RE: Driven: McLaren MP4-12C

[ZeroH]

Streetrod said:

Now your asking. Well it has to be a 458 (minus the Ferrari goon squad looking over you shoulder), Lamborghini LP 570-4 Superleggera, Porsche GT2 RS, and a Noble M600 would be an interesting addition, Oh and an Lexus LFA.

PS I forgot the R8 GT. I am also available most days at short notice if you need a hand if you know what I mean

Edited by Streetrod on Tuesday 15th February 17:24

Oi, get in line !! I'm first in the queue for testing

lol !!

[lauda]

Goodfella 555 said:

I know i'll probably get banned from this website for posting this comment, but sports cars Audi R8 upwards; are you really going to use the performance to its limit that often that you'll really notice the difference? In the real world is the performance of this McLaren noticably different to say an R8? Unless you do laps of Nurburgring everyday the answer has to be no, otherwise you'd be banned from driving or dead. So with this in mind with sports cars, image has to be more important than whether or not it'll do 60 in 0.5 second quicker than its rivals or it'll go round the top gear track 1.5 seconds (in the hands of an experienced racing driver) quicker. Sorry to be a bore but my S2k will do over 70 in second gear and over 95 in third (on the track of course) and you get to a point where you think does it really matter that a Z4M is slightly quicker or a Boxster slightly slower? I just think i don't want to look like a swinger or a manager of an estate agency...

The man speaks a lot of sense! There is a lot of bks written on this site by people who (myself included) have little hope of exploiting 70-80% of the capability of their cars, let alone the last 5% or so which actually differentiates most cars in the same class. Still, it's fun to dream that we can all drive like Loeb!

[NoelWatson]

Obiwonkeyblokey said:

( and blew another one up!)

How did you manage that?

[CraigyMc]

Scuffers said:

Chris Chilton said:

what would be your ideal group test lineup?

realistically, I would suggest:

Audi R8
Ferrari 458
Porsche 911 GT2 RS
Lamborghini Gallardo LP560-4

and I guess the Noble M600 for giggles

Dammit Scuffers, you beat me to the punch with that list, although I'd have wanted an R8 GT and a Gallardo LP 570-4 Superleggera.
With that, I think the group above has all the natural contenders in the MP4/12C's price range and/or segment.

Ignoring the launch stories, the interesting set of "second stories" for me would be to put it up against some stuff it doesn't naturally complete with. I'm not talking about a Land Rover or a Maybach, but more like the old royalty of supercars - clearly there is going to be a test with an F1 and an MP4/12C in it. I think it might be interesting to have an Enzo/Zonda/Carrera GT in there too, if the cars can be sourced.

I imagine an MP4/12C & Enzo test in particular might be quite good reading.

C

[BuzyG]

Well I have to say I wasn't expecting that. A thorough drubbing, it would appear, for the current best "afordable" super car in the world 458. Time to put the missus up for sale. Well done Mclarren, role on the goupe tests.

[Police State]

Don't know if this has been posted already...

3-way drag race between MP4-12C, Italia 458, 911 Turbo

interestingly the 911 turbo gets a slow start (no launch control?)

http://ca.jalopnik.com/5760892/watch-a-mclaren-dra...

[CraigyMc]

Police State said:

Don't know if this has been posted already...

3-way drag race between MP4-12C, Italia 458, 911 Turbo

interestingly the 911 turbo gets a slow start (no launch control?)

http://ca.jalopnik.com/5760892/watch-a-mclaren-dra...

It has been already. The 911 is, I think, a little hampered by the 4wd - you can see it "trying" to launch.

The 458 and MP4/12c seem to launch pretty close to each other, although I'd be surprised if they were both using launch control.

It would be good to know what rubber the Mclaren had on it - the optional corsa tyres are worth 0.2 of a second to 60 according to the articles. Doesn't sound like much when written like that but it's the difference between 3.3 and 3.1s to 60, so it's actually somewhere over a 5% difference on that increment.

C

[Harry Monk]

Goodfella 555 said:

I know i'll probably get banned from this website for posting this comment, but sports cars Audi R8 upwards; are you really going to use the performance to its limit that often that you'll really notice the difference? In the real world is the performance of this McLaren noticably different to say an R8? Unless you do laps of Nurburgring everyday the answer has to be no, otherwise you'd be banned from driving or dead. So with this in mind with sports cars, image has to be more important than whether or not it'll do 60 in 0.5 second quicker than its rivals or it'll go round the top gear track 1.5 seconds (in the hands of an experienced racing driver) quicker. Sorry to be a bore but my S2k will do over 70 in second gear and over 95 in third (on the track of course) and you get to a point where you think does it really matter that a Z4M is slightly quicker or a Boxster slightly slower? I just think i don't want to look like a swinger or a manager of an estate agency...

These points are all very valid, but McLaren seem to be actively targeting people to whom the ultimate performance and dynamic excellence of the car DOES matter. If you're more concerned with how other people perceive you, by all means buy a Ferrari or a Lamborghini or a baby Bentley. I like the fact that the Macca might look a bit out of place outside the casino at Monte Carlo. I'd prefer to see it getting four wheels off the ground at Schwedenkreuz, personally.

[CraigyMc]

Harry Monk said:

.I'd prefer to see it getting four wheels off the ground at Schwedenkreuz, personally.

Isn't Schwedenkreuz the fast, tightening lefthander just before Aremberg?

There's a bump just before it but I didn't know cars went airborne there...

C

[Mr Whippy]

lauda said:

Goodfella 555 said:

I know i'll probably get banned from this website for posting this comment, but sports cars Audi R8 upwards; are you really going to use the performance to its limit that often that you'll really notice the difference? In the real world is the performance of this McLaren noticably different to say an R8? Unless you do laps of Nurburgring everyday the answer has to be no, otherwise you'd be banned from driving or dead. So with this in mind with sports cars, image has to be more important than whether or not it'll do 60 in 0.5 second quicker than its rivals or it'll go round the top gear track 1.5 seconds (in the hands of an experienced racing driver) quicker. Sorry to be a bore but my S2k will do over 70 in second gear and over 95 in third (on the track of course) and you get to a point where you think does it really matter that a Z4M is slightly quicker or a Boxster slightly slower? I just think i don't want to look like a swinger or a manager of an estate agency...

The man speaks a lot of sense! There is a lot of bks written on this site by people who (myself included) have little hope of exploiting 70-80% of the capability of their cars, let alone the last 5% or so which actually differentiates most cars in the same class. Still, it's fun to dream that we can all drive like Loeb!

Yep, most hot hatches today can push the limit point on the road really easily.

Beyond say M3 CSL kinda performance, there is little extra you can really use often. Even accelerating at sub 4.5s 0-60mph is kinda tough, is there good enough grip to do it in under 4.5s (ie, not wet, not cold, not lose chippings etc), and you start from a stop with a good run ahead (rare)
0-125mph in sub 10s, nice. Where do you ever do that on a road? It's pretty rare.

Thinking on from that, the last thing I would want in a road car, is to go fast more easily. Give me a slow manual gearbox to make it harder to extract the power. Give me crappier visibility to stop me overtaking everywhere and being pulled by Plod for 'furious' driving

99% of owners won't do what magazine journos have done for this review (track work), 90% probably won't drive it as hard as the journalists do on their road test.



To be realistic, a well driven M3 or RS4 will probably stick with a 12C on UK roads, unless a driver is going to be a bit reckless and go beyond the limit point.
At that point you may as well stop trying to argue the point, the biggest idiot always "wins" irrespective of what they drive (within reason of course )


You could probably say the same about loads of fast sports cars or super sports cars today.

Thats why I'd always go with sensations and challenge and reward with that kind of car, rather than any paper stats or 'technology' innovations.

Dave

Edited by Mr Whippy on Tuesday 15th February 23:53

[flemke]

CraigyMc said:

Harry Monk said:

.I'd prefer to see it getting four wheels off the ground at Schwedenkreuz, personally.

Isn't Schwedenkreuz the fast, tightening lefthander just before Aremberg?

There's a bump just before it but I didn't know cars went airborne there...

C

They don't, unless they have a very serious problem.

[GALLARDOGUY]

ZeroH said:

Chris, group test pls of:

GT2RS v 458 v Mclaren v R8 GT or 570SV v GT-R

GT2RS would be the straight line & track time benchmark, 458 the nearest competitor, R8 GT/570SV as the ultimate versions of fantastic cars, and the GT-R to see how far its giant killing abilities go.

And if the macca gets through that lot, line it up against the 599GT0 and new LP700 to see if there is any need to spend a penny more than the £170k odd that Mclaren charges to get the ultimate sports car.

+1

[Harry Monk]

Whoops. Too late, too much work. Meant Pflanzgarten. As you were.

[cathalm]

Harry Monk said:

When you have no argument, go with the ad hominem. The tactic of the internet bully.

Now now Harold, I was being nice. You seem knowledgeable enough so I think you know yourself that your statement about British credible alternatives ( note, you did not say superiors) would be rather easy to assault. Hence my deletion, I'm in a quite splendid mood and didn't want to be too harsh.

[Mr Whippy]

GALLARDOGUY said:

ZeroH said:

Chris, group test pls of:

GT2RS v 458 v Mclaren v R8 GT or 570SV v GT-R

GT2RS would be the straight line & track time benchmark, 458 the nearest competitor, R8 GT/570SV as the ultimate versions of fantastic cars, and the GT-R to see how far its giant killing abilities go.

And if the macca gets through that lot, line it up against the 599GT0 and new LP700 to see if there is any need to spend a penny more than the £170k odd that Mclaren charges to get the ultimate sports car.

+1

On UK road ala ECOTY, and track ala ETCOTY...



Dave

[Mark34bn]

I'd like to see a comparison between MP4-12C and F1. In gear times, throttle response etc. The 12C posts quicker times but is it a result (as Andrew Frankel said in his Autocar 430 Scud vs F40 video) of LC and seamless gearchanges??
Would the F1's superior power/torque to weight make it much faster once it's rolling?

[robsco]

I'm sorry for not succumbing to patriotism, but I'm afraid its still the Ferrari that pushes my buttons the most. The statistics for the McLaren are nothing short of incredible, but from looking at it on the photos and reading up on it, I don't find myself wanting one. After all, I'm never going to experience either from a driving point of view, so my opinion is based solely on how the cars make me feel when I look at them, and its still the Ferrari which stirs the senses the most.

As an engineering achievement however, the McLaren is a masterpiece much like the F1 before it. It just shows that us Brits can still produce mind-boggling machinery.

[Marcia]

the-photographer said:

I want one now, right now!

Me too!

[Richard-G]

are we really saying that this is a bland car? it's a very confidantly designed car with alot of nods to its brother over there i also like the way that Mclaren havn't panderd to the masses like ferrari with the 458's 'audi'esque jump on the bandwagon led light strips'

if i ever get the means, im buying mine in chrome, rocket red wheels.

[CraigyMc]

Mark34bn said:

I'd like to see a comparison between MP4-12C and F1. In gear times, throttle response etc. The 12C posts quicker times but is it a result (as Andrew Frankel said in his Autocar 430 Scud vs F40 video) of LC and seamless gearchanges??
Would the F1's superior power/torque to weight make it much faster once it's rolling?

There are a few people on PH who have at least one of the requisite cars. I wonder how many of those people are also interested in the MP4/12C..?

I'd much rather read a well though out opinion by someone intimately familiar with all aspects of both cars than by a journo who had either for only a few hours or days, and had a McLaren press release to regurgitate in a puff piece. Quite apart from anything else, I'd rather read a less bombastic review than one created to help sell a magazine and the advertising contained within. It's one of the things I miss about LJK Setright.

On your other point (speed of the F1 versus MP4/12C) - I do have one observation: the two cars are separated by only approximately 35bhp (592 versus 627), but the top speeds are separated by quite some margin- 205mph plays 241mph (ok, I've ignored the 7500rpm rev limiter on the F1 as McLaren did during their test at Ehra Lessien - correctly geared for top speed in 6th it might have been faster, given that the 241mph top speed was past peak power).

Is the older car really that much smaller of frontal area and/or aerodynamic drag?
The F1's frontal area is (according to wikipedia, which I can't believe I'm quoting) 1.79 square metres, with a Cd of 0.32.
I'd like to see the equivalent numbers for the MP4/12C.

I'd imagine it's this drag characteristic of the F1 which would make it the faster car in the higher speed range (say 100mph and above), rather than the torque of its engine.

C