RE: Driven: Porsche Cayman R
Discussion
SFO said:
wait for the next generation Cayman (988 or more likely 981) ...
Definitely. As I speak I'm sat in my study next to a classic Porsche Nurburgring poster, a few Porsche books on my bookshelf, and my backdrop is a 911... I like Porsches, I'm just waiting for one that I enjoy driving 
RobM77 said:
yes: Definitely. As I speak I'm sat in my study next to a classic Porsche Nurburgring poster, a few Porsche books on my bookshelf, and my backdrop is a 911... I like Porsches, I'm just waiting for one that I enjoy driving
Rob, your perception of the Cayman shortcomings is really interesting actually but you're quite difficult to please, maybe because you're in a microscopic minority of people who clearly understand performance cars and how they should be driven. I would hazard a guess that 95% of Porsche drivers don't know what a linear steering rack is, let alone how to hold a steering wheel properly.What you're saying echoes my slight disappointment about the way my 987 steers compared to my previous 2.5 986 with M030. I guess the rack is the culprit here too but maybe also those stupidly over-sized 19 wheels. I am amazed that Porsche have tinkered with the steering at all, which at least on a 986 M030, was simply telepathic in its ability to almost pre-empt the driver's inputs. I still love the car for what it supplies at under £15K but still, something that was there before is now slightly lacking...
nickfrog said:
RobM77 said:
yes: Definitely. As I speak I'm sat in my study next to a classic Porsche Nurburgring poster, a few Porsche books on my bookshelf, and my backdrop is a 911... I like Porsches, I'm just waiting for one that I enjoy driving
Rob, your perception of the Cayman shortcomings is really interesting actually but you're quite difficult to please, maybe because you're in a microscopic minority of people who clearly understand performance cars and how they should be driven. I would hazard a guess that 95% of Porsche drivers don't know what a linear steering rack is, let alone how to hold a steering wheel properly.What you're saying echoes my slight disappointment about the way my 987 steers compared to my previous 2.5 986 with M030. I guess the rack is the culprit here too but maybe also those stupidly over-sized 19 wheels. I am amazed that Porsche have tinkered with the steering at all, which at least on a 986 M030, was simply telepathic in its ability to almost pre-empt the driver's inputs. I still love the car for what it supplies at under £15K but still, something that was there before is now slightly lacking...
Your comments about the 987 vs 986 M030 are very interesting by the way, thanks.
shoestring7 said:
RobM77 said:
I like Porsches, I'm just waiting for one that I enjoy driving
Hmmmm 
SS7
It's the engineering and capabilities of the car plus the attitude of the company that I like. I also love their history, and love learning about the old 917, 956 etc (I grew up watching the 956 and 962 racing in the 80s). Sadly, the only Porsches I've driven properly have been the two Cayman Ss, which dissapointed me for the reasons detailed above. I remain keen though 
HAB said:
Rob - When you test drove the Cayman, how did you find the steering and throttle response ?
Just curious.
Just curious.
Not sure if you're winding me up or serious
The steering response was actually fantastic - such a smooth, delicate, sharp and responsive rack (just as all the journos say), it's just that non linear aspect I can't stand - it's just a personal thing. The throttle response was poor, comparable to a BMW 330i, or something like that. Nowhere near as good as M3 though and not as bad as a 135i. Again, probably a personal thing. If you can get round those too things (oh, and have short legs and long arms), it's an extremely good car.
RobM77 said:
The Cayman and 911 racks are mechanically non linear - the teeth on the rack get closer together once you get to 30 degrees of steering input. This means that if you take a few bends at 20 degrees and learn the rack, when you take a tighter corner that you think will need 60 degrees of lock, you find you've steered too much by about 10-15 degrees. My mind can't cope with that. Those are all example figures by the way, but they're close. I've tried the Mercedes system and it's far more logical - the ratio switches at 10 degrees, so virtually all the proper corners you take are using the same rack ratio, which you can then learn. The Porsche effectively has two rack ratios - one for fast bends and one for slow bends, but the division isn't obvious. Steering is such a raw element of car control that it's a cardinal sin to mess with it! The throttle lag peed me off as well - both Cayman Ss that I drove did it. I like to end on a positive though, and that's the brakes - they offer the best progression, weighting and feel that I've tried on any car ever.
I guess the thing for me is that £50k is a lot of money, so I want a car costing that high proportion of my salary to be near perfect. For many Cayman owners it's just another car, like as if I was going to spend £20k on a new MX5 (not that I would, but you see my point). The truth is I probably wouldn't buy an Evora, because again it's not perfect. I'm expecting the new line of Lotuses will improve further, so have my eye on one of those instead, and in the meantime I will be keeping my eye on Porsche - I'd dearly love to own one one day as I respect the company so much.
Rob has a fixed mind and can't cope with non-linearity... You should contact Walter and discuss with him. I guess the thing for me is that £50k is a lot of money, so I want a car costing that high proportion of my salary to be near perfect. For many Cayman owners it's just another car, like as if I was going to spend £20k on a new MX5 (not that I would, but you see my point). The truth is I probably wouldn't buy an Evora, because again it's not perfect. I'm expecting the new line of Lotuses will improve further, so have my eye on one of those instead, and in the meantime I will be keeping my eye on Porsche - I'd dearly love to own one one day as I respect the company so much.
Interesting article in this month's Car - essentially they want a Cayman, but with Evora ride and handling and warn of an impending Evora facelift. Cayman S over an Evora S.... Backtracking now from the initial reviews and bemoaning the Evora V6...
Personally wrt the R, I'd spec a standard Cayman S with LSD (trading a little on corner entry satisfaction for a lot on exit), Buckets and PASM, but have more comfort than an R. Now if it were an RS....
RobM77 said:
I don't think I have a fixed mind, I'm just a pre-emptive steerer rather than a reactive steerer. Walter is a rally driver, so it's no surprise he's the latter.donna180 said:
RobM77 said:
I don't think I have a fixed mind, I'm just a pre-emptive steerer rather than a reactive steerer. Walter is a rally driver, so it's no surprise he's the latter.RobM77 said:
The Cayman and 911 racks are mechanically non linear - the teeth on the rack get closer together once you get to 30 degrees of steering input. This means that if you take a few bends at 20 degrees and learn the rack, when you take a tighter corner that you think will need 60 degrees of lock, you find you've steered too much by about 10-15 degrees. My mind can't cope with that. Those are all example figures by the way, but they're close. I've tried the Mercedes system and it's far more logical - the ratio switches at 10 degrees, so virtually all the proper corners you take are using the same rack ratio, which you can then learn. The Porsche effectively has two rack ratios - one for fast bends and one for slow bends, but the division isn't obvious. Steering is such a raw element of car control that it's a cardinal sin to mess with it! The throttle lag peed me off as well - both Cayman Ss that I drove did it. I like to end on a positive though, and that's the brakes - they offer the best progression, weighting and feel that I've tried on any car ever.
I guess the thing for me is that £50k is a lot of money, so I want a car costing that high proportion of my salary to be near perfect. For many Cayman owners it's just another car, like as if I was going to spend £20k on a new MX5 (not that I would, but you see my point). The truth is I probably wouldn't buy an Evora, because again it's not perfect. I'm expecting the new line of Lotuses will improve further, so have my eye on one of those instead, and in the meantime I will be keeping my eye on Porsche - I'd dearly love to own one one day as I respect the company so much.
Understood. I personally didn't feel that oddness at all but each of us feel different things/adjust in different waysI guess the thing for me is that £50k is a lot of money, so I want a car costing that high proportion of my salary to be near perfect. For many Cayman owners it's just another car, like as if I was going to spend £20k on a new MX5 (not that I would, but you see my point). The truth is I probably wouldn't buy an Evora, because again it's not perfect. I'm expecting the new line of Lotuses will improve further, so have my eye on one of those instead, and in the meantime I will be keeping my eye on Porsche - I'd dearly love to own one one day as I respect the company so much.
RobM77 said:
Perhaps, yes. My brain never adapted! It's quite an advanced skill, to be able to roll on exactly the right amount of lock at turn in if there's a step change in the rack gearing! I don't think I'd ever bea good enough driver to do that.
Surely it's just a matter of getting used to how much turn to put on? regardless of whether you are a reactive or pre-emptive steerer..I don't see how this is a problem that Porsche drivers have to overcome or that it suits either style.Dagnut said:
RobM77 said:
Perhaps, yes. My brain never adapted! It's quite an advanced skill, to be able to roll on exactly the right amount of lock at turn in if there's a step change in the rack gearing! I don't think I'd ever bea good enough driver to do that.
Surely it's just a matter of getting used to how much turn to put on? regardless of whether you are a reactive or pre-emptive steerer..I don't see how this is a problem that Porsche drivers have to overcome or that it suits either style.RobM77 said:
Dagnut said:
RobM77 said:
Perhaps, yes. My brain never adapted! It's quite an advanced skill, to be able to roll on exactly the right amount of lock at turn in if there's a step change in the rack gearing! I don't think I'd ever bea good enough driver to do that.
Surely it's just a matter of getting used to how much turn to put on? regardless of whether you are a reactive or pre-emptive steerer..I don't see how this is a problem that Porsche drivers have to overcome or that it suits either style.juansolo said:
donna180 said:
Interesting article in this month's Car - essentially they want a Cayman, but with Evora ride and handling
Hey, that's my line. Still would gladly pay good money to someone who could pull that off with mine. The two cars are coming at the same problem from different angles. The Cayman has the luxury of a bespoke engine giving an extremely low centre of gravity, and every component designed from scratch to work together. The Evora, on the other hand has a tall engine mounted high up and borrows that plus other components. Porsche have taken their ideal underpinnings and scored a B grade when engineering them, and Lotus have taken compromised underpinnings and score an A+ with distinction for the way they've engineered them. Just imagine if Lotus had a big enough budget to do what Porsche do?
The trouble is that if Lotus had that big a budget to spend on developing a car then they'd be selling in volume, and therefore satisfying the motorway living businessman as well as the bumpy B road enthusiast. Ergo, the car would have to become diluted to get the sales. It might be a no win situation.
RobM77 said:
The Cayman has the luxury of a bespoke engine giving an extremely low centre of gravity, and every component designed from scratch to work together. The Evora, on the other hand has a tall engine mounted high up and borrows that plus other components. Porsche have taken their ideal underpinnings and scored a B grade when engineering them, and Lotus have taken compromised underpinnings and score an A+ with distinction for the way they've engineered them.
How on earth do you come to these conclusions? If history has taught us anything about Lotus road cars, it's that often they're not very well engineered at all. Engineered as in fit for purpose - drivetrain, durability, build quality, reliability, ease of use. You could also argue that good engineering doesn't involve buying in an engine, then developing a chassis around it (or vice versa).
It takes more than nice steering and a well balanced handling/ride ratio, (which Lotus has always done well) to start proclaiming 'A+ with distinction' engineering.
I tried an Evora last year, got a decent drive on decent roads, and I though overall it was good, but not up to the lauding it got from the UK press.
Fun to drive, comfortable and fairly refined, but the gearchange was pretty awful, the engine felt ordinary, and the build quality was sub-standard given its price imo. Also for me the styling just doesn't work, at all.
BTW, I wouldn't have a Cayman either, but not for any of the reasons I wouldn't have an Evora (well, apart from the styling). A lot of modern pork leaves me utterly cold, but I can accept that they're well-rounded, thoroughly developed cars that are a very good ownership prospect, in a way that Lotus aren't.
All in my opinion.
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