Discussion
Interesting. The numbers I'd heard about were that YM had so far put in around €60m to Saab/SWAN, which compares with IIRC €70m as the stated price for the non-exclusive licence from the SPV.
In addition, they own 50% of Swedish Saab Autombile Development AB, but it isn't clear what is 'in' that company, other than it being owed money by Saab Automobile AB.
As I've said before, what isn't clear from the various information I can find includes:
In addition, they own 50% of Swedish Saab Autombile Development AB, but it isn't clear what is 'in' that company, other than it being owed money by Saab Automobile AB.
As I've said before, what isn't clear from the various information I can find includes:
- does the SPV own a non-exclusive licence which in turn has been licenced non-exclusively to YM, in which case is that an asset of SWAN's (as owners of the SPV IIRC)?
- have YM somewhere chipped-in a few more million (in cash, equity, debt forgiveness, or something else, such as by buying, say, a chunk of PD's debt) to 'complete' the licence transaction?
- did YM's money all go through the SPV or did some go direct to SWAN (secured on nothing) or directly to Saab?
- was Saab's IP subject to some sort of overarching charge by SweGov, ithe manner of a typical UK 'fixed and floating charge' or did SweGov 'only' take a charge over the ostensibly-valuable bits of Saab at purchse, such as Saab Parts, Saab Tools and Saab Real Estate?
bqf said:
Well done GM - a terrific lesson in buying something because it had the potential to be excellent, and then ensuring all of your subsequent actions made excellence completely impossible.
Muppets. I think we should all boycott Vauxhalls immediately.
IMO, GM bought Saab because it was already excellent. The vehicles produced by Saab before the buyout in the early 1990s were significantly superior to GM cars in every way. It seems to have been the case over the years that American firms have preferred to buy out the competition rather than compete directly. Build quality subsided greatly after the GM takeover. Compare the NG900 to the Classic for example - absolutely no comparison. My 9-3 Aero might be nice to look at but it spends more time in the garage than on the road. GM bought the company and ripped out its heart over a period of time and now have finally sealed their coffin. What a set of C**s.Muppets. I think we should all boycott Vauxhalls immediately.
elkface said:
IMO, GM bought Saab because it was already excellent. The vehicles produced by Saab before the buyout in the early 1990s were significantly superior to GM cars in every way. It seems to have been the case over the years that American firms have preferred to buy out the competition rather than compete directly. Build quality subsided greatly after the GM takeover. Compare the NG900 to the Classic for example - absolutely no comparison. My 9-3 Aero might be nice to look at but it spends more time in the garage than on the road. GM bought the company and ripped out its heart over a period of time and now have finally sealed their coffin. What a set of C**s.
Sad to say, even as a devout Saab-o-phile, I'm not sure I agree with you. C900 build was good, but the vehicle took something like 100 hours to build - if it wasn't loss-making, it certainly wasn't generating profits to sustain new model development. Have a look at the YouTube videos of the era to show how, err, relaxed the non-production-line build process was. GM got the build time, for the same car, down to something in the region of 15 hours, which was still high by GM standards but a bit more reasonable.
And we are again..
Rumours, rumours..
As mentioned on the front page Mahindra's name has been tossed about over the Christmas period & it is one of many rumours that have been cropping up in the Swedish media recently. Haven't posted any of them uptil now because its been the holidays but everyones back so here are the latest runners and riders.
1.) As I mentioned above Youngman seem to believe with some conviction that they own the PhoeniX platform. I would guess that how true that is depends on the how thenote scrawled on the back of a fag packet contract that Muller drew up with them was worded. I reckon this one will be heading to the courts.
2.) Yet another Chinese company, Dongfeng want to buy in. As the orginial reason Saab went bust was that GM didn't want their IP to go to China I would imagine they have no chance.
3.) A Turkish company Brightwell Holdings are circling too. They are described in the Swedish media as 'speculators' and claim they have already spoken to GM.
4.) Mahindra's name has been mentioned but it seems very vague. In fact some media reports claim they have already been rejected. What is interesting is that the statements about their possible involvement have been issued by Lars Carlström. The same Lars Carlstrom who used to issue statements for ..... Vladamir Antonov.
There are a lot of stories going around at the moment but the full team who will be dealing with the bankruptcy have yet to be completly assembled so it is still very early days to find out who will get what. But until we find out the answer to these two questions everything else is just speculation;
a.) Who will GM let use their IP?
b.) Will SAAB AB take the name back?
But they need to hurry up. Every day more of Saabs skilled engineers are moving onto other jobs and the value of whats left goes down. My own thoughts would be wait and see but if you've got a 9-4X, I think you'll have a real collectors car because can't see that vehicle being anything other than dead & buried.
Rumours, rumours..
As mentioned on the front page Mahindra's name has been tossed about over the Christmas period & it is one of many rumours that have been cropping up in the Swedish media recently. Haven't posted any of them uptil now because its been the holidays but everyones back so here are the latest runners and riders.
1.) As I mentioned above Youngman seem to believe with some conviction that they own the PhoeniX platform. I would guess that how true that is depends on the how the
2.) Yet another Chinese company, Dongfeng want to buy in. As the orginial reason Saab went bust was that GM didn't want their IP to go to China I would imagine they have no chance.
3.) A Turkish company Brightwell Holdings are circling too. They are described in the Swedish media as 'speculators' and claim they have already spoken to GM.
4.) Mahindra's name has been mentioned but it seems very vague. In fact some media reports claim they have already been rejected. What is interesting is that the statements about their possible involvement have been issued by Lars Carlström. The same Lars Carlstrom who used to issue statements for ..... Vladamir Antonov.
There are a lot of stories going around at the moment but the full team who will be dealing with the bankruptcy have yet to be completly assembled so it is still very early days to find out who will get what. But until we find out the answer to these two questions everything else is just speculation;
a.) Who will GM let use their IP?
b.) Will SAAB AB take the name back?
But they need to hurry up. Every day more of Saabs skilled engineers are moving onto other jobs and the value of whats left goes down. My own thoughts would be wait and see but if you've got a 9-4X, I think you'll have a real collectors car because can't see that vehicle being anything other than dead & buried.
Me on the 21/12/11 said:
Youngman: Rachel Pang, having recovered in remarkably quick time from her critical illness is now being quoted as saying that she is looking forward to purchasing the remains of Saab from the recievers. I bet she is. What needs to be seen is the rest of that document that appeared 10 days ago which appeared to suggest that finally some money had been paid into Swedish Automobile Cooperatief U.A. for the rights to the PhoeniX platform. This was the funding that was used by Muller to pay off the tax bill that he was personally liable for. It really would be a bit of deal for Youngman if they had got hold of an entire new vehicle modular platform for 2.2 million euros. (especially when they were orignally offered it for 70 million.). If they are the biggest creditor (and will find that out later.) I'm guessing that they will take the production line and the rights to current 9-3 thank you very much. The production line will fit very nicely into the empty factory they already have in country and the 9-3 will probably become the Youngman Something or Other.
The big question now is that were they deliberatly screwing with Muller, especially in the last couple of months? Who knows?
So what happens now? (all MHO)
1.) Youngman will probably end up in court with GM over the rights to the PhoeniX platform. They will possibly take the current 9-3 and its production line instead. Maybe that's what they wanted all the time?
Today?The big question now is that were they deliberatly screwing with Muller, especially in the last couple of months? Who knows?
So what happens now? (all MHO)
1.) Youngman will probably end up in court with GM over the rights to the PhoeniX platform. They will possibly take the current 9-3 and its production line instead. Maybe that's what they wanted all the time?
Rachal Pang in di.se said:
"I had a good meeting with the receivers. We made a proposal," she said.
"We will have another meeting, but I can not say exactly when."
Probably next week.
The week runs the state security is out as the only valid for one month after the bankruptcy, that is, until 19 January. Youngman is keen that the Saab staff and key skills do not disappear.
"Our proposal means that we should have left the production in Trollhättan. Then we also have manufacturing facilities in China," said Rachel Pang. She points out that Youngman believe in the Saab brand.
"Our business is about building Saab models. We want to keep the brand Saab."
Above all, Youngmans main aim is the new platform Phoenix, but it is considered to be one-two years left of development. Should there be anything to manufacture until it is ready to present 9-3 could be an opening. It is not as tightly controlled by General Motors. Saab's former owner has otherwise blocked all possibilities for Youngman to take over the technology.
"For the current 9-3 it's more about purchasing agreements than pure rights,"
It is expected that it will much more difficult to get GM to release the rights to the new 9-5 and 9-4X.
Why do I get a mental picture tonight of Muller looking like Andy Garcia at the end of Oceans Eleven? Standing in his vault, wondering where all the money has gone and realising that he has just been shafted."We will have another meeting, but I can not say exactly when."
Probably next week.
The week runs the state security is out as the only valid for one month after the bankruptcy, that is, until 19 January. Youngman is keen that the Saab staff and key skills do not disappear.
"Our proposal means that we should have left the production in Trollhättan. Then we also have manufacturing facilities in China," said Rachel Pang. She points out that Youngman believe in the Saab brand.
"Our business is about building Saab models. We want to keep the brand Saab."
Above all, Youngmans main aim is the new platform Phoenix, but it is considered to be one-two years left of development. Should there be anything to manufacture until it is ready to present 9-3 could be an opening. It is not as tightly controlled by General Motors. Saab's former owner has otherwise blocked all possibilities for Youngman to take over the technology.
"For the current 9-3 it's more about purchasing agreements than pure rights,"
It is expected that it will much more difficult to get GM to release the rights to the new 9-5 and 9-4X.
I went on a "sentimental journey" (and just to poke my nose) to-day to my local Saab dealer. (Squire Furneaux in Dunstable, for those that know it.)
Now I wish I hadn't: it was rather sad: lights out, showroom empty, workshop shuttered and a big transporter being loaded with the last half-a-dozen remaining new cars.
I (and my 9-3) will miss the quality of this operation: you really only had to walk in to sense the owner's eye on the business and the enthusiasm of the whole team.
My thanks to Bob and Kim (front of house), to Mark for his encyclopaedic parts knowledge and to all the guys who worked on the dirty bits for jobs well done. I wish you all well for what must be looking like a pretty bleak future as we enter 2012.
You deserve better.
Best, B
Now I wish I hadn't: it was rather sad: lights out, showroom empty, workshop shuttered and a big transporter being loaded with the last half-a-dozen remaining new cars.
I (and my 9-3) will miss the quality of this operation: you really only had to walk in to sense the owner's eye on the business and the enthusiasm of the whole team.
My thanks to Bob and Kim (front of house), to Mark for his encyclopaedic parts knowledge and to all the guys who worked on the dirty bits for jobs well done. I wish you all well for what must be looking like a pretty bleak future as we enter 2012.
You deserve better.
Best, B
AdvanceRoadcraft said:
I went on a "sentimental journey" (and just to poke my nose) to-day to my local Saab dealer. (Squire Furneaux in Dunstable, for those that know it.)
Now I wish I hadn't: it was rather sad: lights out, showroom empty, workshop shuttered and a big transporter being loaded with the last half-a-dozen remaining new cars.
I (and my 9-3) will miss the quality of this operation: you really only had to walk in to sense the owner's eye on the business and the enthusiasm of the whole team.
My thanks to Bob and Kim (front of house), to Mark for his encyclopaedic parts knowledge and to all the guys who worked on the dirty bits for jobs well done. I wish you all well for what must be looking like a pretty bleak future as we enter 2012.
You deserve better.
Best, B
My local dealer (only 4 miles from me, was very handy) probably much the same. I daren't go up there, I will be a bit sad....Now I wish I hadn't: it was rather sad: lights out, showroom empty, workshop shuttered and a big transporter being loaded with the last half-a-dozen remaining new cars.
I (and my 9-3) will miss the quality of this operation: you really only had to walk in to sense the owner's eye on the business and the enthusiasm of the whole team.
My thanks to Bob and Kim (front of house), to Mark for his encyclopaedic parts knowledge and to all the guys who worked on the dirty bits for jobs well done. I wish you all well for what must be looking like a pretty bleak future as we enter 2012.
You deserve better.
Best, B
Pistachio said:
Well, it would logically follow the pevious Autocar report at http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/... which said that the receivers were going to call back workers to complete the last 100 or so cars in order to sell them, but the unions vetoed the idea (for reasons unclear). All in all a bit crap...skwdenyer said:
Pistachio said:
Well, it would logically follow the pevious Autocar report at http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/... which said that the receivers were going to call back workers to complete the last 100 or so cars in order to sell them, but the unions vetoed the idea (for reasons unclear). All in all a bit crap...1.) It might be something to do with this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5IENbYftaY&fea...
This video was posted on the net in May to supposedly show completed cars coming off the line. I mentioned then that it seemed a little strange that the cars were being taken off the line with a fork lift rather than been driven off which is standard at most factories. My guess at the time was that these cars were not driveable and that it was done to impress future possible investors.
As the line has been shut for some time, the liabilty issues from cars that might or not have been 'fully' constructed would make these rather a risk for any new owner to deliver to future customers.
2.) If SAAB AB are about to withdraw the brand as I suspect, they wouldn't want anymore cars coming down the line with Saab written all over them.
If this is true and with the undue haste that the recievers are trying to get rid of the museum its not looking too good.
Interesting that supposedly included in the scrappage programme are 9-4Xs (test cars?) and all the 9-5 Estates bar one. I'm guessing that the 'first' 9-5 Estate that was delivered earlier in the year (which was heavily featured on SaabsUnited.) will be a real collectors item. Unless of course, that was done to impress future investors too and the customer never actually took delivery?..
The Hypno-Toad said:
skwdenyer said:
Pistachio said:
Well, it would logically follow the pevious Autocar report at http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/... which said that the receivers were going to call back workers to complete the last 100 or so cars in order to sell them, but the unions vetoed the idea (for reasons unclear). All in all a bit crap...1.) It might be something to do with this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5IENbYftaY&fea...
This video was posted on the net in May to supposedly show completed cars coming off the line. I mentioned then that it seemed a little strange that the cars were being taken off the line with a fork lift rather than been driven off which is standard at most factories. My guess at the time was that these cars were not driveable and that it was done to impress future possible investors.
As the line has been shut for some time, the liabilty issues from cars that might or not have been 'fully' constructed would make these rather a risk for any new owner to deliver to future customers.
2.) If SAAB AB are about to withdraw the brand as I suspect, they wouldn't want anymore cars coming down the line with Saab written all over them.
If this is true and with the undue haste that the recievers are trying to get rid of the museum its not looking too good.
Interesting that supposedly included in the scrappage programme are 9-4Xs (test cars?) and all the 9-5 Estates bar one. I'm guessing that the 'first' 9-5 Estate that was delivered earlier in the year (which was heavily featured on SaabsUnited.) will be a real collectors item. Unless of course, that was done to impress future investors too and the customer never actually took delivery?..
As to 2, I believe the 'undue haste' regarding the museum is due to (a) a need to pay rent on it, and (b) a need for the receivers to generate cash in order to pay themselves. There isn't that much at Saab which isn't leased, pledged, sold-and-leased-back or otherwise tied-up. The museum collection represents potentially fairly quick cash for the receivers, and is coupled with a removal of a liability (the lease).
This is the biggest error of judgement made by Victor IMHO - not ring-fencing the museum inside a trust of some sort akin to the BMIHT.
kprm77 said:
Don't know if this has been posted yet - list of the cars for sale from the Saab Museum?
Yeah I just saw it What a shame breaking the museum up…a bit of a blow to Trollhatten as that was a tourist attraction down by the canal.Codswallop said:
Such a shame the collection is being broken up. Loads of lovely metal in that link. Would love to go and have a good poke around sound of those time warp oldies. Hope they all find good homes.
A big plus one to that - what a shame it is all ending like this. I didn't realise that there were so many variants of the earlier cars.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff