RE: Driven: McLaren MP4-12C
Discussion
urquattro said:
Superb engineering from this country, 50 years ago E Type hit the news, this car deserves the same applause and recognition. Would prefer this to the Italian car.
Are you mental? Even if we say the 12C is the best looking and performing current supercar. (which I don't subscribe to) It's no where near as innovative as the E Type was back in the day. Your argument is like saying the new Volkswagen Polo is as innovative as the Mini was 50+ years ago. 
12C is just another supercar. There's nothing on this car that hasn't been done before. Aside from a manufacturing proces for the CF part. You do know that part is done in Austria don't you, British my fecking arse!
Gtioli said:
I hope Ron Dennis is being selective to who he sells them to, the first time a premiership footballer buys one the brand will be deminished. I trully hope it doesn't attract their attention.
Don't think car manufacturers have been able to "Select"their customers since about 1960! Realistically, if you have the money, come on down.FishFace said:
That picture shows how stunning and modern the F1 still looks.
It also shows that one appears to have been drawn by a hand, while the other was dragged by a mouse. The F1 is timeless, save for the odd tiny detail here and there. eg: the rear lights.In saying that, I also think the 12C looks better than the Italia 458 (in profile); because it's surfaces somehow look more resolved as one entity; in particular, the roofline looks like it belongs there. Also, the 12C certainly seems to look more 'supercar' with the optional contrasting carbon vane on its flanks. (looks better then the Audi R8 equivalent).
Mr Whippy said:
No manual?
I don't doubt this is a fantastic car, but does it really need to have no manual option? The last thing it sounds like it needs is to go faster with less effort from the driver!
I guess those who can afford one of these have their 'fun' cars (Atom, Caterfield etc?) as well though.
Dave
It is a shame. They seem to be leaving manuals behind in these sorts of cars. I don't doubt this is a fantastic car, but does it really need to have no manual option? The last thing it sounds like it needs is to go faster with less effort from the driver!
I guess those who can afford one of these have their 'fun' cars (Atom, Caterfield etc?) as well though.
Dave
hornetrider said:
Hamy530 said:
Nice, and good value too
Awesome lurkage.
In other news, a couple of good videos with McLaren design director Frank Stephenson giving an up close look at MP4-12C.
Part 1 goes into the technology and design philosophy of the car.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgiBh5ekHOM&fea...
part 2 covers the interior, engine heat management and the speed brake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyN0A_jTkI0&fea...
FishFace said:
Richard-G said:
are we really saying that this is a bland car? it's a very confidantly designed car with alot of nods to its brother over there
i also like the way that Mclaren havn't panderd to the masses like ferrari with the 458's 'audi'esque jump on the bandwagon led light strips'if i ever get the means, im buying mine in chrome, rocket red wheels.
I'm sure it's an awesomely engineered car and probably great to drive, but it's the plain-jane sister of the supercar world.
M.
marcosgt said:
FishFace said:
Richard-G said:
are we really saying that this is a bland car? it's a very confidantly designed car with alot of nods to its brother over there
i also like the way that Mclaren havn't panderd to the masses like ferrari with the 458's 'audi'esque jump on the bandwagon led light strips'if i ever get the means, im buying mine in chrome, rocket red wheels.
I'm sure it's an awesomely engineered car and probably great to drive, but it's the plain-jane sister of the supercar world.
M.
Rich_W said:
urquattro said:
Superb engineering from this country, 50 years ago E Type hit the news, this car deserves the same applause and recognition. Would prefer this to the Italian car.
Are you mental? Even if we say the 12C is the best looking and performing current supercar. (which I don't subscribe to) It's no where near as innovative as the E Type was back in the day. Your argument is like saying the new Volkswagen Polo is as innovative as the Mini was 50+ years ago. 12C is just another supercar. There's nothing on this car that hasn't been done before. Aside from a manufacturing proces for the CF part. You do know that part is done in Austria don't you, British my fecking arse!
How many innovations do they need to throw at the car to satisfy you? (I have my suspicions you'd always find a way to make out it's just another car).
How many equivalent innovations does the equivalent Fezza have?
C
CraigyMc said:
And brake-steer. And pre-cog. And the hydraulic suspension arrangement. And an engine tractable enough to put out peak torque at 2000rpm while still revving to 8500. And a proper airbrake.
How many innovations do they need to throw at the car to satisfy you? (I have my suspicions you'd always find a way to make out it's just another car).
How many equivalent innovations does the equivalent Fezza have?
C
It depends what you call and innovation, or just a productionised concept, or just a re-branded or re-tasked existing hardware/tech.How many innovations do they need to throw at the car to satisfy you? (I have my suspicions you'd always find a way to make out it's just another car).
How many equivalent innovations does the equivalent Fezza have?
C
Brake steer is just a pro-active ESP system, a bit like the E-diff on the new MINI Cooper S, or the 135Ci... the F458 even uses variable diff slip to generate desireable wheel velocities at the back end.
It's been done in F1 before too.
So it's more just making current tech do something new.
The suspension again doesn't look new. It's similar to what we have seen in the V8 RS6, and a Citroen with air suspension, but again, taken a step further and with active control via ECU/valving etc.
2000rpm peak torque, with an 8500rpm limit is impressive. I wonder if they hadn't artificially limited the torque so it did peak at 2000rpm, and instead peaked at maybe a natural 3500rpm or so, it would sound as impressive though!?
A proper airbrake. Enzo, F1, Veyron, Huayra (even has ones that operate to generate yaw too)
Pre-cog, not sure what that does in practice except a two stage switch on the gear selector. Is that really innovation?
Not saying it's not impressive, but how much is just putting into practice what others haven't, or just doing it better than others that did it before.
Hmmm
Dave
Junglehop said:
Harking back to some of the comparisons made against the 458 and Gallardo etc...Lotus may as well just pack up.. new esprit... pppffftt
Why?If they price the new Esprit at £150K+ yes I agree they wont sell many but in the £100K - £130K it could do very well indeed.
Whats the competition apart from Porsche?
Yes there will be a load of second hand choices for that money but thats true of any car in any price sector.
I dont think the Esprit will compete with the 458 & McLaren but it may nick some sales from them if its good enough and is significantly cheaper.
Mr Whippy said:
A proper airbrake. Enzo, F1, Veyron, Huayra (even has ones that operate to generate yaw too)
Firstly, the Enzo doesn't have an airbrake, unless I've totally missed it. Photo?As far as I'm aware the only active aerodynamics on any road ferrari are the bendy spoilerettes on the front of the F458.
The F1 has an active spoiler, but it's not of the same type as the ones on the MP4/12C and Veyron. The purpose of the F1's spoiler is to balance the aero centre of pressure and affect the flow of other parts while braking. It's not under constant active control, rather it's linked into the braking system, as I understand it.
The MP4/12C does have a very similar system to that fitted on the Veyron. It pops up to a massive angle (pretty mutch 90degrees, from the photos) on hydraulic pressure, and has other modes (low drag/intermediate) which are similar to the veyron. I see this as no slight, and it's quite an innovation to have in the £160K market rather than the billionaire market the veyron shoots for.
The Huayra does indeed seem to have two rear airbrakes/spoilers, but since the car is so new I've no info on it. Also innovative, but from a class or two above where the MP4/12C is going.
Mr Whippy said:
Pre-cog, not sure what that does in practice except a two stage switch on the gear selector. Is that really innovation?
It's not something I've seen on any other dual-clutch gearbox of the modern age.It allows you to preselect the next gear manually (instead of the dual-clutch mechanism guessing, based on what you're doing).
The selection of the next gear (ie, what the inactive shaft and clutch are up to) is not something you usually get control over these days - a computer guesses for you.
eg. If you are driving along in 4th gear say, then floor it to overtake, you want to change down to 3rd gear. A typical problem is that if you've been trundling in 4th for a while, the next preselected gear the car will have guessed is 5th, because you've been trundling. It thinks the next thing to happen is a change up, not down. It is forced to deselect 5th then select 3rd instead, and it does that in a far slower time than the speed it can just swap clutches in. I can change gear by hand faster.
This is a problem I've had personally with DSG boxes on a few cars - the example on the TT did it a couple of times when I wanted to overtake and I was left waiting for it to "robo-manually" select the gear rather than the usual instant next cog on the opposite shaft thing. This system deals with that problem.
Someone will probably pop up in a minute to tell me I'm wrong, but as long as one shaft is doing gears 1,3,5 and the other is doing 2,4,6 - this sort of problem will always be possible, and pre-cog solves it.
Mr Whippy said:
Not saying it's not impressive, but how much is just putting into practice what others haven't, or just doing it better than others that did it before.
Hmmm
Dave
Fair enough. I think it's impressive that they've crammed a lot of new stuff which actually works into a car costing this much (or I suppose this little, given what they've developed into the car).Hmmm
Dave
Edited by CraigyMc on Friday 18th February 14:12
CraigyMc said:
The MP4/12C does have a very similar system to that fitted on the Veyron. It pops up to a massive angle (pretty mutch 90degrees, from the photos) on hydraulic pressure, and has other modes (low drag/intermediate) which are similar to the veyron. I see this as no slight, and it's quite an innovation to have in the £160K market rather than the billionaire market the veyron shoots for.
The McLaren wing is slightly different in the way it works in normal modes. The hydraulic's only lift it so far, then it is designed that the actual air flow helps lift it to deploy as fully as the speed requires. This saves alot of weight (apparently) and means it is far more 'active' in it's operation. The rest your spot on with in that the wing is popped to the near vertical depending on speed/brake pressure etc.
Mr Whippy said:
Brake steer is just a pro-active ESP system, a bit like the E-diff on the new MINI Cooper S, or the 135Ci... the F458 even uses variable diff slip to generate desireable wheel velocities at the back end.
I think you might want to go and have a read about that brake-steer system, because it's not what you describe.Brake-steer on the MP4/12C works irrespective of whether you're speeding up, slowing down or steady state.
C
VladD said:
marcosgt said:
FishFace said:
Richard-G said:
are we really saying that this is a bland car? it's a very confidantly designed car with alot of nods to its brother over there
i also like the way that Mclaren havn't panderd to the masses like ferrari with the 458's 'audi'esque jump on the bandwagon led light strips'if i ever get the means, im buying mine in chrome, rocket red wheels.
I'm sure it's an awesomely engineered car and probably great to drive, but it's the plain-jane sister of the supercar world.
M.
Certainly doesn't for me and yet looks distinctive and interesting.
M.
It's impressive, don't get me wrong.
They have considered a great deal, and all these things seem to come together really well as a package, which is where the magic is I think.
In isolation each part doesn't feel that amazing or impressive really.
Pre-cog just senses the paddle being pressed a bit at all (ie, your hand is just resting on it), and so knows that gear may come next and uses it in those fractions of a second to make the best decision.
I didn't realise DSG pre-selected a gear in anticipation with such a high cost if it were the wrong one. In raw terms it's refined software and an extra switch, but again, it'd doesn't sound like anyone has done it before.
I'm just worried that it all makes the car really really devastatingly effective, but that it's answering questions no one really had anyway.
I like a stiffer car. I like a noisier car. I like a car whose SMG gearbox might be a bit savage when driven hard.
A car that is perfect just sounds boring to me (maybe I'm just weird?!)
Dave
They have considered a great deal, and all these things seem to come together really well as a package, which is where the magic is I think.
In isolation each part doesn't feel that amazing or impressive really.
Pre-cog just senses the paddle being pressed a bit at all (ie, your hand is just resting on it), and so knows that gear may come next and uses it in those fractions of a second to make the best decision.
I didn't realise DSG pre-selected a gear in anticipation with such a high cost if it were the wrong one. In raw terms it's refined software and an extra switch, but again, it'd doesn't sound like anyone has done it before.
I'm just worried that it all makes the car really really devastatingly effective, but that it's answering questions no one really had anyway.
I like a stiffer car. I like a noisier car. I like a car whose SMG gearbox might be a bit savage when driven hard.
A car that is perfect just sounds boring to me
(maybe I'm just weird?!)Dave
Mr Whippy said:
I like a stiffer car. I like a noisier car. I like a car whose SMG gearbox might be a bit savage when driven hard.
A car that is perfect just sounds boring to me (maybe I'm just weird?!)
Dave
Think of precog being like the autofocus button on a camera - slight push to set it, then full push to do the thing. I see it like that.A car that is perfect just sounds boring to me
(maybe I'm just weird?!)Dave
Stiffness you say? the monocell is very rigid, I understand - particularly compared with the rest of the cars available in its segment... but I think you mean suspension here.
You sound like you'd be at home in an atom v8, or a 911 racer full of scaffolding. Perhaps if McLaren decide to make a roadgoing version of the planned MP4/12C racer you'd like that more? (it will most likely be devoid of many of the nice bits we've been talking about, since you can't have brakesteer/active aero on racecars).
C
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