RE: Pagani Huayra: Official Pics And Specs
Discussion
Before Pagani made a car to his design beliefs, passions and vision. He dreamed of a road car to take on the best from ferrari/lambo.
Now he has made a car that simply has little usability and is way overpowered and with all the associated costs to account for this tractor-trailer truck power.
Its not only not needed but its not a road car, its a track car. This has become an engineering exercise, and a an answer to a question 99% of us have never even asked. His supreme talent and passion could have been used to build a much more usable car for the road. I mean really this man is getting on in years and it takes him years and years to develop these things. Theres no soul in this latest mega smooth aero twin turbo v12 monster. sorry. Wasted talent.
To those who say if the market will bear it, then you can build it, I say your certainly right, the super exclusive market will only get better and bigger as the mega rich are able to afford more more expensive expendables; its just that these products no longer have any relevance to 99.9% of the population; they don't even have purpose for the .1% who buy them. Greatness is about purpose. This has no good purpose and is not great. Good for Poster's, screen savers, and magazines yes. j
Now he has made a car that simply has little usability and is way overpowered and with all the associated costs to account for this tractor-trailer truck power.
Its not only not needed but its not a road car, its a track car. This has become an engineering exercise, and a an answer to a question 99% of us have never even asked. His supreme talent and passion could have been used to build a much more usable car for the road. I mean really this man is getting on in years and it takes him years and years to develop these things. Theres no soul in this latest mega smooth aero twin turbo v12 monster. sorry. Wasted talent.
To those who say if the market will bear it, then you can build it, I say your certainly right, the super exclusive market will only get better and bigger as the mega rich are able to afford more more expensive expendables; its just that these products no longer have any relevance to 99.9% of the population; they don't even have purpose for the .1% who buy them. Greatness is about purpose. This has no good purpose and is not great. Good for Poster's, screen savers, and magazines yes. j
Edited by j123 on Friday 28th January 20:05
j123 said:
Before Pagani made a car to his design beliefs, passions and vision. He dreamed of a road car to take on the best from ferrari/lambo.
Now he has made a car that simply has little usability and is way overpowered and with all the associated costs to account for this tractor-trailer truck power.
Its not only not needed but its not a road car, its a track car. This has become an engineering exercise, and a an answer to a question 99% of us have never even asked. His supreme talent and passion could have been used to build a much more usable car for the road. I mean really this man is getting on in years and it takes him years and years to develop these things. Theres no soul in this latest mega smooth aero twin turbo v12 monster. sorry. Wasted talent.
To those who say if the market will bear it, then you can build it, I say your certainly right, the super exclusive market will only get better and bigger as the mega rich are able to afford more more expensive expendables; its just that these products no longer have any relevance to 99.9% of the population; they don't even have purpose for the .1% who buy them. Greatness is about purpose. This has no good purpose and is not great. Good for Poster's, screen savers, and magazines yes. j
Now he has made a car that simply has little usability and is way overpowered and with all the associated costs to account for this tractor-trailer truck power.
Its not only not needed but its not a road car, its a track car. This has become an engineering exercise, and a an answer to a question 99% of us have never even asked. His supreme talent and passion could have been used to build a much more usable car for the road. I mean really this man is getting on in years and it takes him years and years to develop these things. Theres no soul in this latest mega smooth aero twin turbo v12 monster. sorry. Wasted talent.
To those who say if the market will bear it, then you can build it, I say your certainly right, the super exclusive market will only get better and bigger as the mega rich are able to afford more more expensive expendables; its just that these products no longer have any relevance to 99.9% of the population; they don't even have purpose for the .1% who buy them. Greatness is about purpose. This has no good purpose and is not great. Good for Poster's, screen savers, and magazines yes. j
Edited by j123 on Friday 28th January 20:05
Streetrod said:
kikiturbo said:
justifying Pagani prices is not my business, but let me just make two paralels..
Any pagani is made at Veyron levels of complexity and probably contains more expensive manual labor. Also, since it is not a marketing exercise, like Bugatti, PAgani actually has to make money to operate..
In fact, a Pagani, Zonda and the new car included, is made using engineering and procedures/manufacturing practices more in common to a WRC or even some formula car manufacturer (let's say an indy car or a sports prototype), and will probably be built in similar numbers.. Check those prices before making conclusions..
Very good pointsAny pagani is made at Veyron levels of complexity and probably contains more expensive manual labor. Also, since it is not a marketing exercise, like Bugatti, PAgani actually has to make money to operate..
In fact, a Pagani, Zonda and the new car included, is made using engineering and procedures/manufacturing practices more in common to a WRC or even some formula car manufacturer (let's say an indy car or a sports prototype), and will probably be built in similar numbers.. Check those prices before making conclusions..
Also I think it is a little short sited to try to suggest the cost of making the car is so important when determining the sale price.Sure it costs a lot to make but if they sell for 800k I would take a wild guess that maybe 50-60% is build cost,instead I suspect the market performance of the Zonda will count heavily towards the pricing of this car, they will see they have no problem shifting units and that the price is good for second hand models, this indicates that the market is still very good and demand is there,I would expect they would also look at the price/demand for cars such as the Veyron and Enzo as market indicators too.
Lets not forget also that most of the production will most likely already be sold to a loyal customer base, numbers are so small we are only talking 15-20 buyers, some of multiple cars too. This massively reduces the exposure on the open market.
As mentioned with the Veyron, Pagani have to make money but also they make no other car, they have no cushion to fall back on so you would suspect pricing is key, I honestly think they could have happily thrown another 100k on and it will sell.
As someone else mentioned, if they get it wrong they close faced with such high production costs.
Just my thoughts, still don't actually like the car though
Streetrod said:
kikiturbo said:
justifying Pagani prices is not my business, but let me just make two paralels..
Any pagani is made at Veyron levels of complexity and probably contains more expensive manual labor. Also, since it is not a marketing exercise, like Bugatti, PAgani actually has to make money to operate..
In fact, a Pagani, Zonda and the new car included, is made using engineering and procedures/manufacturing practices more in common to a WRC or even some formula car manufacturer (let's say an indy car or a sports prototype), and will probably be built in similar numbers.. Check those prices before making conclusions..
Very good pointsAny pagani is made at Veyron levels of complexity and probably contains more expensive manual labor. Also, since it is not a marketing exercise, like Bugatti, PAgani actually has to make money to operate..
In fact, a Pagani, Zonda and the new car included, is made using engineering and procedures/manufacturing practices more in common to a WRC or even some formula car manufacturer (let's say an indy car or a sports prototype), and will probably be built in similar numbers.. Check those prices before making conclusions..
Im sorry gentlemen but the Pagani is not even close to the Veyron in complexity or integrity of engineering .
The Veyron is a Titan , built and designed with almost unimaginable technical and financial power . The fact that they lose
something like 4 or 5 million EU on each Veyron they sell and Pagani make money on a vehicle that retails for " merely "
850 000 GBP is testament to this .
Almost everything on the Veyron is utterly bespoke and tested to levels that small manufacturers like Pagani and that Swedish company that Im not even going to attempt to spell the name of , cannot even comprehend let alone afford or emulate .
j123 said:
Doom knows his stuff,
It won't be even close maybe 40,000
Bugatti Veyron - 60,000 Nm/degree
McLaren F1 13,500 Nm/deg
Pagani Zonda C12 S 26,300 Nm/deg
Pagani Zonda F - 27,000 Nm/degree
quoting torsional rigidity is pointless since the performance gain it gives is connected to the total mass of the car.. The heavyer the car the more torsional rigidity it needs to transfer the suspension forces back and forth.. Zonda being almost half the weight of a veyron, I say it does really well in that respect..It won't be even close maybe 40,000
Bugatti Veyron - 60,000 Nm/degree
McLaren F1 13,500 Nm/deg
Pagani Zonda C12 S 26,300 Nm/deg
Pagani Zonda F - 27,000 Nm/degree
wtdoom said:
Ok , lets not get carried away here .
Im sorry gentlemen but the Pagani is not even close to the Veyron in complexity or integrity of engineering .
The Veyron is a Titan , built and designed with almost unimaginable technical and financial power . The fact that they lose
something like 4 or 5 million EU on each Veyron they sell and Pagani make money on a vehicle that retails for " merely "
850 000 GBP is testament to this .
Almost everything on the Veyron is utterly bespoke and tested to levels that small manufacturers like Pagani and that Swedish company that Im not even going to attempt to spell the name of , cannot even comprehend let alone afford or emulate .
The fact that they loose so much money has to do with the size of the organization. VW is a huge company not adapted to developing small volume projects at reasonable cost. I agree with you on the testing bit, however, engineering complexity and the bespoke feel is on a very similar level at Pagani. Im sorry gentlemen but the Pagani is not even close to the Veyron in complexity or integrity of engineering .
The Veyron is a Titan , built and designed with almost unimaginable technical and financial power . The fact that they lose
something like 4 or 5 million EU on each Veyron they sell and Pagani make money on a vehicle that retails for " merely "
850 000 GBP is testament to this .
Almost everything on the Veyron is utterly bespoke and tested to levels that small manufacturers like Pagani and that Swedish company that Im not even going to attempt to spell the name of , cannot even comprehend let alone afford or emulate .
NorfolkInClue1 said:
As someone else mentioned, if they get it wrong they close faced with such high production costs.
Just my thoughts, still don't actually like the car though
I am not really happy with the front end, but the paintjob on the car hides it well. I saw the test mule in flesh last week and being all carbon the front end doesn't work for me... Just my thoughts, still don't actually like the car though
On the cost front... the development of the car is paid for from previous income.. so they will not go under that easily..
j123 said:
"Ugly lazy design."
For "ugly lazy" people who spend most of their time directing slaves to help them keep their billions together. gotta love those "factories" in china where millions of chinese toil 18 hours a day 7 days a week making cents out of a dollar an hour; just so some jackask can drive one of these "ugly Lazy" wastes and feel good about himself. Should be a perfect match.
Wait I hear the Ph'ers coming now...business men can do what ever they like. Ok, get back to me in 7 to 10 years if you can, thanks, j
Yay! A proper PH nutjob. Hope you've got your tinfoil hat on matey, they are coming.......For "ugly lazy" people who spend most of their time directing slaves to help them keep their billions together. gotta love those "factories" in china where millions of chinese toil 18 hours a day 7 days a week making cents out of a dollar an hour; just so some jackask can drive one of these "ugly Lazy" wastes and feel good about himself. Should be a perfect match.
Wait I hear the Ph'ers coming now...business men can do what ever they like. Ok, get back to me in 7 to 10 years if you can, thanks, j
kikiturbo said:
The fact that they loose so much money has to do with the size of the organization. VW is a huge company not adapted to developing small volume projects at reasonable cost. I agree with you on the testing bit, however, engineering complexity and the bespoke feel is on a very similar level at Pagani.
VW got their best engineers from the group and basically developed the Veyron . There were so many engineering obstacles to overcome and barriers to break down etc etc .That car ( even though I dont particularly like it ) rewrote the rule book .
Its a little unfair to say they lose money on them because they are a big company , no ?
i agree with the bespoke " FEEL " because it is just that .
But for engineering complexity and integrity , I dont agree . Not even close . Also please remember the majority of the components used are not even made by Pagani let alone engineered by them .
Its a special car but cant be compared it to the mighty Veyron .
"quoting torsional rigidity is pointless since the performance gain it gives is connected to the total mass of the car.. The heavyer the car the more torsional rigidity it needs to transfer the suspension forces back and forth.. Zonda being almost half the weight of a veyron, I say it does really well in that respect.."
Off point. VW have made a far far more rigid structure than Pag no matter what car you put it into. The Buggati effort is far more challenging to pull off and sophisticated in design, and if Pagani had access to it, would quite quickly realize that he would take their carbon tech over his anyday.
Your off topic point about rigidity as it relates to overall car weight and rolling down the road, is full of variables that you nor I (unless your a structural engineer or study with one) cannot get to grips with here. The only thing I'll say is that engineers I have spoken with say that a super rigid heavier car does not lose that much of its rigidity due to its weight; indeed just driving on most regular roads the rigidity is not challenging to a chassis whose limits are so high to begin.
Again I truly believe that all this effort over the years to develop this "wind" has created a car racing car for the track, and a heavy and huge one at that, and that to me is sad- too bad the PH crowd disapproves. Go get red in the face at me. j
Off point. VW have made a far far more rigid structure than Pag no matter what car you put it into. The Buggati effort is far more challenging to pull off and sophisticated in design, and if Pagani had access to it, would quite quickly realize that he would take their carbon tech over his anyday.
Your off topic point about rigidity as it relates to overall car weight and rolling down the road, is full of variables that you nor I (unless your a structural engineer or study with one) cannot get to grips with here. The only thing I'll say is that engineers I have spoken with say that a super rigid heavier car does not lose that much of its rigidity due to its weight; indeed just driving on most regular roads the rigidity is not challenging to a chassis whose limits are so high to begin.
Again I truly believe that all this effort over the years to develop this "wind" has created a car racing car for the track, and a heavy and huge one at that, and that to me is sad- too bad the PH crowd disapproves. Go get red in the face at me. j
kikiturbo said:
NorfolkInClue1 said:
As someone else mentioned, if they get it wrong they close faced with such high production costs.
Just my thoughts, still don't actually like the car though
I am not really happy with the front end, but the paintjob on the car hides it well. I saw the test mule in flesh last week and being all carbon the front end doesn't work for me... Just my thoughts, still don't actually like the car though
On the cost front... the development of the car is paid for from previous income.. so they will not go under that easily..
The flipside to courting multi multi millionares is that they have the money to be fickle, make a dog of a car and there are actually alot of small scale supercar makers out there just waiting to jump in your grave, that's what I meant by getting it wrong.
Good point about the paint though, maybe some brighter colours will improve it??
Just found one for sale,
http://www.jameslist.com/advert/230661/for-sale-pa...
I'll leave you to decide weather to leave your money with a Russian company that claims to be able to magic up another one from Pagani over and above the orderlist, or if you don't fancy that maybe take the next generation Enzo, yours for a deposit of 150 euros according to the ad if you flick around the listings this company has on Jameslist, interesting couple of Lambo's yet to be made too.
I'm ringing them now credit card in hand, oh and my passport and bank account details
http://www.jameslist.com/advert/230661/for-sale-pa...
I'll leave you to decide weather to leave your money with a Russian company that claims to be able to magic up another one from Pagani over and above the orderlist, or if you don't fancy that maybe take the next generation Enzo, yours for a deposit of 150 euros according to the ad if you flick around the listings this company has on Jameslist, interesting couple of Lambo's yet to be made too.
I'm ringing them now credit card in hand, oh and my passport and bank account details
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 29th January 21:08
j123 said:
Your off topic point about rigidity as it relates to overall car weight and rolling down the road, is full of variables that you nor I (unless your a structural engineer or study with one) cannot get to grips with here. The only thing I'll say is that engineers I have spoken with say that a super rigid heavier car does not lose that much of its rigidity due to its weight; indeed just driving on most regular roads the rigidity is not challenging to a chassis whose limits are so high to begin.
I happen to understand the torsional rigidity issue, and you may check with other structural engineers, but lighter cars do not have to have as much torsional rigidity as heavier ones.. it all relates to the vehicle mass... j123 said:
these products no longer have any relevance to 99.9% of the population; they don't even have purpose for the .1% who buy them.
This is nothing new - supercars have always been all but irrelevant to the real world. Edited by j123 on Friday 28th January 20:05
And your stats are off: 0.1% of a global population of 6.8bn(ish) is roughly 68,000. Paganai make a handfull of cars each year so are looking at the 0.0001.
Why should their cars be relevant to anyone but their target market?
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff