RE: Driven: Autofarm Porsche 911
Discussion
having lived with a genuine '71 2.2s (garaged, rebuilt engine, regular use) I have to say I am not with the purist brigade. Everytime I went out in it I'd hear a new squeak, rattle or whatever and shudder at the potential cost and if it was something minor or far more sinister. The alternator was a b**tard and went through 2 of 'em in 4 years....maybe I was just unlucky. I would go for one of these autofarm jobs anyday. Having said that, the 2.2s was the sweetest engined of the lot and at high revs it was as beautiful a sound as you'll ever hear, and 180bhp in something that light was plenty performance enough. Autofarm have a great rep and are not to be confused with a lot of the 'restorers/rebuilders' out there. In summary, if you love proper air cooled 911's and you don't care what purists think (and why should you) you can't do much better. The depreciation on one of these compared to a modern one is incomparable...well looked after this will still be worth similar money in 5 years whereas a modern one? No chance.....Plus you'll learn how to really control a car without the needs for abs, psm and whatever other electronic safety gizmos they throw at Porsches these days.
The 3.2 rust-resistant??? Thanks for that, I needed a laugh.
I drove a 1985 model from '89 to '95. At 10 years of age the body was tissue paper in places, which were inevitably very hard to get to and expensive to fix properly. These cars are now approaching 30 years old. If you dream of owning one then best of luck, they're great, but personally I wouldn't touch one now unless it had had a very recent and thorough strip-down and rebuild. There are lots of shiny ones out there and every time I see one I wince a little thinking about what could be lurking underneath....
From memory mine had an issue with the front wings rotting from the underside out, thanks to some rotten underseal, which couldn't be seen without removing the oil cooler pipes. Also there is a massive mud trap inside the rear wings, which ultimately resulted in a huge rust problem on the division between the engine and cabin. Needless to say, none of this was covered by the 10 year warranty and at 10 years old the car needed major surgery to put it right.
Happy memories though!
I drove a 1985 model from '89 to '95. At 10 years of age the body was tissue paper in places, which were inevitably very hard to get to and expensive to fix properly. These cars are now approaching 30 years old. If you dream of owning one then best of luck, they're great, but personally I wouldn't touch one now unless it had had a very recent and thorough strip-down and rebuild. There are lots of shiny ones out there and every time I see one I wince a little thinking about what could be lurking underneath....
From memory mine had an issue with the front wings rotting from the underside out, thanks to some rotten underseal, which couldn't be seen without removing the oil cooler pipes. Also there is a massive mud trap inside the rear wings, which ultimately resulted in a huge rust problem on the division between the engine and cabin. Needless to say, none of this was covered by the 10 year warranty and at 10 years old the car needed major surgery to put it right.
Happy memories though!
I really like this. Unless I win the lottery I will never have the opportunity to buy one. But I would love a classic looking car that could be used as a daily driver. The Bristol Series 6 and the Mercedes 300SL by Gullwing Gmbh are on my dream garage list as well as the PS Porsche. There is just something about this type of car I like. Older looks with modern mechanicals. There was a topic to do with this in the not to distant past. A car I have thought about but never seen produced is a Mercedes R107 SL with modern AMG V8 mechanicals.
Re the speedo query - Porsche did that on the STs, and many hot-rod 91 owners prefer to do that. You have the limit right in your field of vision. Unnecessary, sure, but a nice retro touch.
Rust - yes all cars rust, 3.2 as well; but there's galvanising and galvanising and 3.2s was when Porsche started to galvanise properly. And a well sorted paint / body job by someone like Sportwagen will be to a higher standard than factory, easily.
964 engine is a better basis for an engine build than a 993 engine; ask any Porsche engine builder who knows what he’s doing as opposed to someone who just reads forums.
As for the MR2 / Ferrari comment, not relevant. That's a cheap piece of crap trying to look like a real Fezza. That’s a very slow car trying to look fast. The whole point of a hotrod 911 is a quick or very quick car trying to look old n slow … completely different mindset.
You don't compare these oldies (original or hotrodded) to a 997. The 997 is a brilliant modern car. It feels secure. And there's a the rub. On a sunny weekend morning, it doesn't feel as involving at normal speeds.
A well-done backdated 911 is a money pit; and 60k doesn't go very far if you want to do it right. Go do your homework about what’s involved! Sure, you can get a cheap backdating kit for a few grand, good enough if you don’t stand too close; but if you’re not going to do it right, just leave it alone. I could have bought a GT3 or GT2 but choose not to and blew the budget on a mongrel. Why?
1. I hate the show-off image that goes with new cars of any kind. My old car looks like it came off ebay for 10k. I’m happy with that lack of attention; and the fun of wasting modern machinery in something that looks like an old Sunday polisher is priceless. Especially wasting Caymans …
2. The noise. Difficult to get right. I had tried a couple of systems before I hit on one that sounded good as opposed to just loud. It’s a myth that 993s and 3.2s etc sound better than Gen 1 997s; but a bored out 993 with all the right quality bits sounds like a more muscly version of a 2.7RS. OK, I’m biased, but it’s gorgeous. No modern 911 can compete; other than a GT3 which admittedly is super as well.
3. New cars, even new 911s, are not much use as a weekend blaster. Too stable; too easy to drive. The appeal of my old hotrod is that it’s over-engined. For good measure, I run 15” x 6”s all round. With a rally suspension, it’s comfortable yet precise; it slides about easily when you want it to; but isn’t twitchy. 3.2s and 993s are too stable for me – grip, grip and then bang, gone. My mongrel never feels entirely safe; and that’s precisely the appeal, like downhill skiing. You have to concentrate. Every input has a reaction. It’s intense.
4. The torque / power. Bore a 993 engine out to 3.8 with quality bits and you’ll out pull a gen 1 997 easy. Caymans, Boxsters, hot hatches, ha ha. You’ll also rev well past 7k all day long. Old original cars look great, but they’re too slow and I hate driving them as I always start obsessing about originality and worrying about rust.
Sum up, a mongrel hot rod is under-stated where a 997 is showy; it sounds rude where a 3.2 or 993 or 997 sound civilised; it revs like mad (with Motec, comp throttle, lightened flywheel etc) better than any 997 or 80s 911; it has the slam-you-down-the-road torque that you don’t get in any older car – and it looks f***** ace.
5. Tailor made. I love sourcing bits and having something unique.
Of course, it’s not original, and I’d lose a packet if I ever sold it. But after 4 happy years getting the car the way I want it, the only way I’d sell is at gunpoint.
Rust - yes all cars rust, 3.2 as well; but there's galvanising and galvanising and 3.2s was when Porsche started to galvanise properly. And a well sorted paint / body job by someone like Sportwagen will be to a higher standard than factory, easily.
964 engine is a better basis for an engine build than a 993 engine; ask any Porsche engine builder who knows what he’s doing as opposed to someone who just reads forums.
As for the MR2 / Ferrari comment, not relevant. That's a cheap piece of crap trying to look like a real Fezza. That’s a very slow car trying to look fast. The whole point of a hotrod 911 is a quick or very quick car trying to look old n slow … completely different mindset.
You don't compare these oldies (original or hotrodded) to a 997. The 997 is a brilliant modern car. It feels secure. And there's a the rub. On a sunny weekend morning, it doesn't feel as involving at normal speeds.
A well-done backdated 911 is a money pit; and 60k doesn't go very far if you want to do it right. Go do your homework about what’s involved! Sure, you can get a cheap backdating kit for a few grand, good enough if you don’t stand too close; but if you’re not going to do it right, just leave it alone. I could have bought a GT3 or GT2 but choose not to and blew the budget on a mongrel. Why?
1. I hate the show-off image that goes with new cars of any kind. My old car looks like it came off ebay for 10k. I’m happy with that lack of attention; and the fun of wasting modern machinery in something that looks like an old Sunday polisher is priceless. Especially wasting Caymans …
2. The noise. Difficult to get right. I had tried a couple of systems before I hit on one that sounded good as opposed to just loud. It’s a myth that 993s and 3.2s etc sound better than Gen 1 997s; but a bored out 993 with all the right quality bits sounds like a more muscly version of a 2.7RS. OK, I’m biased, but it’s gorgeous. No modern 911 can compete; other than a GT3 which admittedly is super as well.
3. New cars, even new 911s, are not much use as a weekend blaster. Too stable; too easy to drive. The appeal of my old hotrod is that it’s over-engined. For good measure, I run 15” x 6”s all round. With a rally suspension, it’s comfortable yet precise; it slides about easily when you want it to; but isn’t twitchy. 3.2s and 993s are too stable for me – grip, grip and then bang, gone. My mongrel never feels entirely safe; and that’s precisely the appeal, like downhill skiing. You have to concentrate. Every input has a reaction. It’s intense.
4. The torque / power. Bore a 993 engine out to 3.8 with quality bits and you’ll out pull a gen 1 997 easy. Caymans, Boxsters, hot hatches, ha ha. You’ll also rev well past 7k all day long. Old original cars look great, but they’re too slow and I hate driving them as I always start obsessing about originality and worrying about rust.
Sum up, a mongrel hot rod is under-stated where a 997 is showy; it sounds rude where a 3.2 or 993 or 997 sound civilised; it revs like mad (with Motec, comp throttle, lightened flywheel etc) better than any 997 or 80s 911; it has the slam-you-down-the-road torque that you don’t get in any older car – and it looks f***** ace.
5. Tailor made. I love sourcing bits and having something unique.
Of course, it’s not original, and I’d lose a packet if I ever sold it. But after 4 happy years getting the car the way I want it, the only way I’d sell is at gunpoint.
From article:
"We started with three criteria," says R Gruppe's other cofounder, former Porsche (and current Ford) designer Freeman Thomas. "The first ingredient was sports purpose -- cars that can be driven on the track on weekends and on the street during the week. Second was the SoCal hot-rod thing -- if it looks right, it is right. The third element was the Steve McQueen attitude -- great taste and the cool factor. We're not about screaming. There's a discretion that characterizes an R Gruppe car. It's about delivering more than it promises."
The group's success speaks to the strength of the hot-rodding impulse in the Porsche community, and it's something that's not found, by and large, among devotees of any other high-end marque.
Although the R Gruppe mission sounds harmless enough, the organization has become a lightning rod for haters from all four corners of the car world. To the august Porsche Club of America, R Gruppe is populated by a bunch of yahoos with no respect for tradition. To the hard-core racers who dominate the Porsche Owners Club, R Gruppe is full of poseurs who'd rather look fast than go fast. To early 911 aficionados who haven't been invited to join the club -- membership is limited to about 300, and members are booted if they don't continue to measure up to unspecified standards -- R Gruppe is a gated community reserved for arrogant snobs. To high-dollar collectors, R Gruppe provides a prescription for replicars and fakey-doos that cost more to build than they're worth on the open market.
Operating on the assumption that any group that's managed to offend so many diverse constituencies must be doing something right …
Of course, what’s not widely known is that, oiginally, Porsche itself INTENDED you to f*** around modding the cars; and even published two factory handbooks for owners who wanted to modify their cars:
“Virtually from the moment it debuted in 1963, the 911 was rallied and raced not only by the factory but also by customers. In 1967, Porsche created a factory racer dubbed the 911R, but only about twenty were built. So for privateers who couldn't get their hands on one, Porsche published manuals that detailed exactly how they could modify their cars to maximize performance. Porsche titled the books, "Information regarding Porsche vehicles used for sports purpose." In America, of course, we call this hot-rodding.”
See: http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/1008_ba...
"We started with three criteria," says R Gruppe's other cofounder, former Porsche (and current Ford) designer Freeman Thomas. "The first ingredient was sports purpose -- cars that can be driven on the track on weekends and on the street during the week. Second was the SoCal hot-rod thing -- if it looks right, it is right. The third element was the Steve McQueen attitude -- great taste and the cool factor. We're not about screaming. There's a discretion that characterizes an R Gruppe car. It's about delivering more than it promises."
The group's success speaks to the strength of the hot-rodding impulse in the Porsche community, and it's something that's not found, by and large, among devotees of any other high-end marque.
Although the R Gruppe mission sounds harmless enough, the organization has become a lightning rod for haters from all four corners of the car world. To the august Porsche Club of America, R Gruppe is populated by a bunch of yahoos with no respect for tradition. To the hard-core racers who dominate the Porsche Owners Club, R Gruppe is full of poseurs who'd rather look fast than go fast. To early 911 aficionados who haven't been invited to join the club -- membership is limited to about 300, and members are booted if they don't continue to measure up to unspecified standards -- R Gruppe is a gated community reserved for arrogant snobs. To high-dollar collectors, R Gruppe provides a prescription for replicars and fakey-doos that cost more to build than they're worth on the open market.
Operating on the assumption that any group that's managed to offend so many diverse constituencies must be doing something right …
Of course, what’s not widely known is that, oiginally, Porsche itself INTENDED you to f*** around modding the cars; and even published two factory handbooks for owners who wanted to modify their cars:
“Virtually from the moment it debuted in 1963, the 911 was rallied and raced not only by the factory but also by customers. In 1967, Porsche created a factory racer dubbed the 911R, but only about twenty were built. So for privateers who couldn't get their hands on one, Porsche published manuals that detailed exactly how they could modify their cars to maximize performance. Porsche titled the books, "Information regarding Porsche vehicles used for sports purpose." In America, of course, we call this hot-rodding.”
See: http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/1008_ba...
tommy1973s said:
As for the MR2 / Ferrari comment, not relevant. That's a cheap piece of crap trying to look like a real Fezza. That’s a very slow car trying to look fast. The whole point of a hotrod 911 is a quick or very quick car trying to look old n slow … completely different mindset.
Errr that was a joke. 
dom9 said:
Beautiful car and always top-notch workmanship from the guys at Autofarm!
I would have one of those in a flash, as a toy, were I in the market for another toy (my current one is in their storage facility).
It may seem a lot of money, but when you see the effort and time these guys put in and the quality of the finished product, it really does represent great value.
I also see that Mikey still has the leather sports seats out of my 996 up on the racking!
Cheers Dom, its allways great to have someone who appreciates the time and effort that makes AF Project cars something special. I would have one of those in a flash, as a toy, were I in the market for another toy (my current one is in their storage facility).
It may seem a lot of money, but when you see the effort and time these guys put in and the quality of the finished product, it really does represent great value.
I also see that Mikey still has the leather sports seats out of my 996 up on the racking!
AHHH you see there has been a wee bit of time elapsed since that photo was taken, the seats have now been convereted to Office chairs. Im current sat on mine and yours sold on ebay for 500 Quid
ThreesixtyM said:
The 3.2 rust-resistant??? Thanks for that, I needed a laugh.
I drove a 1985 model from '89 to '95. At 10 years of age the body was tissue paper in places, which were inevitably very hard to get to and expensive to fix properly. These cars are now approaching 30 years old. If you dream of owning one then best of luck, they're great, but personally I wouldn't touch one now unless it had had a very recent and thorough strip-down and rebuild. There are lots of shiny ones out there and every time I see one I wince a little thinking about what could be lurking underneath....
From memory mine had an issue with the front wings rotting from the underside out, thanks to some rotten underseal, which couldn't be seen without removing the oil cooler pipes. Also there is a massive mud trap inside the rear wings, which ultimately resulted in a huge rust problem on the division between the engine and cabin. Needless to say, none of this was covered by the 10 year warranty and at 10 years old the car needed major surgery to put it right.
Happy memories though!
Totally agree they are old and yes they do have rust but to what degree is the question.I drove a 1985 model from '89 to '95. At 10 years of age the body was tissue paper in places, which were inevitably very hard to get to and expensive to fix properly. These cars are now approaching 30 years old. If you dream of owning one then best of luck, they're great, but personally I wouldn't touch one now unless it had had a very recent and thorough strip-down and rebuild. There are lots of shiny ones out there and every time I see one I wince a little thinking about what could be lurking underneath....
From memory mine had an issue with the front wings rotting from the underside out, thanks to some rotten underseal, which couldn't be seen without removing the oil cooler pipes. Also there is a massive mud trap inside the rear wings, which ultimately resulted in a huge rust problem on the division between the engine and cabin. Needless to say, none of this was covered by the 10 year warranty and at 10 years old the car needed major surgery to put it right.
Happy memories though!
Each car is hand picked and normally takes 10 cars to find a good one. This particular one had very little corrosion, but we know what were looking at and replaced any panel or area had a sniff of corrosion and sealed up correctly not allowing mud to get trapped etc. As previously stated its not a cheap project but thats because so much is looked at and rectified. These cars MUST stand through the test of time and be as great to drive and own now as they will be in years to come.
For any one out there considering any type of project like this beit with Autofarm, anyone else or even in your garage the key is picking the best donor vehicle possible that also meets you spec.
I don't really agree with it. Yes it's superbly built, but what exactly is it?
Old slim bumper 911's are funny old things, from the carburettor 2 litre with 130 odd bhp to the hairy old 2.4S. They have their own distinctive feel plus the metallic wail which the later 964 engine doesn't give. Clonky 915 gearbox, slightly dangerous handling and all the things that make it what it is - an old car. That's what old cars are about - they're slightly crap compared to new ones but the driving experience is unique. An original 2.4E or S with some decent tyres and dampers is still a fast old thing. So this one looks like an old 911 but it doesn't have the real ingrained character. So what's the point?
The other thing is......what was wrong with the original SC/Carrera? In the right colour (Guards red. black, Zermatt silver or GP White with the Fuchs wheels and the tea tray/whale tail spoiler, Pasha chessboard trim etc, they were very much a product of their era. To me, an interesting 911 is a truly rare one - something Geeky like a 2.7 Targa in a metallic brown with the ATS wheels. It's a nice old Porsche that isn't pretending to be anything. It is what it is.
Old slim bumper 911's are funny old things, from the carburettor 2 litre with 130 odd bhp to the hairy old 2.4S. They have their own distinctive feel plus the metallic wail which the later 964 engine doesn't give. Clonky 915 gearbox, slightly dangerous handling and all the things that make it what it is - an old car. That's what old cars are about - they're slightly crap compared to new ones but the driving experience is unique. An original 2.4E or S with some decent tyres and dampers is still a fast old thing. So this one looks like an old 911 but it doesn't have the real ingrained character. So what's the point?
The other thing is......what was wrong with the original SC/Carrera? In the right colour (Guards red. black, Zermatt silver or GP White with the Fuchs wheels and the tea tray/whale tail spoiler, Pasha chessboard trim etc, they were very much a product of their era. To me, an interesting 911 is a truly rare one - something Geeky like a 2.7 Targa in a metallic brown with the ATS wheels. It's a nice old Porsche that isn't pretending to be anything. It is what it is.
Looks adorable but identical to the guys based over in Suffolk. Wonder what their prices would be like. Was very tempted when I saw them at MPH last year but ended up going for an original. Can't remember the other guys were called just now. Had a long chat with them and the guy used to race Porsche and Marcos.
jake15919 said:
I really want one of these.
Judging by the interior though if it follows Porsche's 'less is more' pricing it is well out of my price range.
From memory the prices started around £75K but the range was very broad. Think the other guys were called something like PS Porsche or similar. Would be interested to see the two cars side by side.Judging by the interior though if it follows Porsche's 'less is more' pricing it is well out of my price range.
just a couple of points\; the pirelli p6000 are a fair choice, the original fitment on UK 911 2.2S was the michelin XWX in 185/70VR15 which can be bought, my spare is unused after 40years and as hard as concrete but i use pirelli for regular driving.
the recreations are needed as they only made the 2.2S for two years and only 77 were RHD into the UK, how many survive? i have one of them, a really great drivers car, makes the 996 carrera feel like a gucchi handbag (not a compliment).
roger
the recreations are needed as they only made the 2.2S for two years and only 77 were RHD into the UK, how many survive? i have one of them, a really great drivers car, makes the 996 carrera feel like a gucchi handbag (not a compliment).
roger
another point in favour of newer guts with older looks, Bosch don't make the original fuelpump for the mechanical injected cars any more, i tracked down a NOS (NEW OLD STOCK) in Germany and they wanted 1000 euros for onehttp://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/imgs/7.gif. Door pockets cost 250 each, etc. etc.
enjoy them all,newer or older.
roger
enjoy them all,newer or older.
roger
rogerhudson said:
another point in favour of newer guts with older looks, Bosch don't make the original fuelpump for the mechanical injected cars any more, i tracked down a NOS (NEW OLD STOCK) in Germany and they wanted 1000 euros for onehttp://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/imgs/7.gif. Door pockets cost 250 each, etc. etc.
enjoy them all,newer or older.
roger
http://www.porsche.com/uk/accessoriesandservice/cl...enjoy them all,newer or older.
roger
don't know what the actually quality is like though
Edited by hot66 on Friday 11th February 09:21
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