RE: Driven: McLaren MP4-12C
Discussion
Davey S2 said:
Whats the competition apart from Porsche?
What Porsche is that? GT2RS is in same ball park (price wise) but all sold out - all other Porsches that aren't special editions are at least £40k cheaper, so not competing against the MP12, I'd suggest, and the new hybrid V8 thingy will be at least twice as much as the MP12, so I think it's fair to say that Porsche isn't the competition.Was this actually a serious question? Or a joke? As the pricing point for the MP12 shows that Mclaren thinks it's main competition is the 458.
CraigyMc said:
Think of precog being like the autofocus button on a camera - slight push to set it, then full push to do the thing. I see it like that.
Stiffness you say? the monocell is very rigid, I understand - particularly compared with the rest of the cars available in its segment... but I think you mean suspension here.
You sound like you'd be at home in an atom v8, or a 911 racer full of scaffolding. Perhaps if McLaren decide to make a roadgoing version of the planned MP4/12C racer you'd like that more? (it will most likely be devoid of many of the nice bits we've been talking about, since you can't have brakesteer/active aero on racecars).
C
Yep, precog is like that, from what I read months ago somewhere... hmmm...Stiffness you say? the monocell is very rigid, I understand - particularly compared with the rest of the cars available in its segment... but I think you mean suspension here.
You sound like you'd be at home in an atom v8, or a 911 racer full of scaffolding. Perhaps if McLaren decide to make a roadgoing version of the planned MP4/12C racer you'd like that more? (it will most likely be devoid of many of the nice bits we've been talking about, since you can't have brakesteer/active aero on racecars).
C
Yep, suspension stiffness. Not silly levels to make it harsh of course. I guess thats the issue, tolerance levels, and the expected buyers tolerance
My fave 'sports' cars are TVR and GT Porsches, ummm, and M3 CSL/F360 CS... so it makes sense that the MP4 isn't really aimed at me...
It'll be interesting to see what they come up with for a hardcore model
Well, I've now seen one on the road. Dark metallic blue came through our village just now heading towards the m42. We live near the prodrive track, don't know if it had been there but we get all sorts of "nice" stuff coming through our village anyway due to the nearby footballers.
It was filthy, but still looked stunning. The back of it, which I've never been convinced in the pictures looked very dramatic and in the blue looked superb. The driver was just cruising but it still sounded very nice indeed.
And then, it was gone.
I'd have one in a second.
It was filthy, but still looked stunning. The back of it, which I've never been convinced in the pictures looked very dramatic and in the blue looked superb. The driver was just cruising but it still sounded very nice indeed.
And then, it was gone.
I'd have one in a second.
Did anyone from PH actually drive the 12C? Because there's not much evidence of that in the review...
In addition when is there going to be a McLaren forum? I've asked this a few times over the last few years but the typical response is "because they haven't made a car yet".
Is the PH boss anti-McLaren or something? Come on lads sort it out...
In addition when is there going to be a McLaren forum? I've asked this a few times over the last few years but the typical response is "because they haven't made a car yet".
Is the PH boss anti-McLaren or something? Come on lads sort it out...
Dark metallic blue (with stealth wheels) is the colour of my one in my fantasy garage. Its also the colour of the configured one on my desktop. 
Specific McLaren forums are a bit thin on the ground at the moment, the only one I have found to date is McLaren Life.
http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/index.php
Would be nice for PH to either create one, or at least add it to the Ferrari, Maserati, Lambo and Buggati section.
http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/index.php
Would be nice for PH to either create one, or at least add it to the Ferrari, Maserati, Lambo and Buggati section.
Lazerblue said:
Specific McLaren forums are a bit thin on the ground at the moment, the only one I have found to date is McLaren Life.
http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/index.php
Would be nice for PH to either create one, or at least add it to the Ferrari, Maserati, Lambo and Buggati section.
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=2204http://www.mclarenlife.com/forums/index.php
Would be nice for PH to either create one, or at least add it to the Ferrari, Maserati, Lambo and Buggati section.
CraigyMc said:
The F1 has an active spoiler, but it's not of the same type as the ones on the MP4/12C and Veyron. The purpose of the F1's spoiler is to balance the aero centre of pressure and affect the flow of other parts while braking. It's not under constant active control, rather it's linked into the braking system, as I understand it.
SLR had an active rear spoiler. So not terribly new.Craig said:
It's not something I've seen on any other dual-clutch gearbox of the modern age.
It allows you to preselect the next gear manually (instead of the dual-clutch mechanism guessing, based on what you're doing).
The selection of the next gear (ie, what the inactive shaft and clutch are up to) is not something you usually get control over these days - a computer guesses for you.
eg. If you are driving along in 4th gear say, then floor it to overtake, you want to change down to 3rd gear. A typical problem is that if you've been trundling in 4th for a while, the next preselected gear the car will have guessed is 5th, because you've been trundling. It thinks the next thing to happen is a change up, not down. It is forced to deselect 5th then select 3rd instead, and it does that in a far slower time than the speed it can just swap clutches in. I can change gear by hand faster.
This is a problem I've had personally with DSG boxes on a few cars - the example on the TT did it a couple of times when I wanted to overtake and I was left waiting for it to "robo-manually" select the gear rather than the usual instant next cog on the opposite shaft thing. This system deals with that problem.
Someone will probably pop up in a minute to tell me I'm wrong, but as long as one shaft is doing gears 1,3,5 and the other is doing 2,4,6 - this sort of problem will always be possible, and pre-cog solves it.
You are kindof wrong It allows you to preselect the next gear manually (instead of the dual-clutch mechanism guessing, based on what you're doing).
The selection of the next gear (ie, what the inactive shaft and clutch are up to) is not something you usually get control over these days - a computer guesses for you.
eg. If you are driving along in 4th gear say, then floor it to overtake, you want to change down to 3rd gear. A typical problem is that if you've been trundling in 4th for a while, the next preselected gear the car will have guessed is 5th, because you've been trundling. It thinks the next thing to happen is a change up, not down. It is forced to deselect 5th then select 3rd instead, and it does that in a far slower time than the speed it can just swap clutches in. I can change gear by hand faster.
This is a problem I've had personally with DSG boxes on a few cars - the example on the TT did it a couple of times when I wanted to overtake and I was left waiting for it to "robo-manually" select the gear rather than the usual instant next cog on the opposite shaft thing. This system deals with that problem.
Someone will probably pop up in a minute to tell me I'm wrong, but as long as one shaft is doing gears 1,3,5 and the other is doing 2,4,6 - this sort of problem will always be possible, and pre-cog solves it.
By "preselecting" the next gear. You are actually telling the box what you want to do. Assuming your TT had paddles (not all DSGs do) you would get the same actual result, by flicking the left one. Which is what you would do in a manual. Just move you hand. DSG does gets flummoxed, but that's if you have it in full Auto mode. So "precog" as McL term it is pointless ultimately. DSG (and most others including McL version I would suspect) are pretty seamless. Everyone knows what a pain in the 
, digi cameras are when you want to take a picture.People want instnat change, not "pre select,then fire when you want it"craig said:
Fair enough. I think it's impressive that they've crammed a lot of new stuff which actually works into a car costing this much (or I suppose this little, given what they've developed into the car).
I think the fact they have all these "new" (or more accurately rebranded/tweaked) tech on their car is the interesting part. Certainly no supercar manufacturer save Ferrari with it's latest cars have been so complicated. And tbh I wonder if people are starting to question manufacturers needing so much technical icing. It's part of the reason GT3RS sales are through the roof.p.s You McLaren fan boy blinkers are in the post. Made in Austria for McLaren. Great British engineering that
Edited by Rich_W on Friday 18th February 22:13
SonnyM said:
Did anyone from PH actually drive the 12C? Because there's not much evidence of that in the review...
In addition when is there going to be a McLaren forum? I've asked this a few times over the last few years but the typical response is "because they haven't made a car yet".
Is the PH boss anti-McLaren or something? Come on lads sort it out...
Steve Sutcliffe who writes for Autocar drove the car quite a bit - 2000 miles back from Spain - and he wrote the article on PH. As PH and Autocar are part of Haymarket I guess it means someone from PH did drive the MP4-12C.In addition when is there going to be a McLaren forum? I've asked this a few times over the last few years but the typical response is "because they haven't made a car yet".
Is the PH boss anti-McLaren or something? Come on lads sort it out...
Maybe when there are some more cars there can be a forum. Or with the number of discussions going on in GG that can be renamed
Rich_W said:
You are kindof wrong By "preselecting" the next gear. You are actually telling the box what you want to do. Assuming your TT had paddles (not all DSGs do) you would get the same actual result, by flicking the left one.
<sigh> I was expecting this bulls By "preselecting" the next gear. You are actually telling the box what you want to do. Assuming your TT had paddles (not all DSGs do) you would get the same actual result, by flicking the left one.t.</sigh>You understand that with a DSG (or other double-clutch) box, two gears are selected at the same time, one from each output shaft, right?
For clarity of terms, just for this thread, call the one that is currently motivating the car (ie. has its clutch engaged) "selected" and the other shaft (the one with the clutch disengaged) "preselected".
If the car is currently driving along in 4th, and has already preselected 5th on the other output shaft, and I hit the left lever commanding 3rd gear - then what do you think the DSG box has to do?
It has to robotically deselect 5th and select 3rd instead - and that's not a fast operation, since it's not just disengaging one clutch and engaging the other. It's a actual robotic gearchange.
Rich_W said:
DSG does gets flummoxed, but that's if you have it in full Auto mode.
And also in the scenario I have outlined above, irrespective of auto/manual modes. I've experimented with this on various DSG cars, and it happens on all of them.Rich_W said:
So "precog" as McL term it is pointless ultimately.
No, you simply haven't understood what I'm talking about, and what precog does. In my example, precog allows you to manually preselect the next gear you want from your choice of 3rd or 5th.
In the scenario above, the computer for the DSG box is preselecting 5th based on driving pattern - it has to guess since there's no method for the driver to tell the car what gear he is going to require next, to give it time to preselect the right one.
Irrespective of whether you're in auto or manual mode, the car will always select two gears - one you're in (selected), and one you're about to be in (preselected).
Without pre-cog (or an input system like it), you have no way of telling the car which "next" gear to preselect, so it always has to guess which gear to preselect for you.
Sometimes (eg. my example) it will guess wrong.
Pre-cog allows me to preselect 3rd instead of 5th in the example above, so when I do actually shift gear, it will always be seamless. The gearbox will never guess wrong, because there's no guessing involved - I'm telling it what to do.
Rich_W said:
DSG (and most others including McL version I would suspect) are pretty seamless.
When just banging from one shaft to the other by swapping clutches, I totally agree. It's when they preselect the wrong "next" gear that they aren't seamless, and that's what precog solves.Rich_W said:
Everyone knows what a pain in the , digi cameras are when you want to take a picture.People want instnat change, not "pre select,then fire when you want it"
That statement is just plain wrong., digi cameras are when you want to take a picture.People want instnat change, not "pre select,then fire when you want it"
CraigyMc said:
Firstly, the Enzo doesn't have an airbrake, unless I've totally missed it. Photo?
As far as I'm aware the only active aerodynamics on any road ferrari are the bendy spoilerettes on the front of the F458.
The Enzo did have an active rear wing, but I've struggled to find any detail on the web explaining its functions. I know that it was deployed in Race Mode to enhance rear grip - I believe this photo shows it at full extension so it probably didn't do much to aid deceleration other than keeping slightly more pressure on the rear of the car, allowing the rear brakes to provide more stopping effort. As far as I'm aware the only active aerodynamics on any road ferrari are the bendy spoilerettes on the front of the F458.
<-- Click to enlarge 
= = = =
In the McLaren F1, there is a 3-position switch on the left dash pod which allows the driver some control of the car's 'Brake Balance Foil'.
In the center position the flap sits flush with the body as is typically seen, ready to deploy automatically under braking as you describe.
Turn the switch to the right of center and the foil raises to a fixed position of about 10 degrees to improve rear downforce under what the owner's manual terms 'difficult driving conditions'.
Rotating the switch to the left from the center position causes the foil to raise to its full extension at approximately 30 degrees, however this is just a test position and is only activated when the vehicle is stationary. It lowers automatically to the flush position when you begin driving with the switch in that position, and then will redeploy to full extension each time the vehicle stops.
Here's a favorite shot of XP4 being driven with the wing in the partially raised position:
<-- Click to enlarge = = = =
Also, I believe the new Pagani has active aero panels on the front of the car as well. You can see them in a raised position in this image. I haven't done any reading on the new car yet so I can't even begin to tell you how they are controlled or what effect they are intended to have other than the obvious.
>8^)
ER
CraigyMc said:
I know fking everything bullst.
SIGH!king everything bullst.I can rebuild a DSG box cheers. Don't bother trying to waste time explaining to me how the mechatronics works and the clutch alignment and all the other stuff. Or trying to explain things incirrectly to try and make your point valid. Cheers
You love McLaren. Great. But I don't buy into "pre cog" for 2 reasons. Firstly telling the box what you want to do next is not it "preselcting"
If you can be bothered see the old TG road test of the DSG 3.2 TT. He addresses the very issue you say with the box mis slecting gears.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU6uvU1Ebnc (4m20 in)
Even if you "assume" (like you prefer to) that the box 'guesses' you want 5th after 4th. The change is so fecking quick (it's a few solenoids for clutch and selectors) you will NEVER go to 5th then back to 3rd. In Auto mode where people don't drive it smoothly it DOES get confused. The fact that you apparently seem to get it when YOU drive DSGs tends to suggest you can't drive smoothly. You are trying to make out DSG is something from the stone age. If we are talking about crap "semi auto manuals" the Aston system was appauling (older stuff)
as as SMG1 (on BMW) but SMG2 and the older F1 system of Ferraris are much, much better. Though still behing DSG and PDK in terms of refinement.
And secondly. Windmills have COGS so the fact McLaren feel the need to "spasticate" it's marketting tells me a lot too.
And thirdly
Why the fk doesn't a "Drivers car" not have at least an option on a Proper manual?As the man says "I'm oot" listening to Mc fan boys. Is there anything on this car you don't love to the point of self induced orgasm?
I'm not reading 14 pages to see if it's already been said but shirley it has. An open diff? Now I may be from a somewhat simple background from an engineering point of view (and I realise that McLaren probably have more of an inkling re mechanics than me - maybe) but for me I'd prefer to see for example a clutch type lsd in the thing rather than it being controlled by electronics. As the article says - the electronics can be switched off; then what happens?
I realise there can be no comparison made against the F1 in terms of pure driving experience as they are poles apart as we know but I would have thought the F1 was looked after by mechanicals in the diff department rather than witchcraft and for me that would be more desirable in its 'replacement'
I remember looking at the Leon Cupra R and thinking "ooh it's got a front diff" then to find it's an e-diff so not really a diff at all but traction control and a flashy light on the dash when wheels spin.
I realise the 12C is all about technical advancements and I'm sure what I've said can be disassembled more easily than a <insert whitty euphemism here> but quite simply I'd prefer to see something with the words 'plates' or torsion' rather than 'open'. Urgh.
I'd still have one though..
I realise there can be no comparison made against the F1 in terms of pure driving experience as they are poles apart as we know but I would have thought the F1 was looked after by mechanicals in the diff department rather than witchcraft and for me that would be more desirable in its 'replacement'
I remember looking at the Leon Cupra R and thinking "ooh it's got a front diff" then to find it's an e-diff
so not really a diff at all but traction control and a flashy light on the dash when wheels spin.I realise the 12C is all about technical advancements and I'm sure what I've said can be disassembled more easily than a <insert whitty euphemism here> but quite simply I'd prefer to see something with the words 'plates' or torsion' rather than 'open'. Urgh.
I'd still have one though..
Rich_W said:
CraigyMc said:
I know fking everything bullst.
SIGH!king everything bullst.I can rebuild a DSG box cheers. Don't bother trying to waste time explaining to me how the mechatronics works and the clutch alignment and all the other stuff. Or trying to explain things incirrectly to try and make your point valid. Cheers
Rich_W said:
You love McLaren. Great. But I don't buy into "pre cog" for 2 reasons. Firstly telling the box what you want to do next is not it "preselcting"
This quote is from Borg Warner - makers of the DSG box as used in various Audi/VWs et al:Borg Warner said:
During operation the mechantronic system processes the following information:
If you actually want to know how it behaves, have a read of this: http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/gearbox/t... (under the "Twin Clutch Gearbox" section).- transmission input rotational speed
- input shaft speed of both transmissions
- wheel speed and road speed
- gear lever position
- accelerator pedal position (acceleration or deceleration)
Rich_W said:
If you can be bothered see the old TG road test of the DSG 3.2 TT. He addresses the very issue you say with the box mis slecting gears.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU6uvU1Ebnc (4m20 in)
OK, I've watched the video, for what it's worth (bugger all - it's entertainment, not information).http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU6uvU1Ebnc (4m20 in)
Clarkson doesn't actually talk about how long it takes to change gear when you "catch the logic out". He does say that when he's in 2nd, 3rd is in gear, spinning and ready to go. He then changes to 3rd. He goes on to say that the clutch which had 2nd on it is "now preparing 4th".
At 5m39 he says "you don't seem to be able to catch it out either", then says that when in 3rd, "it's bound to assume he's going to want 4th next" (it isn't).
He clearly hasn't understood how the logic in the box can be fooled. The fact that he even mentions that you can feasibly catch it out is useful though.
Does anyone honestly expect to learn in-depth about how stuff works from Top Gear?
Rich_W said:
Even if you "assume" (like you prefer to) that the box 'guesses' you want 5th after 4th. The change is so fecking quick (it's a few solenoids for clutch and selectors) you will NEVER go to 5th then back to 3rd. In Auto mode where people don't drive it smoothly it DOES get confused. The fact that you apparently seem to get it when YOU drive DSGs tends to suggest you can't drive smoothly. You are trying to make out DSG is something from the stone age. If we are talking about crap "semi auto manuals" the Aston system was appauling (older stuff) as as SMG1 (on BMW) but SMG2 and the older F1 system of Ferraris are much, much better. Though still behing DSG and PDK in terms of refinement.
I've put the bit I disagree with in bold. The gearbox is already in 5th on the idle shaft, so that needs to be deselected and 3rd selected, using the robotics.That process is not quick at all: that is my point. 1.1s to do a gearchange is not quick. Pre-cog removes this delay.
Rich_W said:
And secondly. Windmills have COGS so the fact McLaren feel the need to "spasticate" it's marketting tells me a lot too.
It's a play on words, "pre-cog"nition, versus the fact that you're "pre"-selecting the next "cog" in the gearbox. Why the insults?Rich_W said:
And thirdly Why the fk doesn't a "Drivers car" not have at least an option on a Proper manual?
You'd have to ask McLaren and Ferrari that, but I imagine it's to do with cost of engineering/manufacture versus expected sales. Why the fk doesn't a "Drivers car" not have at least an option on a Proper manual?I read before that Ferrari engineered the 458 with no manual option because over 80% of predicted sales were going to be autos anwyay. Same basic market as this car, isn't it?
Rich_W said:
As the man says "I'm oot" listening to Mc fan boys. Is there anything on this car you don't love to the point of self induced orgasm?
Just for clarity, My nickname isn't CraigyMc because of McLaren...In common with many people on here I don't think the styling is doing the car many favours, but I'm willing to overlook them based on the fact that the car is good at it's raison d'etre: it's a sports car. It is fast.
I like the fact that McLaren are a British company stepping into high end sportscars. I wish them well.
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