RE: Driven: Porsche Cayman R
Discussion
RobM77 said:
I already have done. Thanks to my job I've driven the vast majority of mundane family cars and sub £30k repmobiles made from 2000 up to around 2006/2007, and then from personal experience have driven many 80s and 90s cars. The outright grip and suspension capabilities of the older cars is less, but the lower CofG and rollcentre means they're far more stable. The lower mass is also easier to contain with cheap dampers.
There are exceptions, as I've (and others have) already stated - such as the latest Golf, Audi A4/A5 and BMW. The average Renault, Ford, Peugeot or Vauxhall though is as I've described above.
In an emergency situation I'd rather have grip and a capable suspension.. this to me makes a car more stable..with a people carrier I think the CofG might be a factor but with a normal hatchback/Saloon I don't think the CofG is such a factor...maybe because your a skilled driver you would be better able to deal with an older car, but for me and all the other average drivers I think being in a modern car would help you avoid an accident.There are exceptions, as I've (and others have) already stated - such as the latest Golf, Audi A4/A5 and BMW. The average Renault, Ford, Peugeot or Vauxhall though is as I've described above.
Dagnut said:
havoc said:
Really?
I'd say the opposite:-
...
Probably worded that wrong, it took a more skilled driver to drive an older car quickly...I don't agree with the comparisons about older cars being better to drive..look how good the Mondeo is now..the Focus compared with the Escort..the average car now is much better to push on..the ride bumps better, grip better.. drive even navigating snow in a Mk1 GolfI'd say the opposite:-
...
I'd also suggest that driver ability is dropping, as people don't think about their cars now as anything but white goods.
30 years ago your "average driver" could deal with oversteer in an ordinary rwd car.
Today your "average driver" won't have a clue how to deal with it in a fwd car (in which it's easier to recover from).
kambites said:
Dagnut said:
...but for me and all the other average drivers I think being in a modern car would help you avoid an accident.
To be honest that probably has more to do with the computers driving the car, than the suspension setup. Turn the ESP off on a modern turbo hot-hatch and it'll bonfire its tyres under enthusiastic throttle. Try that in a 306GTi or an older 205GTi (even on period tyres) and they'll mostly accelerate just fine. To me that shows a lack of engineering and an overreliance on computers.
havoc said:
Dagnut said:
havoc said:
Really?
I'd say the opposite:-
...
Probably worded that wrong, it took a more skilled driver to drive an older car quickly...I don't agree with the comparisons about older cars being better to drive..look how good the Mondeo is now..the Focus compared with the Escort..the average car now is much better to push on..the ride bumps better, grip better.. drive even navigating snow in a Mk1 GolfI'd say the opposite:-
...
I'd also suggest that driver ability is dropping, as people don't think about their cars now as anything but white goods.
30 years ago your "average driver" could deal with oversteer in an ordinary rwd car.
Today your "average driver" won't have a clue how to deal with it in a fwd car (in which it's easier to recover from).
kambites said:
Dagnut said:
...but for me and all the other average drivers I think being in a modern car would help you avoid an accident.
To be honest that probably has more to do with the computers driving the car, than the suspension setup. Turn the ESP off on a modern turbo hot-hatch and it'll bonfire its tyres under enthusiastic throttle. Try that in a 306GTi or an older 205GTi (even on period tyres) and they'll mostly accelerate just fine. To me that shows a lack of engineering and an overreliance on computers.
Would totally agree driving standards have dropped due to cars being easier to drive.
As far as ESP goes thats another issue we where talking about quick direction changes to avoid an accident or hazard..spinning the tyres is purely down to torque as most HH's now are FI with 250bhp +..that's pretty obvious.
I didn't make comparisons with performance cars of the day, because for hot hatch's the 90's was pretty much the era , 160bhp in a hatch weighing 1100kg with and LSD and no driver aids is probably the perfect recipe.
WEll many die-hards here will be happy to see that Citroen apparently DOES care about this issue; as such they remove the electric steering in their ds3 and put in a totally hydraulic one..good on them....at least we know it is possible to do...
Heres the link...
http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2010/07/citroen-revea...
Heres the link...
http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2010/07/citroen-revea...
j123 said:
WEll many die-hards here will be happy to see that Citroen apparently DOES care about this issue; as such they remove the electric steering in their ds3 and put in a totally hydraulic one..good on them....at least we know it is possible to do...
Heres the link...
http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2010/07/citroen-revea...
BMW did the same thing with the Z4M. The Z4 Coupé 3.0si had ePAS, and the Z4M has hydraulic PAS.Heres the link...
http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2010/07/citroen-revea...
RobM77 said:
BMW did the same thing with the Z4M. The Z4 Coupé 3.0si had ePAS, and the Z4M has hydraulic PAS.
Rob I wonder what BMW and Citroen actually had to technically do to make the changes? Anyway...This is weird people on here care but at the same time they dont. Its like many enthusiasts would gladly have great steering on their new car, but if its not offered will be fine without it, or indeed if the whole car is one big blob of a heavy undefinable soulless mess; well they'll be fine without that as well. I've come to the conclusion that people are more apathetic now than ever. Not much one can do in the face of those odds.
Rock and Roll is dead and so are new usable enthusiast cars. Vintage (not Vantage!) is all we have now. j
Edited by j123 on Monday 28th March 17:08
j123 said:
Rob I wonder what BMW and Citroen actually had to technically do to make the changes? Anyway...
This is weird people on here care but at the same time they dont. Its like many enthusiasts would gladly have great steering on their new car, but if its not offered will be fine without it, or indeed if the whole car is one big blob of a heavy undefinable soulless mess; well they'll be fine without that as well. I've come to the conclusion that people are more apathetic now than ever. Not much one can do in the face of those odds.
Rock and Roll is dead and so are new usable enthusiast cars. Vintage (not Vantage!) is all we have now. j
I don't think it's apathy, it's just people's requirements. A friend of mine at work has had a Scirocco for a week as a courtesy car whilst her TT's been in for work, and I she hates it. She likes cars, so I asked her why, and we got talking about the car. Everything that formed her opinion of the car was to do with the styling, and nothing about the driving. In fact she looked completely confused when I asked how it drove (said just like that "how's it drive? nice?", and whether it felt more sporty than a Golf. She had no idea what I meant by "how does it drive". I then broke the silence by asking her if the TT felt more sporty, and she started talking at length about the seats and how they were "sporty". At the end of the day, most people couldn't care a less about steering feel, handling or anything like that.This is weird people on here care but at the same time they dont. Its like many enthusiasts would gladly have great steering on their new car, but if its not offered will be fine without it, or indeed if the whole car is one big blob of a heavy undefinable soulless mess; well they'll be fine without that as well. I've come to the conclusion that people are more apathetic now than ever. Not much one can do in the face of those odds.
Rock and Roll is dead and so are new usable enthusiast cars. Vintage (not Vantage!) is all we have now. j
Edited by j123 on Monday 28th March 17:08
RobM77 said:
I don't think it's apathy, it's just people's requirements. A friend of mine at work has had a Scirocco for a week as a courtesy car whilst her TT's been in for work, and I she hates it. She likes cars, so I asked her why, and we got talking about the car. Everything that formed her opinion of the car was to do with the styling, and nothing about the driving. In fact she looked completely confused when I asked how it drove (said just like that "how's it drive? nice?", and whether it felt more sporty than a Golf. She had no idea what I meant by "how does it drive". I then broke the silence by asking her if the TT felt more sporty, and she started talking at length about the seats and how they were "sporty". At the end of the day, most people couldn't care a less about steering feel, handling or anything like that.
Obviously I disagree. Tell that to the thousand and thousands of M car owners, and all sorts of sporty Peugeot, Renault, VW, Lancia, Alfa, Ford, Porsche owners. These people all either know now (have older cars) or did know how great these cars drive and do not and will not ever forget what it is to drive a tactile car that connects them to the road and makes driving fun. Simple as that. But if you basically totally take away the cars and as the original 80's/90's owners age up, the next generation (that would be this generation) never become further and further away from ever even knowing what these old blokes are on about. People usually take what they are given, whats convenient, what is known. These cars of which we speak are mostly vaporware at this point, a faint-ish memory for men over 40 and into their 70's. Except if you talk about certain middle east nations, its safe to say that "austerity" programs though bitterly not liked will be swallowed by most western countries (including the US) like most everything else, like cars. J
RobM77 said:
I don't think it's apathy, it's just people's requirements. A friend of mine at work has had a Scirocco for a week as a courtesy car whilst her TT's been in for work, and I she hates it. She likes cars, so I asked her why, and we got talking about the car. Everything that formed her opinion of the car was to do with the styling, and nothing about the driving. In fact she looked completely confused when I asked how it drove (said just like that "how's it drive? nice?", and whether it felt more sporty than a Golf. She had no idea what I meant by "how does it drive". I then broke the silence by asking her if the TT felt more sporty, and she started talking at length about the seats and how they were "sporty". At the end of the day, most people couldn't care a less about steering feel, handling or anything like that.
So true, it applies right across the consumer spectrum..we live in a world were people are prepared to sleep over night to be the first to own and iPad2.ALways Caboose and Rob and me theorizing away on these topics. Big ups to you guys as conceptual thinkers are rarer than crops in Africa- a sad thing indeed.
"Whether you like it or not, such people are a tiny niche."
Not going to accept that answer sir. Those people were not a niche, like I said before, there were literally many tens if not hundreds of thousands who were able to sense the qualities we speak of here and enjoy them in their cars everyday! I speak to people all the time who long for the joys of their old gti, 325i, or 911; no this was not a niche by a long shot. What happened was that these people aged out and most hardly have the energy let alone the authority to sit around convincing makers to build X types of cars. And soon a new generation came up driving what-ever it was the Japanese and Germans were serving.
So the idea of "niche" is being misused here, but used it should be. By NOW it is a 'niche' audience that could care less about, or even be old enough, to remember these forgotten capabilities cars our fathers cars loved so much.
The irony here is that if during the first Golf Gti revolution if VW would have taken away the steering and adjustability of that car overnight, there would have been an outcry by both the owners and journalists of the day, and the vw would have reverted back the sharper settings. All this really DID matter, when it was popular and so many thousands were in daily use and being enjoyed.
I believe there will be a future for fun and tactile cars again, however it will come when fabrication reaches the capacity to custom build cars to personal spec- of course with the legislation's, it can be done. j
"Whether you like it or not, such people are a tiny niche."
Not going to accept that answer sir. Those people were not a niche, like I said before, there were literally many tens if not hundreds of thousands who were able to sense the qualities we speak of here and enjoy them in their cars everyday! I speak to people all the time who long for the joys of their old gti, 325i, or 911; no this was not a niche by a long shot. What happened was that these people aged out and most hardly have the energy let alone the authority to sit around convincing makers to build X types of cars. And soon a new generation came up driving what-ever it was the Japanese and Germans were serving.
So the idea of "niche" is being misused here, but used it should be. By NOW it is a 'niche' audience that could care less about, or even be old enough, to remember these forgotten capabilities cars our fathers cars loved so much.
The irony here is that if during the first Golf Gti revolution if VW would have taken away the steering and adjustability of that car overnight, there would have been an outcry by both the owners and journalists of the day, and the vw would have reverted back the sharper settings. All this really DID matter, when it was popular and so many thousands were in daily use and being enjoyed.
I believe there will be a future for fun and tactile cars again, however it will come when fabrication reaches the capacity to custom build cars to personal spec- of course with the legislation's, it can be done. j
Edited by j123 on Tuesday 29th March 09:00
j123 said:
The irony here is that if during the first Golf Gti revolution if VW would have taken away the steering and adjustability of that car overnight, there would have been an outcry by both the owners and journalists of the day, and the vw would have reverted back the sharper settings.
VW did in 1992 when they launch the mk3. The steering was awful and the 'Gti' a laggardly slug. The VR6 'superGolf' on OE suspension wasn't much better. There was an outcry in the press and enthusiast community which was compleletly ignored; the mk4 was a much better car overall especially the engine and interior, but no better to drive. Even the 'mk5', heralded as the 'return of the Gti' wasn't that great a driving car, as a recent spin I had in a tatty old mk2 16v reminded me.In sum? The great gmass of drivers don't give much priority to feedback and response.
SS7
I've always assumed that cars used to be good to drive by accident, rather than design. The Peugeot 205 for instance was a humble basic hatchback, but it had brakes firm enough to provide a fulcrum for heel and toe, decent steering feel, and an excellent ride. The same was broadly true of the aforementioned mk1 and mk2 Golfs, even the ordinary non-GTi models. Much of the ride and handling being worse these days is down to safety (which brings weight) and fashion (which brings massive wheels); although as I said before, damping and chassis technology has come on, I don't think it's worked enough against the tide of weight and big wheels, unless you're looking at something with really decent damping, like a GTi model.
What people really want in a car these days is something quiet, with peaceful steering that doesn't move about, really 'responsive' brakes, good grip, and safe. Lately, we can add to that a 'commanding' driving position. Those requirements are perfectly summised by the average modern car.
Personally, my perfect car seats me behind the wheel, not above it; has brakes firm enough for decent heel/toe and progressive operation, good steering feel and great ride & handling with a low centre of gravity. For a four seater car that takes my bike and kayaks, BMW get the closest to this if specced on standard wheels and with a diesel engine (or M3 V8 - everything else has a delay). Most other modern cars I've driven of this size and spec are utterly dreadful!
What people really want in a car these days is something quiet, with peaceful steering that doesn't move about, really 'responsive' brakes, good grip, and safe. Lately, we can add to that a 'commanding' driving position. Those requirements are perfectly summised by the average modern car.
Personally, my perfect car seats me behind the wheel, not above it; has brakes firm enough for decent heel/toe and progressive operation, good steering feel and great ride & handling with a low centre of gravity. For a four seater car that takes my bike and kayaks, BMW get the closest to this if specced on standard wheels and with a diesel engine (or M3 V8 - everything else has a delay). Most other modern cars I've driven of this size and spec are utterly dreadful!
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You're quite right, and many cars didn't have pedals aligned well for heel and toe, although with the brake firm enough, I managed to move my feet sufficiently in most cars to H&T - I'd rather that than the stupid over-sensitive brakes that a lot of modern cars have.The whole brake situation was summed up by a member of Atomic Kitten who drove a 911 on Fifth Gear (and famously crashed a 355!). She said that the brakes were really poor in the 911.. As we all know, Porsche brakes are fantastic, but they have a decent weighting, and I'm sure it was this weighting that made her think they were rubbish, because they needed a decent push to get them to respond. Caterham and Elise forums are full of threads about the "poor brakes" - same reason.
chris7676 said:
Off topic for the last few pages...
Such is the nature of any thread on PH 
Remember how this started though; some people (me included) believe that the Cayman has suffered too much from what the average buyer of a car wants and this modern progression towards less feedback and involvement in cars. Yes, I know when any of us say this, Cayman owners get extremely defensive and start quoting car magazine reviews, which is fair enough and it's their right to do so. However, it's also my right to say that the two Cayman Ss I drove lacked steering feel, had laggy throttles and had a general lack a feeling of feedback and involvement. Typically for Porsche, the brakes were amazing, the steering deliciously accurate, the handling utterly sublime and the car was beautifully balanced. However, I do feel it could do with a bit more feel to the way it drives. It feels like Porsche have been having lessons from Audi, whereas I wish they'd be influenced more by Lotus. I'm not into loud rattly cars, and Porsche are so close to making my ideal car if only they could sort out these areas. Sadly, I doubt they will, and the reason why is what we've been discussing for the last few pages - it's not what most people want.shoestring7 said:
VW did in 1992 when they launch the mk3. The steering was awful and the 'Gti' a laggardly slug. The VR6 'superGolf' on OE suspension wasn't much better. There was an outcry in the press and enthusiast community which was compleletly ignored; the mk4 was a much better car overall especially the engine and interior, but no better to drive. Even the 'mk5', heralded as the 'return of the Gti' wasn't that great a driving car, as a recent spin I had in a tatty old mk2 16v reminded me.
In sum? The great gmass of drivers don't give much priority to feedback and response.
SS7
Completely disagree. Problem with your argument: the mk3 was a completely changed platform to the mark 1 and 2 golfs. To drive one was to drive something wholly different, an entirely different car to the originals. As tuners of the 90's proved (much as they tried) no one could modify the Golf mk3 into a drivers car in the vain we discuss here. So customers had no other choice but to keep buying what the Germans gave them if they wanted the famous build quality they had learned to love so much- agreed the reliability was not there. In sum? The great gmass of drivers don't give much priority to feedback and response.
SS7
If there is no good choice as I believe the death of the VW gti, various Audi's and BMW's ushered in the 90's, people will slowly forget and move on. Over time people simply accept.
As to Rob's thoughts on the Cayman and steering feel, just wait until the new cayman and 911 platform comes on line soon, they will both have fully electric steering with even less feel. I think that many 911 owners will indeed protest but again its an issue of it being too late.
Indeed this is a serious issue; the final loss of feel from all Porsche's. Feel now will become the mostly the sole province of Lotus. I wonder how Lotus will deal with this. j
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