RE: Driven: Porsche Cayman R

[RobM77]

HAB said:

RobM77 said:

The Cayman has the luxury of a bespoke engine giving an extremely low centre of gravity, and every component designed from scratch to work together. The Evora, on the other hand has a tall engine mounted high up and borrows that plus other components. Porsche have taken their ideal underpinnings and scored a B grade when engineering them, and Lotus have taken compromised underpinnings and score an A+ with distinction for the way they've engineered them.

How on earth do you come to these conclusions?

If history has taught us anything about Lotus road cars, it's that often they're not very well engineered at all. Engineered as in fit for purpose - drivetrain, durability, build quality, reliability, ease of use. You could also argue that good engineering doesn't involve buying in an engine, then developing a chassis around it (or vice versa).

It takes more than nice steering and a well balanced handling/ride ratio, (which Lotus has always done well) to start proclaiming 'A+ with distinction' engineering.


I tried an Evora last year, got a decent drive on decent roads, and I though overall it was good, but not up to the lauding it got from the UK press.

Fun to drive, comfortable and fairly refined, but the gearchange was pretty awful, the engine felt ordinary, and the build quality was sub-standard given its price imo. Also for me the styling just doesn't work, at all.

BTW, I wouldn't have a Cayman either, but not for any of the reasons I wouldn't have an Evora (well, apart from the styling). A lot of modern pork leaves me utterly cold, but I can accept that they're well-rounded, thoroughly developed cars that are a very good ownership prospect, in a way that Lotus aren't.

All in my opinion.

I agree with you entirely, and I think maybe I wasn't clear enough in my post. I meant "ride and handling engineering". Lotus have a good history of taking ordinary bits and doing something inspired with them. The reason the Elise was so good was that they did this, but added a fantastically engineered core extruded ali chassis as well. Porsche, on the other hand, design and engineer things better from the ground up, but I've never felt they can hone these parts as well in terms of ride and handling and the way their cars drive as Lotus do.

[Raitzi]

I think you can spec up cayman to turn more like evora and R8 by taking car to a tuning shop with porsche racing experience. I have heard that increasing camber helps a lot to reduce understeer with cayman. R has more camber in fron and rear and i think you can also increase it more with stock setup compared to S or the base model. (S maxes somewhere aroun 0.9 degrees)Cayman S won motortrend handling award even though it understeered more that R8 which came 2nd.

I respect lotus for making car that does not understeer. But they should really lower the price and try to get one dealer or repair shop to most capitals in Europe. I heard that their strategy however will be to increase prices and recude number of shops. I would be interested in lotus if gearbox was better and they had a dealer or at least repair shop in Helsinki area in Finland.

[RobM77]

Raitzi said:

I think you can spec up cayman to turn more like evora and R8 by taking car to a tuning shop with porsche racing experience. I have heard that increasing camber helps a lot to reduce understeer with cayman. R has more camber in fron and rear and i think you can also increase it more with stock setup compared to S or the base model. (S maxes somewhere aroun 0.9 degrees)Cayman S won motortrend handling award even though it understeered more that R8 which came 2nd.

I respect lotus for making car that does not understeer. But they should really lower the price and try to get one dealer or repair shop to most capitals in Europe. I heard that their strategy however will be to increase prices and recude number of shops. I would be interested in lotus if gearbox was better and they had a dealer or at least repair shop in Helsinki area in Finland.

I actually love the handling on the Cayman, it's just the feedback and controls that dissapointed me.

[Porscheplayer]

RobM77 said:

Raitzi said:

I think you can spec up cayman to turn more like evora and R8 by taking car to a tuning shop with porsche racing experience. I have heard that increasing camber helps a lot to reduce understeer with cayman. R has more camber in fron and rear and i think you can also increase it more with stock setup compared to S or the base model. (S maxes somewhere aroun 0.9 degrees)Cayman S won motortrend handling award even though it understeered more that R8 which came 2nd.

I respect lotus for making car that does not understeer. But they should really lower the price and try to get one dealer or repair shop to most capitals in Europe. I heard that their strategy however will be to increase prices and recude number of shops. I would be interested in lotus if gearbox was better and they had a dealer or at least repair shop in Helsinki area in Finland.

I actually love the handling on the Cayman, it's just the feedback and controls that dissapointed me.

I know what you mean but I think you've lost most people. You are picky though, but I agree when spending 50K+ you have a right to be. It's pretty easy to pick faults with most cars, I haven't driven one yet I thought was perfect. I can live with 'Porsche faults' more than others because the rest of the package is pretty good.

Regards

[donna180]

Rob just get Manthey racing to switch steering racks and be done with it, and stick with 18s/PS2s....

The Evora is so frustrating though - the best and worst of Lotus in one hit: probably unmatched power steering, handling, ride (the ride is astonishing coupled with the control the car has) and brakes (really impressive), great seats and the rest is crap including the styling.

[kambites]

donna180 said:

Rob just get Manthey racing to switch steering racks and be done with it, and stick with 18s/PS2s....

The Evora is so frustrating though - the best and worst of Lotus in one hit: probably unmatched power steering, handling, ride (the ride is astonishing coupled with the control the car has) and brakes (really impressive), great seats and the rest is crap including the styling.

That's the really annoying thing about both Lotus and Porsche, to me. They both produce cars that really excel in most areas that I value in a car, but neither seems to be capable of producing a car without at least one flaw that significantly puts me off buying it. With Porsche it's the steering (although that's the first time I've heard that someone does a linear rack for the Cayman, I'll have to investigate that further); with Lotus it's the attention to detail in the design and build (with the exception of the suspension and primary controls).

Both the Cayman and the Evora are quite ugly to my eye, but that wouldn't put me off buying either if they didn't have other issues.



Mind you, both cars are streets ahead of anything else in their market.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 17th March 21:38

[Raitzi]

Seems a lot of people would like to see car like the 2002 NSX-R. Too bad Honda do not make that kinds of cars anymore and I think they actually never sold LHD-version in Europe.

[havoc]

Raitzi said:

Seems a lot of people would like to see car like the 2002 NSX-R. Too bad Honda do not make that kinds of cars anymore and I think they actually never sold LHD-version in Europe.

In reality the NA2 NSX-R is too stiff and uncompromising, and if you believe some people actually slightly flawed itself.

TBH the standard NA2 NSX is about on a par in terms of grip/handling/performance with the Evora and Cayman S, and the (JDM only) Type-S has the extra stiffness and focus to match the Cayman R*. IMHO the steering is the only weakness - otherwise it's got the engineering purity of the Porsche (and then some, IMHO) and the handling finesse of the Lotus.

Shame it's been out of production for 5 years, really...



* Most people who've driven standard, Type-S and Type-R (NA1 or 2) suggest that the stock car has the best ride for 'general driving' in the UK and the Type-S has the best ride for 'committed driving' in the UK.

[RobM77]

kambites said:

donna180 said:

Rob just get Manthey racing to switch steering racks and be done with it, and stick with 18s/PS2s....

The Evora is so frustrating though - the best and worst of Lotus in one hit: probably unmatched power steering, handling, ride (the ride is astonishing coupled with the control the car has) and brakes (really impressive), great seats and the rest is crap including the styling.

That's the really annoying thing about both Lotus and Porsche, to me. They both produce cars that really excel in most areas that I value in a car, but neither seems to be capable of producing a car without at least one flaw that significantly puts me off buying it. With Porsche it's the steering (although that's the first time I've heard that someone does a linear rack for the Cayman, I'll have to investigate that further); with Lotus it's the attention to detail in the design and build (with the exception of the suspension and primary controls).

Both the Cayman and the Evora are quite ugly to my eye, but that wouldn't put me off buying either if they didn't have other issues.



Mind you, both cars are streets ahead of anything else in their market.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 17th March 21:38

Do Manthay really do a proper steering rack for the Cayman? I haven't phoned them, but I did make some fairly thorough enquiries about it with other Porsche specialists and drew a blank. The throttle lag's still there though, and the wheel needs another two inches of reach adjustment. Annoying - cause it's otherwise perfect!

[Raitzi]

Cayman R (PDK) clocks an amazing time of 1:12.40 in Hockenheim Short. Car was driven by "Sport Auto" magazine. So Cayman R was faster than F430, V8 R8,carrera GTS, etc... First porsche that was faster than cayman R is 09' turbo in Hockenheim Short.

Check full list of laptimes here : http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/hockenheim_short...

[HAB]

Lap times are all very well, but what about the throttle lag and that damned steering rack?

[kambites]

Raitzi said:

Cayman R (PDK) clocks an amazing time of 1:12.40 in Hockenheim Short. Car was driven by "Sport Auto" magazine. So Cayman R was faster than F430, V8 R8,carrera GTS, etc... First porsche that was faster than cayman R is 09' turbo in Hockenheim Short.

Check full list of laptimes here : http://www.fastestlaps.com/tracks/hockenheim_short...

Useful to know if you're buying one as a racing car. I doubt that's their main target market though.

[kambites]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Actually you may well be right about that. Extra bragging rights, I suppose.

[havoc]

kambites said:

Actually you may well be right about that. Extra chiropracty bills, I suppose.

EFA


Never understood why road cars are getting stiffer and stiffer while roads are getting worse and worse...

[HAB]

Because most markets don't have third world roads.

[kambites]

HAB said:

Because most markets don't have third world roads.

I'd imagine the majority of Porsches are bought in countries with significantly worse roads than ours.

ETA: Actually maybe not because the US is such a big market.

[havoc]

HAB said:

Because most markets don't have third world roads.

Half of Europe does.

Half of the US and Canada either has concrete (with expansion joints) or crumbling roads like us.

In my experience it's only Germany and the better-invested parts of Spain/France/Italy that have decent tarmac. And Japan*.



* No jokes, please.

[HAB]

?

Like I said, most major markets (mature not emerging) don't have roads in as poor repair as the UK.

[havoc]

Have you driven in Belgium? Or in parts of Italy?

How about Canada or the USA?

I have...and your statement is invalid - their roads ARE as bad as ours, either through potholes or through expansion joints. Belgium is worse...unbelievably poor.

[Hawmaws]

havoc said:

Have you driven in Belgium? Or in parts of Italy?

How about Canada or the USA?

I have...and your statement is invalid - their roads ARE as bad as ours, either through potholes or through expansion joints. Belgium is worse...unbelievably poor.

I agree. I do a trip to Holland a few times a year and you can tell where the border is just by the condition of the road.

Doesn't stop the locals driving at warp speeds, mind!