Saab gone?

[Petemate]

bakerstreet said:

Just been looking through the classifieds and it does appear that I have lost at least £1000 off the value of my car

There weren't any that had my exact spec (SatNav + CD Changer), but I don't think they will add much, especially considering the recent news of bankrupcy.

I'm fairly gutted if I'm honest. I've thrown a lot of money at it it this year and I know that it has a big service bill coming up. The clucth and flywheel have been done, but at 133k, I'm expecting the turbo will pack up in the near future. Suppose that will be in excess of £500 to fix.

I think I may have lost a bit more than that.... Bought the Sportwagon 150 Tid Apr last year £9500 at 51k miles. Now done 89K; worth a LOT less now, but worth lots to me as a very usable commuter car. Not spent any money other than servicing on it, but of course there may be big bills looming. Seen some for half of what I paid with less miles on! But I DO like the car, and will keep it as long as I can get the bits for it.

[Dr Banjo]

Blimey,

I had no idea that the China have the current 93 and old 95 in production.

Have a look here http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2010/04/china-baw-red...

I need a drink after seeing that ...

[saaby93]

9-5 here

http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2010/04/baw-chinese-s...

[Dr Banjo]

The 95 just needs a tweak with the grill and it would look ok.

http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2010/04/china-made-sa...

Bonkers

[10 Pence Short]

I would have thought GMs first and most important moral and legal duty would be to its own shareholders and employees. Seeming the company nearly went pop not too long ago and is heavily indebted to the US people, I doubt they'd see 'doing the right thing' as selling their IP to the Chinese to further competition against them and keep a few Swedes in Abba records for a short time.

If mistakes were made it was in allowing SAAB to be sold to a guy totally lacking in both credibility and funding. Obviously the situation at GM at the time was so dire that selling off was the priority and who to was secondary. In any case, you can hardly blame a company for ruining SAAB when they built it from something that would have died long ago to its best ever year in 2006.

In fact I'm really not sure what justification anyone would have in blaming GM for poor product (and blaming that for any demise), when the reality seems to be SAAB would never have lasted so long without them and the GM funded product was the most successful in SAAB history.

[aeropilot]

saaby93 said:

If anything can be resurrected in Trondheim

Trondheim is in Norway......

[skwdenyer]

10 Pence Short said:

If mistakes were made it was in allowing SAAB to be sold to a guy totally lacking in both credibility and funding. Obviously the situation at GM at the time was so dire that selling off was the priority and who to was secondary.

You might want to re-read the post I put up above and, in particular, that part dealing with GM's sales process. GM went out of their way to turn down bids from very viable bidders long before Muller came onto the scene.

[Dr Banjo]

None of this really surprises us.

GM were never going to let it survive as it was not in their interest. They held all the aces in the pack.

Doesn't really matter whether GM acted with good moral judgement or as crazed insecure shareholder sentiment junkies.. whats done is done.

Cant believe we thought VM could pull off a deal. There was never any outs.

Perhaps whats left of the SAAB DNA in Trollhattan will find a new home. The manufacturing side is screwed.

[skwdenyer]

Dr Banjo said:

None of this really surprises us.

GM were never going to let it survive as it was not in their interest. They held all the aces in the pack.

Doesn't really matter whether GM acted with good moral judgement or as crazed insecure shareholder sentiment junkies.. whats done is done.

Cant believe we thought VM could pull off a deal. There was never any outs.

Perhaps whats left of the SAAB DNA in Trollhattan will find a new home. The manufacturing side is screwed.

Sadly I suspect you're right. VM's biggest failures seem to have been that (a) he expected other people to behave reasonably, and (b) he expected other people to honour contracts. On both counts he was wrong, and upon those rocks have foundered the hopes of many.

[Pistachio]

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-12-21/gm-to-...
This is why they don't want SAAB in China. In europe GM wanted Cadillac to be a BMW type of car, which it obviously is not.
GM have always thought that cadillac is more what people want. Well they are wrong Cadillac is an awful brand.
GM still think that Cadillac is like an american MB or RR for china and a BMW for Europe….!!!

I think it stinks this SAAB stuff it really does…I hope the GM execs will have a lovely Christmas whilst those in Trollhatten are toughing it out…

[Twincam16]

Pistachio said:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-12-21/gm-to-...
This is why they don't want SAAB in China. In europe GM wanted Cadillac to be a BMW type of car, which it obviously is not.
GM have always thought that cadillac is more what people want. Well they are wrong Cadillac is an awful brand.
GM still think that Cadillac is like an american MB or RR for china and a BMW for Europe….!!!

I think it stinks this SAAB stuff it really does…I hope the GM execs will have a lovely Christmas whilst those in Trollhatten are toughing it out…

I don't think it's Cadillac so much as Buick. Buick is seen as a sort-of American BMW, and given that the Regal is a rebadged top-end Vauxhall Insignia (and they're not at all bad to drive, especially with 4WD), which in turn is also what the Saab 9-5 is based on, and they're selling masses of Buicks in China, then they'd be handing the opposition a rival to one of their most successful cars on a plate, and if they could price it lower and word got out you could get a 9-5 for less than a Regal (and it was the same car), Buick would suffer badly.

However, I don't think Saab is completely dead. I don't think it'll survive in the form we know, but I wouldn't be surprised if a Chinese firm looking to make headway in Europe, possibly in a more 'budget' class, used Trollhatten as a design and engineering facility to make cars for Europe, and grafted the Saab nose on the front.

[confused_buyer]

Twincam16 said:

However, I don't think Saab is completely dead. I don't think it'll survive in the form we know, but I wouldn't be surprised if a Chinese firm looking to make headway in Europe, possibly in a more 'budget' class, used Trollhatten as a design and engineering facility to make cars for Europe, and grafted the Saab nose on the front.

My gut feeling is that Saab probably is dead but some of the Trollhatten facility may survive as an R&D centre and possible European production base for another company. GM actually spent a lot of money on the place and the facilities and production line are very good.

[KaraK]

The brand itself might not be completely dead.. I know Saab AB have said that the name would revert back to them in the event of Saab Automobile being liquidated but there is nothing to stop them re-licensing it out to another company if they chose is there? Hell if they wanted to they could start an automobile arm themselves again.

[Monkeylegend]

skwdenyer said:

Contrast that with BMW's behaviour with MG Rover: they essentially gave away the company, threw in £500m (the shutdown costs they would have paid) as a 'dowry', and didn't restrict management from using the technology in the vehicles. That was fair and reasonable; sadly the P4/5 cocked it up, but that's another story.

A small price to pay for the Mini brand.

[Dr Interceptor]

Twincam16 said:

However, I don't think Saab is completely dead. I don't think it'll survive in the form we know, but I wouldn't be surprised if a Chinese firm looking to make headway in Europe, possibly in a more 'budget' class, used Trollhatten as a design and engineering facility to make cars for Europe, and grafted the Saab nose on the front.

Perhaps if they called it 'BAAS' it'd still look correct in the rear view mirror

[Petemate]

Dr Interceptor said:

Perhaps if they called it 'BAAS' it'd still look correct in the rear view mirror

(I would have entered a ROFL but considered that would be disrespectful for all employees related to the Saab brand.....)

[The Hypno-Toad]

The Oxford Paperback Dictionary said:

aghast adj filled with horror or shock.

Indulge me a little, I'll be back to that.

Well I guess I better finish what in a way I started.

I hope that no one here thinks that today I'm happy about this. Thats the very last thing on my mind. As I sit here typing this, my friends are sitting in a showroom as the estate agents are wandering around measuring and typing their reports on their Ipads. What the future holds for them is an unknown. This is a terrible tragedy especially this close to Christmas and its not just a Swedish or UK thing, its worldwide. This isn't an MG Rover, this is a major issue to do with vehicle over-production on a global scale.

I'm not going to go through the final endgame, its all up there. I think as soon GM finally confirmed on Saturday that they had the power not to approve any deal if it included Youngman in any shape or form, we all knew that Muller had called double or quits one last time. And that was before we were informed of Rachel Pangs "critical illness" that was going to stop her flying over for Mullers day in front of the court. Most of us knew that it was going to end but I for one felt that it was going to go to appeal after the Re-Organisation hearing which would have probably meant that it would have dragged on to February.
What I think is important is how this has all reflected on the principal players.

The People of Trollhatten: Its going to be very tough but without wanting to sound incredibly patronising they will get through it. If the rumours are true and Subaru are lining up to buy the empty factory then jobs in the automotive sector could return very promptly.

Hemfosa Fastigheter: Know anyone who wants to buy a car factory?

The Swedish Government: Was this what they always wanted? Very difficult to tell. Obviously in the current climate, they were never going to be able to bail out the company with actual cash but their lack of any kind of support, for instance possibly having a chat with the Chinese government, in the protacted negoitations was disgusting. But wait thats not true, they did help in October when they tried to help Lofalk sell the whole lot to Geely. In fact if Mr Borg had turned up at the meeting arranged by Loflak, there is a good chance that deal might have gone through and Muller would have been out. Its almost like they didn't want Saab to succeed with Muller at the helm. Why was that?

Guy Lofalk: One very relieved man. Thanks to GM taking the fall as the bad guy he can now count his money and slink back into anonymity. I think if Muller had been able to do his Perry Mason in court bit, Lofalk would have been painted as the man who killed Saab and judging by the hated generated on the Saab fan sites before the hearing had even convened that could have been a very nasty role to fulfill.

Valdimir Antonov: I think he has far more important things to worry about right now than the fate of Saab. Possibly staying out of a pair of concrete shoes is probably one of them.

Spyker: Who knows? And does anyone now actually care?

GM: Happy days for them. The thorn in their side which has been Saab has now gone and they have been spared the expense of the full endgame of closing the company & taking all the blame for them. Yelling at them on their facebook page is like an ant trying to bite an elephant. They don't care if a bunch of Saab fans say they will never buy a GM product again, they've protected their own interests and thats what is important. What a lot of the Saab fans forgot is that's its not a game and the car trade is not a charity. Its not personal, its just business. Don't discuss, don't review, onto the next one, hope it all comes good in the end. (or at least until you can find a better executive job.). They are the bad guys and they aren't, they just doing what was best for GM.

Youngman: Maybe the winners, maybe the bad guys. Rachel Pang, having recovered in remarkably quick time from her critical illness is now being quoted as saying that she is looking forward to purchasing the remains of Saab from the recievers. I bet she is. What needs to be seen is the rest of that document that appeared 10 days ago which appeared to suggest that finally some money had been paid into Swedish Automobile Cooperatief U.A. for the rights to the PhoeniX platform. This was the funding that was used by Muller to pay off the tax bill that he was personally liable for. It really would be a bit of deal for Youngman if they had got hold of an entire new vehicle modular platform for 2.2 million euros. (especially when they were orignally offered it for 70 million.). If they are the biggest creditor (and will find that out later.) I'm guessing that they will take the production line and the rights to current 9-3 thank you very much. The production line will fit very nicely into the empty factory they already have in country and the 9-3 will probably become the Youngman Something or Other. Who knows maybe the Youngman Gryphon?
The big question now is that were they deliberatly screwing with Muller, especially in the last couple of months? Who knows? But maybe the nearly deal with Geely had made scars that even the soothing words of Victor couldn't heal. I'm sure the "I told the Chinese the 100% deal would never fly," and "Why do the Chinese keep pumping money into the black hole that is Saab," comments made just as Muller was enjoying that pre-flight G&T probably didn't go down to well either.

I feel like I'm forgetting someone????

Oh yes.

Victor Muller. Angel? Fool? or Demon?
All three I think.
Angel?: Whatever else he is, no one works a room of angry creditors like him. How he managed to persude people to let Saab carry on through the last nine months is beyond me. Ok they wanted to be persuded but he could quite literally sell ice to eskimos. It never ceased to amaze me how he managed to time and time again pull rabbits out of a hat. A salesman extraordinare. Bravo.

Fool?: Not such a good businessman though. Either he should never been allowed to buy Saab in the first place as he had nowhere near the funding or he did an appalling job checking the small print. Once the snowball started to role, getting involved with 'companies' like NSC & EAG did his credability within the industry no good at all & most observers considered even talking about these people as the possible saviours of Saab, made him look foolish and desperate. The constant leaks of last minute 'deals' just before the wages were due were equally as bad. His claims now of five companies wanting to pick over the bones only raises the question, why weren't you talking to them instead of the Chinese?

Demon?: Case unproven. We're going to have to wait on that one.

So what happens now? (all MHO)
1.) Youngman will probably end up in court with GM over the rights to the PhoeniX platform. They will possibly take the current 9-3 and its production line instead. Maybe that's what they wanted all the time?
2.) Antonov will have difficulty talking his way out of jail, if he even makes it there.
3.) GM will sail on like nothing has happened and maybe with the PhoeniX platform for good measure.
4.) Spyker? Who knows? Maybe Muller? Maybe CPP? Maybe even Mr Six-Pack and NSC? And who knows maybe they will have the PhoeniX platform?
5.) The good people of Trollhatten? Hopefully Subaru will buy the factory and a skilled employment base of automotive workers won't be lost.

And finally;
6.) Muller. It all depends on what the bankruptcy accountants find doesn't it? If he isn't a demon in disguise, he will sail off into the sunset with his Curaco bank account, his yellow Rolls-Royce and possibly even Spyker. As I have always said Mr Muller was never going to come out of this a pauper. He will join the ranks of Simon Gillet and John Towers as businessmen who promised big and yet everyone except the true believers could see were never going to succeed in delivering anything in the long term (except perhaps funds to their own bank accounts?)
Unless of course, Antonov is as dodgy as everyone thinks he is and the accountants find some link to prove Muller knew that Vladmirs funding was shall we say "iffy". Then Mr Muller might be on a plane to examine that Curaco bank account permanantly.

But we have forgotten one last player; SAAB AB
The aircraft company own the rights to the name & can withdraw the rights to the brand. After all of this sideshow over the last nine months, does anyone really think they are going to let any company soil that brand any further?
No chance. And without that brand, what is left of the company is only worth the tools, the spares and the unbuilt cars. Which as I mentioned is possibly all that the Chinese wanted in the first place.

Oh and aghast? That was the comment made by the representatives of HawTai Motor Company after they had toured the factory back in May when they were thinking of putting a deal together with Muller. That is not a word you normally hear in business negoiations and should have been a major warning sign that the jig was up.
Perhaps someone should have had the sense to pull the plug then and we would have spared the events of the last six months. Back then the financial situation was possibly a bit better and the staff around the world who had depended on Saab for a living might been able to start again. Now, the motor industry is looking forward into the abyss which will be 2012. Most people I talk to in the industry will believe it could possibly be the worst for a very long time and events over at Renault this week seem to confirm that.
And remember, its now happened. A major brand has gone & in the general scheme of things caused bearly a ripple. Now the big manufacturers will be thinking

"That wasn't so bad, who can we get rid of now?"

Who indeed?

As I have mentioned this will still have further developments as the bankruptcy runs on but Saab as we all knew it is dead. If the car survives they will no longer be called Saabs and that is the greatest pity of all.

Toad out.

Thanks gwadlpus, The Crack Fox, Kara K, aeropilot, groomi, Pistachio, confused buyer, AndrewW-G and Petemate for all your contributions and support (plus anyone else I forgot). And thanks too skwdenyer. We may not have always agreed but at least we disagreed in a civilised way.

Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Wednesday 21st December 15:26

[rovermorris999]

So who's in the custard?

[The Hypno-Toad]

I wasn't going to mention that as it seemed too flippant.

But if anyone has sladealives address, my friend runs a catering business and I'm sure we can oblige....

Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Wednesday 21st December 15:34

[Alfa numeric]

The Hypno-Toad said:

A great post

Thanks for making the rollercoaster that the last year has been an interesting read.

As a postscript:

Wikipedia said:

Making up nearly 35% of those sales, China is Buick's largest market, selling more there than even the United States.

Wikipedia said:

Buick Regal (nee Opel Insignia) sales in China in 2009: 79,930
Saab's total world production in 2008 (ie before all this kicked off) was 90,281 vehicles produced in 3 countries.

And that bare statistic was what, in the end, put paid to a great Swedish innovator.