it a better and massively safer car for maybe 90% of all Elise customers. I don't know what your level of driver skill is but I found it a real eye-opener that so many buyers of what is marketed as a focused performance car didn't have a clue how to drive.

I don't want to take this interesting thread further off topic, but this video demonstrates the point about the Elise S2 in the hands of a klutz, although he is clearly playing up for the camera as usual:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmPjzeZFgtQ&t=2...

[thegreenhell]

Harry Monk said:

NoelWatson said:

An example

http://groups.google.com/group/es.charla.motor/bro...

1997
Lap times around Castle Combe circuit, under damp conditions.


1 Ferrari F50 69.37
2 Ferrari 550 Maranello 72.04
3 Honda NSX 72.20
4 Chrysler GTS 72.86
5 Caterham Superlight R 73.17
6 Nissan Skyline GT-R 73.09
7 Lotus Esprit GT3 74.40
8 Porsche 911 Carrera 4 74.89
9 Jaguar XJR V8 76.20
10 Venturi Atlantique 76.71
11 Subaru Impreza Turbo 76.83
12 Porsche Boxster 77.52
13 Honda Integra-R 78.94
14 BMW Z3 2.8 79.02
15 Lotus Elise 79.05
16 Peugeot 106 GTI 79.63
17 Renault Sport Spider 79.83
18 Ford Puma 83.15
19 MGF VVC 85.80
20 Ford Ka2 94.81

That is some ferocious pedalling in the Honda.

In that same link, found Car's subjective rankings interesting/baffling for any number of reasons.

1º Lotus Elise
2º Subaru Impreza Turbo
3º MGF
4º Honda NSX
5º Peugot 106 GTI
6º Caterham Superlight
7º Peugeot 306 GTI-6
8º Lamborghini Diablo SV
9º Toyota Supra
10º Mercedes Benz E36 AMG
11º Jaguar XK8
12º Nissan Primera Sri
13º Porsche 911
14º Nissan GT-RV
15º BMW M3 Evo
16º BMW 528i
17º Citroen Xantia Activa
18º Alfa Romeo GTV
19º BMW 318ti Compact
20º TVR Cerbera

The chicanes weren't installed at Castle Combe until 1999, and before then it was a very fast circuit, so you need to bear that in mind if trying to interpret the laptimes.

With regards the second, subjective ranking, buy an MGF instead of an NSX: they're better, apparently, and much cheaper too.

[NoelWatson]

trackdemon said:

Talk of horsepower & ultimate 0-60 standing start times misses the point of the NSX, its about the whole driving experience not just straight line ability. When new in '91 276bhp was hardly groundbreaking so its not going to be now.... However it does seem to make the very best of what it has - a large powerband, good aero efficiency & lowish weight seem to help it achieve decent numbers and it certainly feels plenty quick enough on the road, especially so if you use the gearbox to keep the revs beyond 5k rpm (hardly a chore with such a nice shift action). FWIW here's a list of a few different cars trap speeds as recorded @ various VMAX events (Bruntingthorpe):

Griffith 500 156mph
993 C2 158mph
Maserati 3200GT 160mph
NSX 3.0 160mph
M3 CSL 161mph
Cayman S 163mph
Z3M Coupe 163mph
996 C2 163mph
Z4M Coupe 164mph
Ferrari 355 166mph
TVR Tuscan 166mph

Pretty close to some more modern machinery really, its plenty quick enough for the public road....

But the NSX is about the handling and using the drivetrain, not just pure speed. A fast winding British B road suits it better - or even better, the Route Napolean...

Great car. Will be very sad to sell mine (which I need to in the next few months really )

And apparently 165mph for the V8 Vantage,

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=1&a...


which surprised me, as they have 380bhp, but after going in one yesterday, it would seem that around 90% of the power below 5000rpm goes down the exhaust pipe.

[Deano_BMW]

saw this parked up at work today, perspex rear screen, quick release hinges everywhere, uprated brakes all round, extra gauges, very neat numberplate.

[havoc]

That's Leo's car...rather quicker than usual!

If you see him (if you know him he's hard to miss...), say 'hi' from me - not seen him since July.


Edit: Nice 5er behind the NSX.

[Deano_BMW]

yeah, theres always loads of nice cars in the car park.
I did hope i'd catch the owner as it was a beautiful looking car, and obviously has had lots of time money and love lavished on it. Lots of (what i perceive to be) great upgrades.
The thing i was most impressed by though was that he managed to get it down the ramps, over the speed bumps etc, the car parks at canary wharf are pretty hostile.

[silver surfer]

13LM is the ONLY turbo NSX in the UK AFAIK...but not for long!

Great 'Batmobile'

SS

[trackdemon]

havoc said:

That's Leo's car...rather quicker than usual!

If you see him (if you know him he's hard to miss...), say 'hi' from me - not seen him since July.


Edit: Nice 5er behind the NSX.

Wow, thats rather tasty & right in my manor!! Care to drop me a PM Havoc? Would love to get in touch with the owner to see if he's up for a magazine shoot....

[Niffty951]

NoelWatson said:

Harry Monk said:

That is some ferocious pedalling in the Honda.

In that same link, found Car's subjective rankings interesting/baffling for any number of reasons.

1º Lotus Elise
2º Subaru Impreza Turbo
3º MGF
4º Honda NSX
5º Peugot 106 GTI
6º Caterham Superlight
7º Peugeot 306 GTI-6
8º Lamborghini Diablo SV
9º Toyota Supra
10º Mercedes Benz E36 AMG
11º Jaguar XK8
12º Nissan Primera Sri
13º Porsche 911
14º Nissan GT-RV
15º BMW M3 Evo
16º BMW 528i
17º Citroen Xantia Activa
18º Alfa Romeo GTV
19º BMW 318ti Compact
20º TVR Cerbera

I was impressed by the 106GTI - got close to Elise despite a weight penalty. I recall from a test (could be that one) that the GTI6 was not good on track, but excellent on the road.

WTF! I just got to this page from a link on another thread and no idea where that link came from but a Subaru Impreza at no. 2? ..higher than the Cerbera, 911 and many other fantastic handling cars!! Seriously who, why?!

I mean I personally wouldn't rate the Elise first because the lack of enough power to steer on the throttle started to upset me after 20/30 mins at the wheel, but I can respect the purity/flickability and my power thirst is just my own issue.. But that order is seriously skew! The subaru doesn't ever let the driver know which end is going to slip when you reach the limit. Communication/adjustability is very poor.

[Smike]

Saw one in really nice condition up town on Saturday





Don't see them that often nowadays, especially out in the sticks

[Dagnut]

Niffty951 said:

The subaru doesn't ever let the driver know which end is going to slip when you reach the limit. Communication/adjustability is very poor.

A standard car will always understeer.

[Gwagon111]

scampbird said:

I was his target market. I've owned both S1 and S2 Elises. Fair enough, I'm not the driver he is, but I know what I like. And the S2 sucked donkey arse through a straw.

A straw, you say? .

[Gwagon111]

Niffty951 said:

WTF! I just got to this page from a link on another thread and no idea where that link came from but a Subaru Impreza at no. 2? ..higher than the Cerbera, 911 and many other fantastic handling cars!! Seriously who, why?!

I mean I personally wouldn't rate the Elise first because the lack of enough power to steer on the throttle started to upset me after 20/30 mins at the wheel, but I can respect the purity/flickability and my power thirst is just my own issue.. But that order is seriously skew! The subaru doesn't ever let the driver know which end is going to slip when you reach the limit. Communication/adjustability is very poor.

It depends on the criteria of the test. The list is fairly accurate, if they are trying to establish which car's handling can be influenced, changed, or adjusted most easily simply by driver input. That is to say which cars handling is reactive against cars who's handling dictates the required inputs from the driver. Is the driver taking the dog for a walk, or is the dog dragging the driver along on it's walk.

[Niffty951]

Gwagon111 said:

Niffty951 said:

WTF! I just got to this page from a link on another thread and no idea where that link came from but a Subaru Impreza at no. 2? ..higher than the Cerbera, 911 and many other fantastic handling cars!! Seriously who, why?!

I mean I personally wouldn't rate the Elise first because the lack of enough power to steer on the throttle started to upset me after 20/30 mins at the wheel, but I can respect the purity/flickability and my power thirst is just my own issue.. But that order is seriously skew! The subaru doesn't ever let the driver know which end is going to slip when you reach the limit. Communication/adjustability is very poor.

It depends on the criteria of the test. The list is fairly accurate, if they are trying to establish which car's handling can be influenced, changed, or adjusted most easily simply by driver input. That is to say which cars handling is reactive against cars who's handling dictates the required inputs from the driver. Is the driver taking the dog for a walk, or is the dog dragging the driver along on it's walk.

Ok. I retract my criticism at the lists apparent foolishness and I give you great respect for not only coming up with an intelligent argument but one that, in your wording, makes me consider my own argument in a new light.

When thought of as an argument of 'does the car drive to your inputs or do you change your driving to suit the handling of the car' the cars I've owned/driven from that list do all make perfect sense. Are you a journalist, you should be.

However I would counter argue, a car that cannot make up it’s mind or has no inherent character can also feel unpredictable. A car with a likeable character that handles in a particular fashion but always does the same thing gives a driver more confidence and can create a bond which enables the driver to get more out of the car because when presented with a difficult corner they know what it is going to do in advance rather than having to react to feedback from the car as it occurs. This gives confidence to attack a corner much harder knowing the car will not let them down.

Although FWD is not to my particular tastes I think this is what draws a lot of enthusiasts/car testers to prefer it. You can jump straight into a hot hatch and attack a road on the limit because you know how it's going to behave. I just prefer the same thing in a car that will always naturally tend toward oversteer rather than understeer because I feel like I can do more with it when the limits are broken.

[RobM77]

The MGF's surprisingly high isn't it? I always found the standard car understeered unadjustably quite a bit at the limit compared to the car's main competitor, which I rate much more highly, the mk3 Toyota MR2. The MGF almost felt nose heavy to me, which is a strange concept for a mid engined car . I've only driven one though, a TF160, although my description of the handling rang true with a friend of mine who owned a mk1 k series variant (the main differnce is that the mk1 ran on hydragas Metro suspension, whereas the TF was, I believe, more conventionally sprung).

[BabyNSX]

just stumbled on this old thread about the NSX - I coveted one since they came out. Was lucky enough to own a beautiful 96 3.0 manual a few years ago. I sold it due to financial issues, however I always wished I kept it. I've owned over 30 cars, several performance ones, and its the one I miss the most.

You may recall my car - it was on 5th Gear the TV Show. They did a feature on them when they got killed off, and VBH drove one and then they gave a silver 1996 one away as their prize. That was my car P8 NSX. I remember Coys were playing hardball with the price when they bought it from me, to the point of really being cheap. Then to my annoyance the price of used NSXs went up significantly after the 5th Gear show and beyond.

To anyone who is considering buying one of these; find a good one. Buy it. Enjoy. A true classic in every sense.