RE: Driven: McLaren MP4-12C
Discussion
I wouldn't get too far ahead of yourselves. Remember that this is a British car being reviewed by the patriotic British press who continuosly sing the praises of any new British car and this is no different. There is nothing wrong with this but it just needs to be kept in perspective. I think that any review of this car needs to be discounted, or better still, wait for a review from the foreign motoring press who have no agenda to pump up a British manufacturer.
It's a great car no doubt but I think you are all getting a bit over excited, I really doubt that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread that it's being made out to be
It's a great car no doubt but I think you are all getting a bit over excited, I really doubt that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread that it's being made out to be
If the author uses the word Clinical again I'm going to stab him in the hand with a fork.As far as I can tell he had at least five incorrect usages of the term with regard to motoring reviews.
Couldn't PH have got someone who can write to do the review? Someone who actually works for PH perhaps? (there is a veiled compliment in there somewhere!)
I have always taken clinical to mean very good but anodyne and remote... antiseptic if you will.
Couldn't PH have got someone who can write to do the review? Someone who actually works for PH perhaps? (there is a veiled compliment in there somewhere!)
I have always taken clinical to mean very good but anodyne and remote... antiseptic if you will.
Harry Monk said:
B10 said:
Interesting article. However can we have less of the Clarksonesque cheap semi-inaccurate jibes "Which is important, what with the British car industry having abandoned its greatness at around about the same time that Steven Spielberg decided to make a film about a very big fish."
There always has to be some neqativeness about anything home grown, even in this tangential way.
If it were an German car and we were on a German website we would be saying it is much better than the Ferrari. So come on lets be a bit more positive and look at the future instead of always mentioning the past!
Well, Britain has turned out some convincing rivals to the Porsche 911, Volkswagen Golf, Audi R8, Audi TT, Porsche Cayman, Mercedes SLS, Mercedes SL, BMW M3 and BMW M5 over the past ten years hasn't it?There always has to be some neqativeness about anything home grown, even in this tangential way.
If it were an German car and we were on a German website we would be saying it is much better than the Ferrari. So come on lets be a bit more positive and look at the future instead of always mentioning the past!
Oh no. It hasn't.
You might appreciate this tone better: you may not be aware of companies like Lotus, Aston-Martin, Jaguar etc.
anniesdad said:
dberkmen said:
george h said:
dberkmen said:
Hmmm very nice, but a TurboS is half a second quicker to 100kmh on 'std tyres', and I suspect probably as quick in day to day driving....
Track days, well that's a different matter, and not as important to the average punter... Imo of course. ;-)
I wasn't aware a 911 turbo would do 0-62 in 2.6 seconds....Track days, well that's a different matter, and not as important to the average punter... Imo of course. ;-)
Do they have more than one occupant/light fuel loads?
I think it's because they seem to always use the drag strip, and the timing does not start till the wheels pass the second line or the like...
octagon8 said:
I wouldn't get too far ahead of yourselves. Remember that this is a British car being reviewed by the patriotic British press who continuosly sing the praises of any new British car and this is no different. There is nothing wrong with this but it just needs to be kept in perspective. I think that any review of this car needs to be discounted, or better still, wait for a review from the foreign motoring press who have no agenda to pump up a British manufacturer.
It's a great car no doubt but I think you are all getting a bit over excited, I really doubt that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread that it's being made out to be
Of the publications I read, I read very little if anything in the way of bias to British product. Perversely it is probably the exact opposite that applies. I've no interest in reading foreign journalists opinion of any car whether they be British or not. We have excellent journalists much more close to home. It's a great car no doubt but I think you are all getting a bit over excited, I really doubt that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread that it's being made out to be
The MP4-12C is something we Brits, whether we be journalists or not, should rightly be very proud.
Scuffers said:
from what I remember, Car&Driver don't actually do standing starts, they time from 'roll out' (whatever that's supposed to mean).
I think it's because they seem to always use the drag strip, and the timing does not start till the wheels pass the second line or the like...
Yep, rollout timing starts after the first 1ft (30cm) or 2ft in some cases (60cm)I think it's because they seem to always use the drag strip, and the timing does not start till the wheels pass the second line or the like...
It's used in many timings simply because it's then comparitive to the drag strip as you say, but in truth it's then often about 0.4s out for actual 0-60mph times etc (30cm most common rollout)
Ie, if the vBox or G-tech, or drag timing gear, say 0-60mph in 3.7s, and the devices were all set up to use rollout so numbers were comparitive with the dragstrip slips, then they should all be fairly similar in final reading. However, the *actual* 0-60mph time would be maybe 4.1s... not the 3.7s given.
Rollout shouldn't be used at all except in 1/4m times used for comparing at a dragstrip yourself. Unfortunately, very few if any magazines/testers say if they are used or not.
'Test' data from most magazines isn't reliable imo because they never detail the test conditions properly.
Ie, R&T weigh cars and give the difference vs manufacturer weight, but then they don't tell you how heavy their driver of the day is. Not so useful when the Euro DIN driver is 68kg (iirc), while a fat tester might be 100kg!!!
Dave
One of the big drivers in auto style transmissions is our old friend emissions. To achieve the declared emissions the car has to be driven at set speeds in set gears if a manual or in a manual mode. However in auto mode you are allowed to change gears at whatever speed you want to achieve the lowest emmisions as it is considered not driver dependent. If it is an auto with a manual mode you are allowed a 50/50 split. The advantages of the auto route is therefore lower emissions than a manual resulting in less gas guzzler tax in the USA and lowering you overall emissions to meet EU targets. Add this to the fact that the demand for manuals is only about 10% to 20% for manufacturers who do offer one then there is not much incentive to offer manuals. The day of the manual supercar is over I am afraid to say.
Personaly I do not think the DSG is the way to go and it makes a car a bit clinical and playstation. This was one of the reasons I was a bit disapointed when I had a test drive in the 458. The F1 type shift still leaves some driver involvement. I would rather loose 0.2 seconds of performance for a bit of driver involvement.
Personaly I do not think the DSG is the way to go and it makes a car a bit clinical and playstation. This was one of the reasons I was a bit disapointed when I had a test drive in the 458. The F1 type shift still leaves some driver involvement. I would rather loose 0.2 seconds of performance for a bit of driver involvement.
Scuffers said:
numbers!
they might be bespoke, but if your plan is to make 1,500PA, that's some income (at £170k a pop)
Not quite the same economics as pushing out £15K astra's or the like...
they might be bespoke, but if your plan is to make 1,500PA, that's some income (at £170k a pop)
Not quite the same economics as pushing out £15K astra's or the like...
1,500 cars a year is 6 cars a week. I'd be interested to see how much money was spent on investment and development and how many people will be working on each car.
The only hurdle I can see on the horizon is Lamborghini; if their next Murcielago is anything to go by then McLaren might regret their beige styling.
martisracing said:
One of the big drivers in auto style transmissions is our old friend emissions. To achieve the declared emissions the car has to be driven at set speeds in set gears if a manual or in a manual mode. However in auto mode you are allowed to change gears at whatever speed you want to achieve the lowest emmisions as it is considered not driver dependent. If it is an auto with a manual mode you are allowed a 50/50 split. The advantages of the auto route is therefore lower emissions than a manual resulting in less gas guzzler tax in the USA and lowering you overall emissions to meet EU targets. Add this to the fact that the demand for manuals is only about 10% to 20% for manufacturers who do offer one then there is not much incentive to offer manuals. The day of the manual supercar is over I am afraid to say.
Personaly I do not think the DSG is the way to go and it makes a car a bit clinical and playstation. This was one of the reasons I was a bit disapointed when I had a test drive in the 458. The F1 type shift still leaves some driver involvement. I would rather loose 0.2 seconds of performance for a bit of driver involvement.
I guess they can add some 'jerk' to the DSG, but then they may as well use a lighter, cheaper, smaller, cheaper to service (?), robotised manual instead Personaly I do not think the DSG is the way to go and it makes a car a bit clinical and playstation. This was one of the reasons I was a bit disapointed when I had a test drive in the 458. The F1 type shift still leaves some driver involvement. I would rather loose 0.2 seconds of performance for a bit of driver involvement.
The logic is clear as you say, autos can run a preferntial gear choice on emissions tests. Flawed testing, and now manufacturers are taking big advantage of that, I think the rules may well be changed... 911 C2 PDK under 225g/km...
It's almost a joke really, only possible with a stupid test criteria that is now having advantage taken of it!
I think supercars will have manual gearboxes again. I think DSG will die a death. It's less involving than a manual. It's more expensive than any other gearbox. It's more complicated than any other gearbox. It's heavier than other types of gearbox. It's not as nice an auto as a good torque converter auto.
It's place in a supercar seems totally odd to me. Give me a proper robot manual/sequential, or a proper auto, or a proper manual.
A gearbox that tries to do all three, ends up being only average at all three, rather than excellent at being just one... which is exactly what a *super* car needs imo!
Enzo, Carrera GT, SLR, all have one of the three main gearboxes ONLY and all make excellent use of them... they all add character in each implementation. No other options, and each one is hugely desireable.
I can't say the same for any DSG only car...
Dave
daveco said:
1,500 cars a year is 6 cars a week. I'd be interested to see how much money was spent on investment and development and how many people will be working on each car.
The only hurdle I can see on the horizon is Lamborghini; if their next Murcielago is anything to go by then McLaren might regret their beige styling.
Remember, this is the mid-range car, the Murcielago will be up against the next one.... (although it's still got to better this one)
daveco said:
The only hurdle I can see on the horizon is Lamborghini; if their next Murcielago is anything to go by then McLaren might regret their beige styling.
Supercars and Hypercars.
The MP4-12C is a supercar. The next one from McLaren will be a Hypercar, a successor to the F1.
The one after that is the really interesting one, it's the sportscar that is purported to be well under 100K.
Harry Monk said:
B10 said:
Interesting article. However can we have less of the Clarksonesque cheap semi-inaccurate jibes "Which is important, what with the British car industry having abandoned its greatness at around about the same time that Steven Spielberg decided to make a film about a very big fish."
There always has to be some neqativeness about anything home grown, even in this tangential way.
If it were an German car and we were on a German website we would be saying it is much better than the Ferrari. So come on lets be a bit more positive and look at the future instead of always mentioning the past!
Well, Britain has turned out some convincing rivals to the Porsche 911, Volkswagen Golf, Audi R8, Audi TT, Porsche Cayman, Mercedes SLS, Mercedes SL, BMW M3 and BMW M5 over the past ten years hasn't it?There always has to be some neqativeness about anything home grown, even in this tangential way.
If it were an German car and we were on a German website we would be saying it is much better than the Ferrari. So come on lets be a bit more positive and look at the future instead of always mentioning the past!
Oh no. It hasn't.
Harry Monk said:
Well, Britain has turned out some convincing rivals to the Porsche 911, Volkswagen Golf, Audi R8, Audi TT, Porsche Cayman, Mercedes SLS, Mercedes SL, BMW M3 and BMW M5 over the past ten years hasn't it?
Oh no. It hasn't.
What a load of rubbish, I suspect the owner of the above statement is an idiot!Oh no. It hasn't.
I am not going to say all the options below are / were better, but they are certainly rivals, "convinving" is a more subjective matter.
Porsche 911 rivals - Lotus Esprits and TVRs when they were around, Nobles more recently and Lotus Evora S, Aston Martin Vantage currently.
VW Golf, Plenty of hot hatch alternatives out there, the Focus ST we developed on home soil, despite being a yank brand.
Audi R8 - Aston Martin Vantage and Jag XKR
Prosche Cayman - Lotus Evora
Merc SLS - Jag XF
Merc SL - Jags and Astons
M3 - this has been for most its life in a league of its own. Recently S-type R, and XFR are close in performance and price.
M5 - Lotus Carlton and (the older) Jag XJRs, currently XFR.
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