RE: PH Heroes: Honda NSX

[trackdemon]

anything fast said:

For those who think this car is not that quick it came out in 1989/90, now back then it was easily quick enough to keep up with 911's etc, even now any car that can top 155/160 and hit 60 in around 5ish secs is fast, especially when mated to RWD...

i would love to see a hot hatch keep pace with an NSX round a track..at full chat most would understeer off in to the bushes...! The NSX is a classic and will just keep going up in value. I had a chance to buy a LHD silver one for £10,000 a few years ago.. should have done it! a similar cars would now fetch at least 15k...

It'd be trounced by most modern hot hatches - tyres, brakes & suspension technology have moved on quite a bit in the last 20 years. NSX would probably be more fun that any of them on track, and would definately be more fun on the road.

[trackdemon]

Mermaid said:

trackdemon said:

Talk of horsepower & ultimate 0-60 standing start times misses the point of the NSX, its about the whole driving experience not just straight line ability. When new in '91 276bhp was hardly groundbreaking so its not going to be now.... However it does seem to make the very best of what it has - .

But the NSX is about the handling and using the drivetrain, not just pure speed. A fast winding British B road suits it better - or even better, the Route Napolean...

sounds a bit like the E30 M3.

Which is one of the nicest road cars I've ever driven in the UK, despite the moderate power output. And the NSX engine is truly special, where the M3's is just very nice.

[Mermaid]

trackdemon said:

Mermaid said:

trackdemon said:

Talk of horsepower & ultimate 0-60 standing start times misses the point of the NSX, its about the whole driving experience not just straight line ability. When new in '91 276bhp was hardly groundbreaking so its not going to be now.... However it does seem to make the very best of what it has - .

But the NSX is about the handling and using the drivetrain, not just pure speed. A fast winding British B road suits it better - or even better, the Route Napolean...

sounds a bit like the E30 M3.

Which is one of the nicest road cars I've ever driven in the UK, despite the moderate power output. And the NSX engine is truly special, where the M3's is just very nice.

So which version of the NSX would be the best one to buy?

[havoc]

Dagnut said:

bit of a stretch there you can buy a 996 turbo for 25k..any number of TVR's..Nobles...E92 M3... Corvette...XKR...a number of AMGS...I could go on

I said list price, not 2nd-hand retail price. For such a 'slow' car, you still need to spend most of it's (old-money) £60-70k asking price to get anything quicker, despite the alleged rapid rise in performance of cars over the last 15-20 years.

(IMHO it's actually a rapid rise in power in recent years which has been eroded by greater weight, longer gearing and worse aero (larger frontal area offsetting any Cd improvements)


Yonex - it's a very linear n/a engine, which is why it doesn't 'feel' as quick as it is (granted it's no Speed-Six-era TVR or modern AMG).
- Weight loss - go on, where??? Seats are probably the easiest option there, but it's already all-ally chassis and bodywork!
- Flow-work - agreed. Manifolds are cast items and quite restrictive - odd given the attention to detail elsewhere, esp. the heads.
Ultimately it's not about the outright power though - the whole car just works so cohesively and so effortlessly that it's genuinely greater than the sum of it's parts. If you want something less 'sensible', more hairy-chested, then it's not for you - it's a car that appeals to the cerebral driver rather than the adrenal driver. (OK, I've just repeated half of what Steve said above...)


Couple of other points:-
- The NSX that evo magazine figured vs the evora was an early 3.0 (longer gearing) on original tyres. Not sure about the one that's in the list of stats.
- Steve - selling-up??? Why?
- On-track the 3.0 would probably be a little soft in roll. 3.2 might be better. It was SO at home on the Route Napoleon and other Alpine roads though - had an absolutely magical drive across from Col du Galibier west and then south, and had THE best drive of my life across the A87.

[baby g]

havoc said:

It was SO at home on the Route Napoleon and other Alpine roads though - had an absolutely magical drive across from Col du Galibier west and then south, and had THE best drive of my life across the A87.

Taking mine down to Lyon in a couple of weeks, unfortunately I'm just short of time to get down to Millau or the Route Napoleon. I'm sure the D996 will be a worthy substitute.

Nicely pitched article, and great to see such informed discussion. I've been meaning to sell mine for two years now (at 6'6 it's a marginal fit), can't quite bring myself to do it though.

[XB70]

I had thought about one a while back too but after looking at two of them (one auto, one manual) was underwhelmed to be honest.

I have no doubt that they are amazing when you push them a bit along B roads, the engine howling and they do look amazing but I found them cramped and a lot slower than I expected, with the need to be higher up the powerband to get anything.

When they could be had for circa £12,000 around 24-18 months ago, then a bargain but at £20,000 plus and I would have to confess I would go for something like an AMG CL55: incredibly comfortable with all the toys you can think of, very roomy and you would be surprised how quick the ABC equipped Mercs can be hustled along a B-road.

On a straight road, not much will stay with one.

For the mid £20's for a decent NSX, then I would have to pick an AMG CL65 which has got to be one of the utter bargains of the century. Yes, hideous running costs but can go head to head with exotica and stand stand a better than even chance of keeping up.

612 bhp and 737 lb-ft of torque: yes please

Relatively useless off the line (but still sub 5's), the party piece is acceleration in the mid-range which is said to be frightening.

Still, if the numbers came up, I would like to have an NSX in the collection

[NoelWatson]

GKP said:

NoelWatson said:

Evora takes 13 secoonds to get to ton - NSX is around 1.5 seconds quicker

scampbird said:

I guess a modern hot hatch could give it a run for its money,

Maybe once rolling, and at lower speeds, then yes. But off the line or past 60, I can't see it - my R26.R is way slower than my NSX.

Evo took an Evora and an NSX to Bedford's west circuit last year. The Evora was 3 seconds faster than the Honda.

In a straight line? To what speed? Or were you comparing something with 205 section tyres and corresponding brakes to something on modern wheel sizes?

[Killer2005]

One of my top 10 favourite cars ever. I'll most likely never be able to afford one, but would have one in a shot if I could

[NoelWatson]

Johnnytheboy said:

Haven't got the figures in front of me, but I'm fairly sure it's got almost the same headline figures as the Mk2 Focus RS.

Might be worth checking the figures. The NSX was 15 mph quicker at VMax than the Focus.

[NoelWatson]

trackdemon said:

Talk of horsepower & ultimate 0-60 standing start times misses the point of the NSX, its about the whole driving experience not just straight line ability. When new in '91 276bhp was hardly groundbreaking so its not going to be now.... However it does seem to make the very best of what it has - a large powerband, good aero efficiency & lowish weight seem to help it achieve decent numbers and it certainly feels plenty quick enough on the road, especially so if you use the gearbox to keep the revs beyond 5k rpm (hardly a chore with such a nice shift action). FWIW here's a list of a few different cars trap speeds as recorded @ various VMAX events (Bruntingthorpe):

Griffith 500 156mph
993 C2 158mph
Maserati 3200GT 160mph
NSX 3.0 160mph
M3 CSL 161mph
Cayman S 163mph
Z3M Coupe 163mph
996 C2 163mph
Z4M Coupe 164mph
Ferrari 355 166mph
TVR Tuscan 166mph

Pretty close to some more modern machinery really, its plenty quick enough for the public road....

But the NSX is about the handling and using the drivetrain, not just pure speed. A fast winding British B road suits it better - or even better, the Route Napolean...

Great car. Will be very sad to sell mine (which I need to in the next few months really )

We are up to 164/5 in the 3.2s!!

[NoelWatson]

Harry Monk said:

anything fast said:

i would love to see a hot hatch keep pace with an NSX round a track..at full chat most would understeer off in to the bushes...!

If you want to see that, just turn up at the Bedford Autodrome with an NSX 3.0 and a Megane R26.R. The Renault is massively quicker.

See my earlier post re tyres/brakes.

[NoelWatson]

trackdemon said:

anything fast said:

For those who think this car is not that quick it came out in 1989/90, now back then it was easily quick enough to keep up with 911's etc, even now any car that can top 155/160 and hit 60 in around 5ish secs is fast, especially when mated to RWD...

i would love to see a hot hatch keep pace with an NSX round a track..at full chat most would understeer off in to the bushes...! The NSX is a classic and will just keep going up in value. I had a chance to buy a LHD silver one for £10,000 a few years ago.. should have done it! a similar cars would now fetch at least 15k...

It'd be trounced by most modern hot hatches - tyres, brakes & suspension technology have moved on quite a bit in the last 20 years. NSX would probably be more fun that any of them on track, and would definately be more fun on the road.

Didn't a very early NSX do 8:16 round the ring?

[kambites]

havoc said:

Dagnut said:

bit of a stretch there you can buy a 996 turbo for 25k..any number of TVR's..Nobles...E92 M3... Corvette...XKR...a number of AMGS...I could go on

I said list price, not 2nd-hand retail price. For such a 'slow' car, you still need to spend most of it's (old-money) £60-70k asking price to get anything quicker, despite the alleged rapid rise in performance of cars over the last 15-20 years.

An Exige S will flatten it in just about everything except top speed (well and comfort, noise, and a variety of other intangibles) and costs substantially less than £60k. As would a Caterham.

Rather different types of car, though.

[NoelWatson]

kambites said:

An Exige S will flatten it in just about everything except top speed

What about acceleration once off the line?

[kambites]

NoelWatson said:

kambites said:

An Exige S will flatten it in just about everything except top speed

What about acceleration once off the line?

Well the Exige has a significantly higher power to weight ratio, so I'd imagine it'd be quicker. It's enough quicker to 100 and in the standing quarter mile that I'd imagine it's not losing much ground up to that point.

Obviously the NSX would take over at some point, because it has a higher top speed.

Edited by kambites on Monday 24th January 20:16

[mp3manager]

Probably been posted before but what the hell...

http://www.dtdirl.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7737...





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53c6o_cNPEo

Edited by mp3manager on Monday 24th January 20:25

[stephen300o]

NoelWatson said:

trackdemon said:

Talk of horsepower & ultimate 0-60 standing start times misses the point of the NSX, its about the whole driving experience not just straight line ability. When new in '91 276bhp was hardly groundbreaking so its not going to be now.... However it does seem to make the very best of what it has - a large powerband, good aero efficiency & lowish weight seem to help it achieve decent numbers and it certainly feels plenty quick enough on the road, especially so if you use the gearbox to keep the revs beyond 5k rpm (hardly a chore with such a nice shift action). FWIW here's a list of a few different cars trap speeds as recorded @ various VMAX events (Bruntingthorpe):

Griffith 500 156mph
993 C2 158mph
Maserati 3200GT 160mph
NSX 3.0 160mph
M3 CSL 161mph
Cayman S 163mph
Z3M Coupe 163mph
996 C2 163mph
Z4M Coupe 164mph
Ferrari 355 166mph
TVR Tuscan 166mph

Pretty close to some more modern machinery really, its plenty quick enough for the public road....

But the NSX is about the handling and using the drivetrain, not just pure speed. A fast winding British B road suits it better - or even better, the Route Napolean...

Great car. Will be very sad to sell mine (which I need to in the next few months really )

We are up to 164/5 in the 3.2s!!

My ancient 3.0 does at least 164mph
I love my one, it does so many things very well, the only down side is despite it "being a Honda" the maintenance list gets longer every year, My abs/tcs lights have come on recently so that will have to be looked at as well as an oil leak and many old water hoses.
Also the tyres need changing but the original size tyres I wanted(Yokohama AD08) are only V speed rated so may have to have some aftermarket wheels put on(possibly white Volks). It's not needed for work though so I can just put bits on here and there, it's not going anywhere soon.

[Dagnut]

havoc said:

Dagnut said:

bit of a stretch there you can buy a 996 turbo for 25k..any number of TVR's..Nobles...E92 M3... Corvette...XKR...a number of AMGS...I could go on

I said list price, not 2nd-hand retail price. For such a 'slow' car, you still need to spend most of it's (old-money) £60-70k asking price to get anything quicker, despite the alleged rapid rise in performance of cars over the last 15-20 years.

(IMHO it's actually a rapid rise in power in recent years which has been eroded by greater weight, longer gearing and worse aero (larger frontal area offsetting any Cd improvements)


Yonex - it's a very linear n/a engine, which is why it doesn't 'feel' as quick as it is (granted it's no Speed-Six-era TVR or modern AMG).
- Weight loss - go on, where??? Seats are probably the easiest option there, but it's already all-ally chassis and bodywork!
- Flow-work - agreed. Manifolds are cast items and quite restrictive - odd given the attention to detail elsewhere, esp. the heads.
Ultimately it's not about the outright power though - the whole car just works so cohesively and so effortlessly that it's genuinely greater than the sum of it's parts. If you want something less 'sensible', more hairy-chested, then it's not for you - it's a car that appeals to the cerebral driver rather than the adrenal driver. (OK, I've just repeated half of what Steve said above...)


Couple of other points:-
- The NSX that evo magazine figured vs the evora was an early 3.0 (longer gearing) on original tyres. Not sure about the one that's in the list of stats.
- Steve - selling-up??? Why?
- On-track the 3.0 would probably be a little soft in roll. 3.2 might be better. It was SO at home on the Route Napoleon and other Alpine roads though - had an absolutely magical drive across from Col du Galibier west and then south, and had THE best drive of my life across the A87.

Firstly I never said it was a slow car, I know from personal experience from 90mph it is a lot quicker than any hot hatch...secondly you didn't say list price..I know it's a quick car but a modern car of equal value(100k easy) would wipe the floor with it.
Anyway that's not what the NSX is about so in principal you're right, I would be all over one if a I could afford it.

[Johnnytheboy]

NoelWatson said:

Johnnytheboy said:

Haven't got the figures in front of me, but I'm fairly sure it's got almost the same headline figures as the Mk2 Focus RS.

Might be worth checking the figures. The NSX was 15 mph quicker at VMax than the Focus.

From Autocar (first the NSX, then the Focus):

Top speed: 159 vs. 163

0-60: 5.8 vs. 5.7

Standing 1/4: 14.2 vs. 14.2

0-100: 13.7 vs. 13.9

(thanks to my old man for slaving over his archive)

So to all intents and purposes identical.

[anonymous-user]

For Havoc;

Seats obviously, not necessarily PP's either. All ICE especially if the car still gas the troublesome Bodge amps. Next the steering wheel replaced with a simple Momo. Carpets could stay I guess to make it habitable, although I am sure a bit of soundproofing could come off. All R console mods then flock the dash. Carbon bonnet with the NA2 front which gets rid of all the light paraphernalia, whilst your at it brace the front end and chuck the AC the bin. Spare wheel out the front replace with foam, that horrible bit of pig iron bracket never looked right to me.
I wonder if a carbon GT hatch and snorkel are available, more weight gone especially if the original intake goes. Ti pipe and silencer, shorter final drive. 2 piece rotors and a set of brembo's, Kevlar lines etc behind some forged wheels, TE37 or something similar. Buy the best aftermarket suspension you can afford.

The above will set you back 15K or so if you get a few breaks. Personally I couldn't justify the cost vs another car which stock has the measure of it. Still think it would have been nice, especially after seeing how good a certain modified black
NA1 around Bedford many moons ago