Discussion
The Hypno-Toad said:
More news from the bankruptcy proceedings and this time from the "heard that one before" pile.
Youngman are now out... again. They have withdrawn their offer for the remains of the company. This means that the only people now left looking at what is left of Saab are Mahindra, a new Swedish electric car consortium who want build a new hybrid vehicle at the Trollhatten site & Volvo who just want the tools.
Shock! Horror! Probe! Youngman are back in!!!! Who couldn't see that one coming?Youngman are now out... again. They have withdrawn their offer for the remains of the company. This means that the only people now left looking at what is left of Saab are Mahindra, a new Swedish electric car consortium who want build a new hybrid vehicle at the Trollhatten site & Volvo who just want the tools.
Apparantly they have now come back in with a bigger bid. This following the news that the electric car bid, National Electric Vehicles of Sweden, had stalled owing to the issue that they didn't want either Saab Parts or Saab Tools.
Unsurprisingly therefore there was no announcement yesterday.
But there were media reports that Muller was back in country as the administrators would like to have a word...
Leaks tonight......
Youngman's bid = 4.6 billion Knr
NEVS bid = 1.5 billion Knr
Mahindra = ooott
BMW = Never in in the first place.
Awhile ago, I suggested that Youngman would string the administrators along just like they did Muller, seems like that may well be doing that. If they do win, I wonder how much of that money will actually turn up?
Youngman's bid = 4.6 billion Knr
NEVS bid = 1.5 billion Knr
Mahindra = ooott
BMW = Never in in the first place.
Awhile ago, I suggested that Youngman would string the administrators along just like they did Muller, seems like that may well be doing that. If they do win, I wonder how much of that money will actually turn up?
The Hypno-Toad said:
Awhile ago, I suggested that Youngman would string the administrators along just like they did Muller, seems like that may well be doing that. If they do win, I wonder how much of that money will actually turn up?
Scrap value only, as many have said in this thread and others on Pistonheads, the Chinese play the long game, stringing the stupid Europeans along for a year or two, in order to get a multi-million business for a handful of beads, is what they do (they did the same with Rover)If only the same effort was put into keeping large employers afloat, as the EU put into keeping the Euro and the undemocratic EUSSR afloat.
As an aside, but following-on from the mention of VM. I noticed this: http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2012/05/vict.... The piece claims that VM has reduced his shareholding in Spyker (by use of 'trust' companies including Tenaci) from 70% to around 24%. 70%? Can that be right? How on earth did he end up owning 70% of Spyker after all the share issues of the 'Saab era'? The only explanation I can think of is that he has been quietly buying-up the almost-worthless stock now that the price has crashed. As ever with VM, he's obviously planning something 
News coming out of Sweden tonight is very confused but suggests by no means the NEVS propsal is a done deal.
It is now reported that nothing has been signed and Youngman are insisting that they have a bid in & that they have a letter from the NRDC (remember them?) which states that they have first refusal on the remains of Saab as far as it going to any Chinese company is concerned. As NEVS have part Chinese ownership they are saying the can block any deal that involves the electric car company.
The NDO are now saying that if NEVS don't take the parts company, they will claim it as part of the outstanding debt that the company owns to them.
There are issues now being raised about some of the people and companies that make up NEVS. Eyebrows being raised about some of the companies being registered in Virgin Islands.
I just wish Youngman would p
s off and stop playing games with the Trollhatten workers lives.
As ever, nothing is ever easy when it comes to Saab.
It is now reported that nothing has been signed and Youngman are insisting that they have a bid in & that they have a letter from the NRDC (remember them?) which states that they have first refusal on the remains of Saab as far as it going to any Chinese company is concerned. As NEVS have part Chinese ownership they are saying the can block any deal that involves the electric car company.
The NDO are now saying that if NEVS don't take the parts company, they will claim it as part of the outstanding debt that the company owns to them.
There are issues now being raised about some of the people and companies that make up NEVS. Eyebrows being raised about some of the companies being registered in Virgin Islands.
I just wish Youngman would p
s off and stop playing games with the Trollhatten workers lives.As ever, nothing is ever easy when it comes to Saab.
groomi said:
It's been said numerous times, but you really couldn't make this stuff up.
I'm beginning to think the only way Saab can become profitable again is by making a Hollywood movie about themselves.
Indeed. And this is fascinating reading.I'm beginning to think the only way Saab can become profitable again is by making a Hollywood movie about themselves.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/06/this-swed...
Seems that NEVS are not quite what they seem..... There's a surprise.
Sad times. I suspect this drama will play out for many years yet.
Off topic a little, but isn't it a shame when cars like this were so recently made? I know the 9-3 was an ageing design, but this was a tasty car when new and is a proper Q-car bargain second hand now.
I'm a bit tempted myself.
Off topic a little, but isn't it a shame when cars like this were so recently made? I know the 9-3 was an ageing design, but this was a tasty car when new and is a proper Q-car bargain second hand now.
I'm a bit tempted myself.
blearyeyedboy said:
Sad times. I suspect this drama will play out for many years yet.
Off topic a little, but isn't it a shame when cars like this were so recently made? I know the 9-3 was an ageing design, but this was a tasty car when new and is a proper Q-car bargain second hand now.
I'm a bit tempted myself.
Yup, Turbo-X is a great car, rear eLSD works well, and despite it's GM origins, the engine is a good one...as you say, definate Q-car material. They respond very well to a remap Off topic a little, but isn't it a shame when cars like this were so recently made? I know the 9-3 was an ageing design, but this was a tasty car when new and is a proper Q-car bargain second hand now.
I'm a bit tempted myself.
I was tempted a couple of years back by one to replace my 9-5 Aero, but I just didn't need a large-ish 4 door car anymore.
(pity the guy writing that ad couldn't get the facts right about the car though with that twin turbo V6 bulls
t )Confirmed today by the adminstrators that NEVS have bought the majority of what was SAAB/SWAN.
The very good news as far as existing owners are concerned is that the Swedish government will be running the parts side of the business as they have taken it in lieu of the funds that they gave to Muller as part of his original set up loan. So at least running an existing car will be a bit easier to do in the future. After three years the government will have an option to sell the business on, if NEVS don't want to buy it back.
So what are NEVS going to do?
1.) No 9-5 or 9-4X. If you've got one of those, you've got a collectors car, congratulations.
2.) Only electric cars. Not hybrids or bi-power, full electric battery powered cars in the same class as the Leaf & Volt & that Peugeot thing whose name I can't remember.
3.) The first car will be launched late in 2013/early 2014 and will be based on the existing 9-3, the IP of which has been bought off GM.
4.) Eventually there will be a brand new car which may have some parts carried forward from the PhoeniX platform.
If battery technology moves at the pace NEVS are gambling that it will then this could be a very good move. They could be right at the front of the market if/when these new batteries appear & that could put them in pole position when the interest in electric power sky-rockets when the new Porsche rocks up.
However................
There is always a however when it comes to Saab.
How many batteries are you going to need to put in a 10 year old car which was designed at a time when electric cars where not even being discussed?
Where are you going to put them?
Isn't a car that was built for the stresses and strains of a petrol/diesel car going to be a tad on the heavy side for just electric power?
Why would people buy as a presumably fat slow electric car that they haven't wanted to buy as a fast reasonably economical petrol car for the last ten years?
If anyone out there cares anymore here's my view on it.
Next year there will be an all singing, all dancing show car with LED everythings, gull wing doors, proton drive and a flux thingy. It will be announced it will be launched within the next two years. It will never be seen again. The funding will 'dry up' and the factory and the 9-3 production line will be sold on at a profit.
The good news about all of that is NEVS have only bought the assets, it has not be confirmed that they have secured the rights to the Saab name. My guess would be that they haven't otherwise they would have announced it today. Hopefully that will mean that if it all goes wrong again, Saabs name won't get dragged through the mud.
The very good news as far as existing owners are concerned is that the Swedish government will be running the parts side of the business as they have taken it in lieu of the funds that they gave to Muller as part of his original set up loan. So at least running an existing car will be a bit easier to do in the future. After three years the government will have an option to sell the business on, if NEVS don't want to buy it back.
So what are NEVS going to do?
1.) No 9-5 or 9-4X. If you've got one of those, you've got a collectors car, congratulations.
2.) Only electric cars. Not hybrids or bi-power, full electric battery powered cars in the same class as the Leaf & Volt & that Peugeot thing whose name I can't remember.
3.) The first car will be launched late in 2013/early 2014 and will be based on the existing 9-3, the IP of which has been bought off GM.
4.) Eventually there will be a brand new car which may have some parts carried forward from the PhoeniX platform.
If battery technology moves at the pace NEVS are gambling that it will then this could be a very good move. They could be right at the front of the market if/when these new batteries appear & that could put them in pole position when the interest in electric power sky-rockets when the new Porsche rocks up.
However................
There is always a however when it comes to Saab.
How many batteries are you going to need to put in a 10 year old car which was designed at a time when electric cars where not even being discussed?
Where are you going to put them?
Isn't a car that was built for the stresses and strains of a petrol/diesel car going to be a tad on the heavy side for just electric power?
Why would people buy as a presumably fat slow electric car that they haven't wanted to buy as a fast reasonably economical petrol car for the last ten years?
If anyone out there cares anymore here's my view on it.
Next year there will be an all singing, all dancing show car with LED everythings, gull wing doors, proton drive and a flux thingy. It will be announced it will be launched within the next two years. It will never be seen again. The funding will 'dry up' and the factory and the 9-3 production line will be sold on at a profit.
The good news about all of that is NEVS have only bought the assets, it has not be confirmed that they have secured the rights to the Saab name. My guess would be that they haven't otherwise they would have announced it today. Hopefully that will mean that if it all goes wrong again, Saabs name won't get dragged through the mud.
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Wednesday 13th June 18:47
Hi Toad
All I can say is that I never saw this one coming.
Not sure what to say. Electric cars.....
I now have this vision of electric cars driving around with V8 sounds playing through the speakers.
If it means the plant is saved and workers can afford to put food on the table and its sustainable... then its a good thing.
All I can say is that I never saw this one coming.
Not sure what to say. Electric cars.....
I now have this vision of electric cars driving around with V8 sounds playing through the speakers.
If it means the plant is saved and workers can afford to put food on the table and its sustainable... then its a good thing.
Reports tonight from Sweden seem to be suggesting that SAAB AB will NOT grant NEVS a licence for the Saab name at least for the time being. It would appear that will be using a "wait & see" plan. If NEVS produce a car that works in two years time then there will be another discussion.
So at the moment, that might well be it.
So at the moment, that might well be it.
The Hypno-Toad said:
Reports tonight from Sweden seem to be suggesting that SAAB AB will NOT grant NEVS a licence for the Saab name at least for the time being. It would appear that will be using a "wait & see" plan. If NEVS produce a car that works in two years time then there will be another discussion.
So at the moment, that might well be it.
I can understand SAAB AB's position, but the reality is that NEVS won't be able to raise the same funding without knowing whether they have the Saab name.So at the moment, that might well be it.
Can't see a future for them unfortunately.
For the umpteenth time I'm forced to say "You couldn't make this up"...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19153200
GM were certainly a spanner in the works a time or two (and as mentioned earlier in this thread I can actually kind of see why they did did so) but whether they acted in a way such that they have a case to answer in court I don't know. It does have to be said that from that story it reads very much like a last grab for Mr Muller to line his own pockets a bit
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19153200
GM were certainly a spanner in the works a time or two (and as mentioned earlier in this thread I can actually kind of see why they did did so) but whether they acted in a way such that they have a case to answer in court I don't know. It does have to be said that from that story it reads very much like a last grab for Mr Muller to line his own pockets a bit
KaraK said:
For the umpteenth time I'm forced to say "You couldn't make this up"...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19153200
GM were certainly a spanner in the works a time or two (and as mentioned earlier in this thread I can actually kind of see why they did did so) but whether they acted in a way such that they have a case to answer in court I don't know. It does have to be said that from that story it reads very much like a last grab for Mr Muller to line his own pockets a bit
Beat me to it, KaraK.http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19153200
GM were certainly a spanner in the works a time or two (and as mentioned earlier in this thread I can actually kind of see why they did did so) but whether they acted in a way such that they have a case to answer in court I don't know. It does have to be said that from that story it reads very much like a last grab for Mr Muller to line his own pockets a bit
The ego of Muller is so big I'm surprised it hasn't got its own postcode. He has no chance of winning this and the idea that is getting promotion on SaabsUnited at the moment that this will some how result in the return of the company from dead is ridiculous as Saab doesn't even exist anymore and Muller is such a busted flush that no one will let him anywhere near the factory again. Even if he did manage to screw some funds out of GM they would go straight into Spyker.
In another I'm quite glad he's done this because if I was CEO of GM I would be putting all of my resources into investigating the links between Muller and that bastion of sound banking and football club ownership, Vladimir Antonov. That could make Mullers day in court interesting to say the least.
Insanity. Again.
Now Youngman are thinking about suing too.
Which is odd when you consider Mullers comments on the 28/11/11.
"On the same day a Swedish journalist collars Muller at Heathrow & perhaps it was the pre-flight first class complimentary G & T talking but it is claimed Muller says he thinks that GM will reject any Chinese deal and he can’t understand why they keep pumping money into SWAN. Later in the day he claims he was “mis-quoted” and what he meant to say was just confirming that he thought the 100% deal was not going to happen. The question of the funding and his “the black hole that is Saab” statement isn’t raised again but what Muller is doing in London or how he was mis-quoted when he was talking to an English speaking journalist remained a mystery."
That would suggest that Muller already knew that any Chinese deal would be rejected, so why aren't Youngman suing him? Or should that be so why aren't Youngman suing him yet...
Muller has now suggested that he would like the hearing to take place in front of a jury, which I would suggest would be an excellent idea. I would certainly get the popcorn out for that one & everyone at SaabsUnited thinks a brillant plan too but possibly different reasons.
Lets see... A Chinese company & a egotisical Dutchman suing a major American company in front of a jury in the city in which the company is based....
I'm sure that'll end well.
Which is odd when you consider Mullers comments on the 28/11/11.
"On the same day a Swedish journalist collars Muller at Heathrow & perhaps it was the pre-flight first class complimentary G & T talking but it is claimed Muller says he thinks that GM will reject any Chinese deal and he can’t understand why they keep pumping money into SWAN. Later in the day he claims he was “mis-quoted” and what he meant to say was just confirming that he thought the 100% deal was not going to happen. The question of the funding and his “the black hole that is Saab” statement isn’t raised again but what Muller is doing in London or how he was mis-quoted when he was talking to an English speaking journalist remained a mystery."
That would suggest that Muller already knew that any Chinese deal would be rejected, so why aren't Youngman suing him? Or should that be so why aren't Youngman suing him yet...
Muller has now suggested that he would like the hearing to take place in front of a jury, which I would suggest would be an excellent idea. I would certainly get the popcorn out for that one & everyone at SaabsUnited thinks a brillant plan too but possibly different reasons.
Lets see... A Chinese company & a egotisical Dutchman suing a major American company in front of a jury in the city in which the company is based....
I'm sure that'll end well.
"Welcome back my friends to show that never ends...."
The trouble is with the present is that sometimes you forget to look into the past. When you look into the past sometimes you find out stuff that shines a light onto peoples motivations now. I was a stupid Toad to be honest, I should have checked because the explanation as to some of Victors actions was there all along.
2006
This 'thing' is shown at one of the motor shows.
Its called the Spyker B6 or Spyker P2P. As you can see its designed for the super luxury SUV market that Bentley, Maserati, Mercedes and Porsche either have or want a nice big chunk of. Most of that market is, of course, in China...
Next up, anyone remember this?
Then yesterday in a move that will surprise absolutely no one at all...
"Listen GM, we can do this one of two ways. Either I can bog your legal team down in a petty lawsuit for a couple of years or you can surrender your rights to a platform you no longer want/need anyway and I'll fk off. Your call."
Clever, clever Uncle Victor.
It would take to long for me to go through this entire thread at this time in the morning but I do seem to recall saying that Muller would leave Saab with all Spykers debts paid off and the Phoenix platform tucked up under his arm.
Looks like I was right.
The trouble is with the present is that sometimes you forget to look into the past. When you look into the past sometimes you find out stuff that shines a light onto peoples motivations now. I was a stupid Toad to be honest, I should have checked because the explanation as to some of Victors actions was there all along.
2006
This 'thing' is shown at one of the motor shows.
Its called the Spyker B6 or Spyker P2P. As you can see its designed for the super luxury SUV market that Bentley, Maserati, Mercedes and Porsche either have or want a nice big chunk of. Most of that market is, of course, in China...
Next up, anyone remember this?
The Hypno-Toad on 12/09/2011 said:
SWAN/SAAB announce they have sold the rights to the PhoeniX platform (which is basically the chassis to the replacement 9-3.) to PangDa/Youngman for 70 million euros. In order to do this they have to set up another company, Swedish Automobile Coöperatief U.A because under the terms of the Re-Organisation any funds that come in will be immediately seized by the NDEO for them to decide where they are distributed. Therefore the rights to the platform will be sold to this company, who will sell it to the Chinese. Then they will give the money back to SWAN/SAAB.
So basically, Muller made sure that both himself and Youngman kept the rights to the Phoenix platform somewhere where the bankruptcy proceedings couldn't touch them...Then yesterday in a move that will surprise absolutely no one at all...
ttela.se yesterday said:
Spyker & Youngman have signed a framework agreement to form two joint so-called joint ventures. A company based on the platform Phoenix that was under development at Saab before the bankruptcy and which Youngman believes possess license. According to a press release, the company called Spyker Phoenix will develop and build premium cars based on the platform.
The new company Spyker Phoenix, Youngman will own 80 percent and 20 percent Spyker.The future cars that are planned to be more luxurious than comparable Saab models. It can be output in both Europe and China, according to the press release.
Both Spyker CEO Victor Muller and Young's CEO Pang Qingnian, says he is very happy with the arrangement.
"With this framework agreement adds Youngman and Spyker basis for an intensive cooperation in which we are to achieve the goals we had as partners in Saab Automobile," said Victor Muller.
The future Spyker is to be based on the Phoenix platform will have distinct features from Saab, according to Muller. Same designer, Jason Castriota, who designed the new Saab 9-3 platform that was originally intended for, is for the design. The first example of this will be a luxury 4x4 called the Spyker P2P, which stands for Paris to Peking.
“There will definitely be a part of Saab cars, but they'll be more premium. We continue where we left off,” says Muller.
The only question is who owns the Phoenix platform, which is the major asset of Saab's bankruptcy and electric vehicle consortium Nevs, who in June was presented as a buyer, going to use the platform for their electric cars. At the same time, according to Victor Muller, no doubt about that Youngman has license to Phoenix platform as it looked in September 2011 when Youngman signed a loan agreement with the platform as collateral.
“I self-wrote the agreement with Youngman then so I know what they have, he says. “If their purchase actually closes, they will take the platform,” says Muller said.
He sees no problem with Spyker and Youngman refining the platform and then building cars with NEVS.
Spyker wants to hire engineers who previously worked at Saab and who understands technology. We need a large number, according to Victor Muller, who does not want to specify how many. Still has no contacts have been made. Muller believes the car will be ready for production in 2015.
“I do not think it will be a finished car until at least the end of 2015,” he says.
“Youngman will pour in hundreds of millions of euros,” says Muller.
The cars will probably either be built in Holland or China.
But what about the fact that GM own some of the IP to the Phoenix platform? Well, remember the lawsuit announced a couple of weeks ago? Here's how that conversation will go,The new company Spyker Phoenix, Youngman will own 80 percent and 20 percent Spyker.The future cars that are planned to be more luxurious than comparable Saab models. It can be output in both Europe and China, according to the press release.
Both Spyker CEO Victor Muller and Young's CEO Pang Qingnian, says he is very happy with the arrangement.
"With this framework agreement adds Youngman and Spyker basis for an intensive cooperation in which we are to achieve the goals we had as partners in Saab Automobile," said Victor Muller.
The future Spyker is to be based on the Phoenix platform will have distinct features from Saab, according to Muller. Same designer, Jason Castriota, who designed the new Saab 9-3 platform that was originally intended for, is for the design. The first example of this will be a luxury 4x4 called the Spyker P2P, which stands for Paris to Peking.
“There will definitely be a part of Saab cars, but they'll be more premium. We continue where we left off,” says Muller.
The only question is who owns the Phoenix platform, which is the major asset of Saab's bankruptcy and electric vehicle consortium Nevs, who in June was presented as a buyer, going to use the platform for their electric cars. At the same time, according to Victor Muller, no doubt about that Youngman has license to Phoenix platform as it looked in September 2011 when Youngman signed a loan agreement with the platform as collateral.
“I self-wrote the agreement with Youngman then so I know what they have, he says. “If their purchase actually closes, they will take the platform,” says Muller said.
He sees no problem with Spyker and Youngman refining the platform and then building cars with NEVS.
Spyker wants to hire engineers who previously worked at Saab and who understands technology. We need a large number, according to Victor Muller, who does not want to specify how many. Still has no contacts have been made. Muller believes the car will be ready for production in 2015.
“I do not think it will be a finished car until at least the end of 2015,” he says.
“Youngman will pour in hundreds of millions of euros,” says Muller.
The cars will probably either be built in Holland or China.
"Listen GM, we can do this one of two ways. Either I can bog your legal team down in a petty lawsuit for a couple of years or you can surrender your rights to a platform you no longer want/need anyway and I'll f
k off. Your call."Clever, clever Uncle Victor.
It would take to long for me to go through this entire thread at this time in the morning but I do seem to recall saying that Muller would leave Saab with all Spykers debts paid off and the Phoenix platform tucked up under his arm.
Looks like I was right.
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Tuesday 28th August 07:08
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Tuesday 28th August 07:45
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