RE: Driven: McLaren MP4-12C
Discussion
kambites said:
Really? You don't think you can make a car better if you put more money into it and that journalists are going to have a natural tendency to rate a better car higher, even if it is substantially more expensive?
If the car is decent it should do OK even if cheaper - Clio Trophy being an example IIRC. The new year GT-R was supposed to be a lot better than previous year yet came way down the list - it doesn't make sense to me.NoelWatson said:
If the car is decent it should do OK even if cheaper - Clio Trophy being an example IIRC. The new year GT-R was supposed to be a lot better than previous year yet came way down the list - it doesn't make sense to me.
We'll have to agree to differ then. From what I've seen, cheaper cars have to punch considerably further above their weight than more expensive ones to do well in these kinds of rankings. Ferrari and Lamborghini maybe more emotive names, but I don't understand those who prophesize the McLaren to be a failure because of it being a new entrant into the market.
You seem to be forgetting one thing.
The F1.
Still regarded as a zenith of supercar development, and it held the fastest road car title for more than a decade until the Veyron.
There are not many Ferraris or Lamborghinis built during the same era as the F1 that would today command a minimum of £1 million.
Both Lamborghini and Ferrari are becoming as mainstream as Porsche; OK so neither are the mass produced supercar that comes out of Stuttgart, but both subsidiaries of global car manufacturers.
I predict the McLaren will do very well.
British cars today, in many international markets, are viewed as very high quality products. Jaguar Land Rover is on track to profit of just less than £1 billion, due mainly to very strong sales in Asia and other emerging markets.
Triumph motorcycles export 70% of its production.
The McLaren will also be viewed as a high-value brand; because it's British, because of the legacy of the F1 , but most of all because it's a bloody good car.
You seem to be forgetting one thing.
The F1.
Still regarded as a zenith of supercar development, and it held the fastest road car title for more than a decade until the Veyron.
There are not many Ferraris or Lamborghinis built during the same era as the F1 that would today command a minimum of £1 million.
Both Lamborghini and Ferrari are becoming as mainstream as Porsche; OK so neither are the mass produced supercar that comes out of Stuttgart, but both subsidiaries of global car manufacturers.
I predict the McLaren will do very well.
British cars today, in many international markets, are viewed as very high quality products. Jaguar Land Rover is on track to profit of just less than £1 billion, due mainly to very strong sales in Asia and other emerging markets.
Triumph motorcycles export 70% of its production.
The McLaren will also be viewed as a high-value brand; because it's British, because of the legacy of the F1 , but most of all because it's a bloody good car.
adycav said:
At least Porsche still give the customer a choice.
If you want the tech-laden super fast gadget monster buy a Turbo (S).
If you want a more challenging, pure undiluted experience buy a GT3 (RS).
For the time being anyway.
I can't speak for Lambos - I don't know much about them as I know that I probably won't ever afford to buy/run one...
Exactly.If you want the tech-laden super fast gadget monster buy a Turbo (S).
If you want a more challenging, pure undiluted experience buy a GT3 (RS).
For the time being anyway.
I can't speak for Lambos - I don't know much about them as I know that I probably won't ever afford to buy/run one...
The RS models are manuals, because it's lighter. It also makes sense for the focus of the car and the buyer demographic.
Porsche do their fast/effective/efficient cars too, Turbo S, S, etc, which are the ones DSG comes on, but even they have manual choices still.
Then Lambo have gone with a single clutch on the new Murcielago, so it's a good old robotised manual with a bit of a pause and a kick... nice. Makes an event out of the gear change.
These are ultimately road and fast track cars, they are for fun, not for setting lap times, and a gearbox that is full of character adds fun imo.
I'm of the mind that DSG will be expensive and a weak spot as they get older. 911's today may come with mainly DSG boxes, but in 10 yrs when enthusiasts are looking for a 911, will they be wanting the effective but rather dull DSG, or a proper manual?
Will expensive clutch replacements put people off further? They put people off all other automatics as they get older (Ferrari F1, BMW SMG etc)...
I can see all these fancy gearboxes actually costing owners more in the longer term as they are not as desireable to enthusiasts buying these cars a long way down the line, nor are they as nice on the wallet if they break!
Hmmmmm...
All I know is that all the fancy sports cars that I can't quite afford today, but I would happily get in 6 years or so after some depreciating, are manuals. Does the demographic that wants these types of cars as they depreciate, also still want a DSG type gearbox... hmmm.
Maybe that will matter in the McLaren's case as prices drop over the years? Maybe it won't. I just think all the eggs in the DSG basket is a rather ignorant move!
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
Maybe that will matter in the McLaren's case as prices drop over the years? Maybe it won't. I just think all the eggs in the DSG basket is a rather ignorant move!
Dave
think you have missed some points here....Dave
there are no off-the-shelf manual boxes that would suit this car, so, they had to have one designed and made.
now, given that that kind of thing cost £££, you would only want to make one, and which one do you think would be in demand on a £170K Ferrari competitor?
can you imagine what people would be saying if there was only a manual version?
Mr Whippy said:
911's today may come with mainly DSG boxes, but in 10 yrs when enthusiasts are looking for a 911, will they be wanting the effective but rather dull DSG, or a proper manual?
The manual. Have a look at the MKIV Supra, the UK spec is revered by enthusiasts of the marque, being the rarest and having the best spec of all models. Out of approximately 650 UK models sold, only 100 were manuals, the vast majority being sold with the excellent (optional) auto gearbox. While the auto gearbox in these cars is still fantastic to this day, it's the manuals that command a huge premium. Auto cars are available from approx. £6k, manuals starting at around £8k for a rough one, decent ones starting at around £12k. j_s14a said:
Mr Whippy said:
911's today may come with mainly DSG boxes, but in 10 yrs when enthusiasts are looking for a 911, will they be wanting the effective but rather dull DSG, or a proper manual?
The manual. Have a look at the MKIV Supra, the UK spec is revered by enthusiasts of the marque, being the rarest and having the best spec of all models. Out of approximately 650 UK models sold, only 100 were manuals, the vast majority being sold with the excellent (optional) auto gearbox. While the auto gearbox in these cars is still fantastic to this day, it's the manuals that command a huge premium. Auto cars are available from approx. £6k, manuals starting at around £8k for a rough one, decent ones starting at around £12k. I think that one of the problems with auto/dsg etc gearboxes is that they date badly. Newer, quicker, updated versions make the earlier ones feel very old and clunky.
A nice manual gearbox will never date. In fact, an older more 'mechanical' feel adds to the attraction for many.
TonyHetherington said:
You have to remember that car manufacturers aren't ceasing manuals out of spite. It's what the market demands. What they lose in (minimal) sales, they save in development and options costs.
exactly...since the 355F1, exactly how many 360/430/458's have been brought without flappy- paddles?
I like the looks of it, obviously a supercar but not having to shout about it too much. It seems the performance figures back that up, it just does what it needs to and a bit more.
It is British too which obviously I love the idea of as a Brit, but the one thing which impresses me is that so far I haven't seen anything about how quickly it will lap the ring. Hopefully McLaren are happy to ignore that statistic that everyone else seems to be chasing - it is pretty irrelevant in many ways, but seems to be the holy grail for too many. Bet it is quick round there though!
It is British too which obviously I love the idea of as a Brit, but the one thing which impresses me is that so far I haven't seen anything about how quickly it will lap the ring. Hopefully McLaren are happy to ignore that statistic that everyone else seems to be chasing - it is pretty irrelevant in many ways, but seems to be the holy grail for too many. Bet it is quick round there though!
TonyHetherington said:
You have to remember that car manufacturers aren't ceasing manuals out of spite. It's what the market demands.
I don't have any knowledge about marketing and all that bumf so may be barking up the wrong tree, but do people really WANT these fancy gearboxes or is it because they are TOLD that they want/need them?
The new Mclaren looks like a great car to me. Subtlety, efficiency and good engineering (both ergonomic inside, and mechanical/electronic elsewhere, is something I really enjoy seeing. From what I can see this car seem dynamically about 30% better than the 458, but it looks about 50% less obvious. For me, that's a really good thing - nothing worse than an "arrogant" car. 
As for the gearbox discussion, I was firmly in the manual gearbox camp until I tried a DSG box in an M3, and I have to say now that if I was speccing a car like the 458 or Mclaren, I'd want the DSG box. Changing gear manually is satisfying, but I find it even more satisfying to concentrate on the more interesting, enjoyable and relevant task of braking and turning in to corners, and also as I accelerate out of corners not to lose momentum as I just flick a paddle to change gear. It's the lack of delay that does it for me - DSG is almost instantaneous, whereas most of the old systems had a time delay where you weren't doing anything, which was infuriating for many people - gaps in drive are fine, as long as you're involved in the process of selecting the next gear - waiting was annoying. I love DSG is all I'm trying to say
As for the gearbox discussion, I was firmly in the manual gearbox camp until I tried a DSG box in an M3, and I have to say now that if I was speccing a car like the 458 or Mclaren, I'd want the DSG box. Changing gear manually is satisfying, but I find it even more satisfying to concentrate on the more interesting, enjoyable and relevant task of braking and turning in to corners, and also as I accelerate out of corners not to lose momentum as I just flick a paddle to change gear. It's the lack of delay that does it for me - DSG is almost instantaneous, whereas most of the old systems had a time delay where you weren't doing anything, which was infuriating for many people - gaps in drive are fine, as long as you're involved in the process of selecting the next gear - waiting was annoying. I love DSG is all I'm trying to say
Whippy is spot on about these cars being for fun not for setting lap times - I prefer manuals too. But McLaren is an F1 racing company and building something as low tech as a manual gearbox goes against the grain. Plus there's the inescapable truth is that the people with the money to buy these things don't want a manual and might not even be able to drive one!
Besides, according to McLaren there's another reason why they don't offer a manual: to make the pedal box big enough to accommodate space for a dead pedal and a clutch pedal they would have had to make the car wider, and therefore heavier. They already spent something like £200k on a bespoke super-slim HVAC system to keep the width down.
Besides, according to McLaren there's another reason why they don't offer a manual: to make the pedal box big enough to accommodate space for a dead pedal and a clutch pedal they would have had to make the car wider, and therefore heavier. They already spent something like £200k on a bespoke super-slim HVAC system to keep the width down.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff