4000 mile old air filter...
Discussion
This was one of the main reasons I left the motor trade after 13 years working in various dealerships. People are too quick to tar every main dealer with the same brush and view them all in a negative light on the back of one bad experience or worse, one bad experience for Allan, your sister's next door neighbours cousin. Whilst I will fully admit there are more than a few bad apples out there, on the other hand there are some dealers that will go above and beyond time and time again. Just a shame we as a nation are happier complaining than complimenting.
One of the biggest issues for mainstream cars these days is that the industry dictates that services are as far apart as possible and as quick as possible. When I first started, cars were generally 1yr/10k intervals with all filters being replaced every second service. Then Toyota went to 2yrs/20k and many followed suit and than came flexible servicing... we were getting cars in once every 2yrs/30,000 miles and even then it was literally in and out. Put it this way, my current car states that the oil and filter be changed every 3,000 miles yet job forward 10 years and the same basic engine was up to 10,000 miles and now, again same basic engine and it's every 20,000 miles. Same oil grade, same filter, same basic engine.
On that note, I replaced my turbo at 150,000 miles... modern day counterparts are getting turbos at as little as 40,000 miles.
The only way to be certain is do it yourself or find a dealer who goes that extra mile for you.
One of the biggest issues for mainstream cars these days is that the industry dictates that services are as far apart as possible and as quick as possible. When I first started, cars were generally 1yr/10k intervals with all filters being replaced every second service. Then Toyota went to 2yrs/20k and many followed suit and than came flexible servicing... we were getting cars in once every 2yrs/30,000 miles and even then it was literally in and out. Put it this way, my current car states that the oil and filter be changed every 3,000 miles yet job forward 10 years and the same basic engine was up to 10,000 miles and now, again same basic engine and it's every 20,000 miles. Same oil grade, same filter, same basic engine.
On that note, I replaced my turbo at 150,000 miles... modern day counterparts are getting turbos at as little as 40,000 miles.
The only way to be certain is do it yourself or find a dealer who goes that extra mile for you.
E53 X5 Air filters are quite labour intensive if you havent done one before,and the usual change interval is 40k or every 2nd insp2 from what I have seen but really it should be done every 20k miles.
Recent BMW service books have the airfilter listed so the mechanic can tick the box,but the only way is to check it phisically.
Recent BMW service books have the airfilter listed so the mechanic can tick the box,but the only way is to check it phisically.
A lex said:
I had a mis-fire back in November on my Jeep heap.
Supposed to be full SH up to about 100k and then self serviced by previous owners to 150k. Came with a receipt for sparkplug change at about 10k miles before I bought it.
The engine is a straight 6 and plug no.1 is blcoked in by the alternator and various hoses and belts. Ill have that one out me thinks!
Had to use two universal joints on my sockets and lots and lots of swear words, but still had it out within 15mins - plug looked about as old as the car itself and was quite clearly buggered.
Pulled plug 2&3 as a check and they were fine.
New plug in cyl 1 and its been running fine since.
Lazy bloody mechanics!
Big problem with that, is you can't charge 45 mins labour to change sparkplugs. So if they do it, they're loosing out on labour and ramp space, especially as most places do servicing at a fixed labour cost. If they don't, then they're not out of pocket.Supposed to be full SH up to about 100k and then self serviced by previous owners to 150k. Came with a receipt for sparkplug change at about 10k miles before I bought it.
The engine is a straight 6 and plug no.1 is blcoked in by the alternator and various hoses and belts. Ill have that one out me thinks!
Had to use two universal joints on my sockets and lots and lots of swear words, but still had it out within 15mins - plug looked about as old as the car itself and was quite clearly buggered.
Pulled plug 2&3 as a check and they were fine.
New plug in cyl 1 and its been running fine since.
Lazy bloody mechanics!
It's not right, but then I guess most people would be shocked to see themselves being charged 45 minutes labour to change spark plugs and complain.
It's swings and roundabouts.
maniac0796 said:
It's swings and roundabouts.
MX5 MK1 1st services used to take 1.8 hours to do and cost £250-£300 depending on labour.MX5 MK3 1st service takes 0.9 hours to do and costs £150 (Labour dependent).
Lots of stuff comes out of the service schedules and you've the big men above you telling you you're not doing them quickly enough, you don't miss stuff out, or atleast at our place I know for a fact we don't.. I wouldn't want anything missed on my car so it's not going to happen on a customers car. I do give the customer the option for us to only remove the air filter and hoover out if its still in good condition or if its not good enough to replace it, which saves £20 or so but other than that theres not much else you can do to make the services cheaper, and people still complain about the cost.
A certain very well known BMW dealer in the region I live:
1)an older relative of mine with too much time on his hands always bought brand new from this dealers and kept up a full BMW History every year at the same dealers despite only doing about 5000 miles a year. He got suspicious that they weren't doing all they should during a service, so when it was due 'a big one' he read what items would be changed/adjusted/checked during that service, spent a couple of hours under/in the car carefully marking service items with tipp-ex and tiny blobs of superglue on the edge of nuts that should have been removed/refitted during the service.
Guess what.... after the service he discovered and photographed all the items they hadn't even touched - about 60% of the bits that should have been changed.
He went back in with his photos and went ballistic, the service manager and dealer principle went white with horror at obviously being 'busted', they offered a free service and all sorts.
2)Friend with a 330i went to have his service done at same dealers, and when paying the rather hefty bill at the end he noticed he had been charged for a paper panel air filter. He then asked if this was correct, and was assured it was. He then asked the service manager to come and have a look at his car with him, and then showed him the large ITG foam filter under the bonnet. The service manager looked dreadfully embarrassed, then went on the offensive and blamed the 'stupid girl on the desk' for incorrectly charging him and then basically laid some blame at my mates feet for 'having an air filter like that'.
Utterly disgusting, and a regular occurrence it seems.
Try that sort of thing in any other industry and you would be in court for theft or fraud, rather than it being shrugged off as a 'mistake'.
1)an older relative of mine with too much time on his hands always bought brand new from this dealers and kept up a full BMW History every year at the same dealers despite only doing about 5000 miles a year. He got suspicious that they weren't doing all they should during a service, so when it was due 'a big one' he read what items would be changed/adjusted/checked during that service, spent a couple of hours under/in the car carefully marking service items with tipp-ex and tiny blobs of superglue on the edge of nuts that should have been removed/refitted during the service.
Guess what.... after the service he discovered and photographed all the items they hadn't even touched - about 60% of the bits that should have been changed.
He went back in with his photos and went ballistic, the service manager and dealer principle went white with horror at obviously being 'busted', they offered a free service and all sorts.
2)Friend with a 330i went to have his service done at same dealers, and when paying the rather hefty bill at the end he noticed he had been charged for a paper panel air filter. He then asked if this was correct, and was assured it was. He then asked the service manager to come and have a look at his car with him, and then showed him the large ITG foam filter under the bonnet. The service manager looked dreadfully embarrassed, then went on the offensive and blamed the 'stupid girl on the desk' for incorrectly charging him and then basically laid some blame at my mates feet for 'having an air filter like that'.
Utterly disgusting, and a regular occurrence it seems.
Try that sort of thing in any other industry and you would be in court for theft or fraud, rather than it being shrugged off as a 'mistake'.
WeirdNeville said:
They rely on the fact that 90% of their customers don't know, and probably 80% don't even care.
Sexist comment, I know, but I've recent had run-ins at 2 Mitsubishi dealers, a Mercedes dealer and a SEAT dealer, and the common factor was the "service advisor" was a dippy girl. They're just not geared up to answer customer questions.Honourable exception to the above was a Honda dealership - desk staffed by a couple of bright young lads.
There are a few general garages around here, but they've all got issues, and I suppose it seems easier to deal with a corporate as shouting at them is a bit less personal.
irodger said:
A mate just sent me a pic of the air filter he removed after getting his brother in law to look over his recently bought X5. It's got FBMWSH and was last stamped around 4k miles ago. The filter change was meant to be part of this service.
Looks to me like its never been changed. Think you get a good service just because it's a main dealer? I certainly don't.
I would not have that filtering air on my car, nay lawn mower!!!! Even if it is (crazy paralel world) 4000 miles old, i would suggest a 1000 mile air filter change. That has done untold damage to your engine.Looks to me like its never been changed. Think you get a good service just because it's a main dealer? I certainly don't.
After being charged by a certain main dealer many years ago for a full major service (and stamped accordingly/items ticked in the book) then finding just an oil change was done, I go over stuff with a fine toothcomb... I've been known since to mark service parts like filters to make sure they're replaced. .
Pollen filters with bits of dead bird and air filters such as here should not exist straight after a service when they're service items. I suspect a lot of the general public get pumped regularly.
Pollen filters with bits of dead bird and air filters such as here should not exist straight after a service when they're service items. I suspect a lot of the general public get pumped regularly.
GingerWizard said:
irodger said:
A mate just sent me a pic of the air filter he removed after getting his brother in law to look over his recently bought X5. It's got FBMWSH and was last stamped around 4k miles ago. The filter change was meant to be part of this service.
Looks to me like its never been changed. Think you get a good service just because it's a main dealer? I certainly don't.
I would not have that filtering air on my car, nay lawn mower!!!! Even if it is (crazy paralel world) 4000 miles old, i would suggest a 1000 mile air filter change. That has done untold damage to your engine.Looks to me like its never been changed. Think you get a good service just because it's a main dealer? I certainly don't.
). The important bit is that the filter has stopped all that crap getting into the engine. You can buy a cheap gauze filter off ebay and it'll be ages before it looks dirty enough to warrant cleaning, but only because it's so coarse it doesn't actually filter any of the crap being sucked into your engine...I operate vehicles that need the air filter cleaning every 10 hours, and will have collected over 1kg of fine dust in that time. Does that mean untold damage is being done to the £20k engine?
Whilst that filter may look neglected, as long as it isn't restricting flow or allowing fine particles to pass through (neither of which you can tell from looking at a small blurry photo), it is still doing it's job perfectly well. It's part of a noisy smelly engine- it's not supposed to look pretty!
Wether or not the garage replaced it as they said is open to debate, but either way I very much doubt any harm has been done to the car.
I have 3 good friends all into VWs who are all mechanics, one is a Saab master tech at 22, and is meticulous, one is Renault & Landrover trained, and again is very good; But the guy I use the most has no formal qualifications, has spent 15 years working for tickford, prodrive and the like, is happy to have me help work on my cars, is always right (seriously, he challenges me to find fault/try another method) and knows what he is doing, he had just started his own garage but it bit the bullet when the bank pulled the rug out mid 2008, so now works in a backstreet garage.
I ALWAYS reccomend people try to find a good garage, talk to other petrolheads for advice and good locals.
I ALWAYS reccomend people try to find a good garage, talk to other petrolheads for advice and good locals.
One other thing to bear in mind, alot of service schedules state items such as pollen filters, brake fluid changes, brake cleans, cambelts and so on as service add on and thus, in many cases aren't automatically included especially in these days of flex servicing. It's up to the service receptionist/advisor/whoever to advise you that these items are recommended at certain intervals... but it also complicates matters too as many front of house service staff simply don't know or care. I've had to step in countless times when a member of staff has chirpily told the customer "Yes, Mr Smith, full service and we've..." Woah woah woah!! But then that's down to the individual and ultimately the dealership to provide training. But then if some don't bother changing service parts, do you really think they'll bother training their staff correctly.
irodger said:
A mate just sent me a pic of the air filter he removed after getting his brother in law to look over his recently bought X5. It's got FBMWSH and was last stamped around 4k miles ago. The filter change was meant to be part of this service.
Looks to me like its never been changed. Think you get a good service just because it's a main dealer? I certainly don't.
Same here, I own a E60 530D M sport, was cleaning my car and lifted the bonnet to check oil and washer fluids and whilst there checked on the condition of the air filter, there is a inspection window on the side, the car has a FBMWSH and was serviced approx 4k miles ago, air filter was supposed to be changed and a tick in the box on the service books also states the same.Looks to me like its never been changed. Think you get a good service just because it's a main dealer? I certainly don't.
Heres my picture:
Old Vs New!
needless to say I complained to BMW and they offered me a free service and appologised profusely (SP?) Oh and I changed the air filter myself a PITA it was too!
Alfa GTV said:
Same here, I own a E60 530D M sport, was cleaning my car and lifted the bonnet to check oil and washer fluids and whilst there checked on the condition of the air filter, there is a inspection window on the side, the car has a FBMWSH and was serviced approx 4k miles ago, air filter was supposed to be changed and a tick in the box on the service books also states the same.
Heres my picture:
Old Vs New!
needless to say I complained to BMW and they offered me a free service and appologised profusely (SP?) Oh and I changed the air filter myself a PITA it was too!
Whilst BMW have clearly admitted fault here, I'd be interested to see what the new filter looks like after 4,000 miles. Heres my picture:
Old Vs New!
needless to say I complained to BMW and they offered me a free service and appologised profusely (SP?) Oh and I changed the air filter myself a PITA it was too!
Main dealer Experiences:
Ford with a 12month old KA dropped off for service 0800am
slot was booked for 1100am, returned at 1600 to collect
car sat where I parked it, their excuse: they were busy
and would do it whilst I waited, 1700 car arrives at the front
service book stamped etc, I drove home.On arrival had a quick look under the bonnet to see oil running from the rocker cover down the front of the engine
where it had been poured in by someone with limited vision, white grease sprayed liberally on every hinge/lock.
so not dreadful.
LandRover
Defender, returned as heated screen not working, replacement ordered and fitted, on collection dash top ruined by a screwdriver or some such lever used to free the old screen rubber, complained, new dash top ordered and fitted at another visit.
Freelander, constant ABS/HDC lights on, they replaced ABS sensor, discs and pads. a month or two later same lights appear, car booked in and dropped off.
I get a call after an hour or so telling me the car needs new front discs
with a quote for the parts, I quiz them as to the discs being needed after such a short time, they advise they will call me back when car ready.
Some hours later when I go to collect the service advisor tells me the discs actually were not required (surprise surprise) and asks if we tend to brake a lot! I kid you not.. I replied yes every time I wish to slow down
and ask here to get the manager, she leaves red faced, he arrives makes plenty of excuses says they have fixed the fault, I leave vowing not to return. on the journey home the lights come on again.
in the next few months I trade the car in for the Defender mentioned above.
Mercedes
Slk 3years old take to dealer for service A
collect freshly washed car, book stamped two hours late but I didn't mind
waiting. got home popped bonnet to see front engine cover flapping
lift it up to see both clips underneath busted!
I call Dealer they ask for a picture, I duly send one.
after a few days a new cover arrives, they offer to fit or send it to me.
I asked them to send it on.
My experiences have been mostly Bad all in the South west.
Audi dealer:
Asked for a test drive of a 57plate RS4, trade plates collected from showroom and thrown into rear parcel shelf and on to dash
I start to drive to be told new bakes recently fitted all round
I leave the dealership heading the a dual carriageway a loud knocking is heard, the sales man says oh they will be a under tray or something and to carry on after a few more hundred yards same/worse noise heard he then asks
me to turn back, on arrival he says "so what do you think " I replied not much after 1/4 of a mile and a worrying noise.
ok he says calls over another salesman they get in a drive off.(hopefully not too far)
Finally I went to BMW dealer to look at a used 320D they had only one
I wanted to see the 123D coupe whilst there, after 10mns in dealer show room standing around as sales people walked by
I was asked eventually by a parts man if I needed help.
when I inquired about the cars on sale I was told stock is low
and they are too busy to do test drives, the 320D on show was nearly sold.
so I should leave them a number so they could call when something came in.
not would I like to test something else, I do not want/expect people to fall over to help me but crud service goes a long way to me going elsewhere.
Ford with a 12month old KA dropped off for service 0800am
slot was booked for 1100am, returned at 1600 to collect
car sat where I parked it, their excuse: they were busy
and would do it whilst I waited, 1700 car arrives at the front
service book stamped etc, I drove home.On arrival had a quick look under the bonnet to see oil running from the rocker cover down the front of the engine
where it had been poured in by someone with limited vision, white grease sprayed liberally on every hinge/lock.
so not dreadful.
LandRover
Defender, returned as heated screen not working, replacement ordered and fitted, on collection dash top ruined by a screwdriver or some such lever used to free the old screen rubber, complained, new dash top ordered and fitted at another visit.
Freelander, constant ABS/HDC lights on, they replaced ABS sensor, discs and pads. a month or two later same lights appear, car booked in and dropped off.
I get a call after an hour or so telling me the car needs new front discs
with a quote for the parts, I quiz them as to the discs being needed after such a short time, they advise they will call me back when car ready.
Some hours later when I go to collect the service advisor tells me the discs actually were not required (surprise surprise) and asks if we tend to brake a lot! I kid you not.. I replied yes every time I wish to slow down
and ask here to get the manager, she leaves red faced, he arrives makes plenty of excuses says they have fixed the fault, I leave vowing not to return. on the journey home the lights come on again.
in the next few months I trade the car in for the Defender mentioned above.
Mercedes
Slk 3years old take to dealer for service A
collect freshly washed car, book stamped two hours late but I didn't mind
waiting. got home popped bonnet to see front engine cover flapping
lift it up to see both clips underneath busted!
I call Dealer they ask for a picture, I duly send one.
after a few days a new cover arrives, they offer to fit or send it to me.
I asked them to send it on.
My experiences have been mostly Bad all in the South west.
Audi dealer:
Asked for a test drive of a 57plate RS4, trade plates collected from showroom and thrown into rear parcel shelf and on to dash
I start to drive to be told new bakes recently fitted all round
I leave the dealership heading the a dual carriageway a loud knocking is heard, the sales man says oh they will be a under tray or something and to carry on after a few more hundred yards same/worse noise heard he then asks
me to turn back, on arrival he says "so what do you think " I replied not much after 1/4 of a mile and a worrying noise.
ok he says calls over another salesman they get in a drive off.(hopefully not too far)
Finally I went to BMW dealer to look at a used 320D they had only one
I wanted to see the 123D coupe whilst there, after 10mns in dealer show room standing around as sales people walked by
I was asked eventually by a parts man if I needed help.
when I inquired about the cars on sale I was told stock is low
and they are too busy to do test drives, the 320D on show was nearly sold.
so I should leave them a number so they could call when something came in.
not would I like to test something else, I do not want/expect people to fall over to help me but crud service goes a long way to me going elsewhere.
busta said:
Alfa GTV said:
Same here, I own a E60 530D M sport, was cleaning my car and lifted the bonnet to check oil and washer fluids and whilst there checked on the condition of the air filter, there is a inspection window on the side, the car has a FBMWSH and was serviced approx 4k miles ago, air filter was supposed to be changed and a tick in the box on the service books also states the same.
Heres my picture:
Old Vs New!
needless to say I complained to BMW and they offered me a free service and appologised profusely (SP?) Oh and I changed the air filter myself a PITA it was too!
Whilst BMW have clearly admitted fault here, I'd be interested to see what the new filter looks like after 4,000 miles. Heres my picture:
Old Vs New!
needless to say I complained to BMW and they offered me a free service and appologised profusely (SP?) Oh and I changed the air filter myself a PITA it was too!
Just saw this thread. This doesn't fill me with confidence that my beautiful BMW M3 CS and BMW E46 323Ci Coupe have been serviced correctly by BMW Dealers.
The CS has 35k FBMWSH
The 323Ci has 150k FBMWSH. Needed a new engine @125k
Now the dealer thinks i need a new diff @150k
Also service intervals of 15k as recommended by BMW cannot be doing any good.
Air filter is Inspection II service item so realistically every 40k miles!!!! Too long IMO. On 323 diff oil is "for life"
The CS has 35k FBMWSH
The 323Ci has 150k FBMWSH. Needed a new engine @125k
Now the dealer thinks i need a new diff @150k
Also service intervals of 15k as recommended by BMW cannot be doing any good.
Air filter is Inspection II service item so realistically every 40k miles!!!! Too long IMO. On 323 diff oil is "for life"
Rick101 said:
Shameful behaviour.
Changing an air filter is probably one of the simplest and quickest parts of a service. It's a pity you have you check up on people for such a basic thing.
It's a pain in the arse on a diesel E39 5 series and likely anything else using the same engine.Changing an air filter is probably one of the simplest and quickest parts of a service. It's a pity you have you check up on people for such a basic thing.
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