Discussion
local saab adrian smith i think it was, were up at glenshee (ski resort on scotland) ponsoring a snowboard and ski competition and had 3 or 4 saabs on show a little sales hut and 2 salesmen. i didnt see a single person looking at them all day. smacked as desperation to me to try and get some middleclass customers interested. ironicly in the car park i couldnt see one saab a skier or boarder had taken up.
rscott said:
Wondering how many who make the comparison have actually driven both the cars they're comparing? As a 9-3 owner who's driven plenty of Vectras (usually hired cars for business travel..) I can assure you that there any many, many differences.
I mostly agree. I've driven a 9-3, owned a Cadillac BLS (essentially a rebodied 9-3) and driven a few Vectras. The 9-3 is a better car and it's certainly more comfortable and nicer to live with.But it's still more similar to a Vectra than I'd prefer. Mind you, I'd say the same about a Volvo S40 and a Focus. It's a cut above, but won't match more premium products. Hopefully the next 9-3 will be a bit more distinct without GM's overbearing involvement.
VeeFour said:
They've not been built by GM for a while now!
They still clearly use GM platforms and parts for the 9-3 and the new 9-5. The diesel engines come ready built from Germany. (I don't know about petrols; I'll need someone else to tell you about those.) The production line was set up by GM. While they can change little bits here and there, they can't magically change how they're built until the next generation of models come out.If the next generation of models come out.
blearyeyedboy said:
They still clearly use GM platforms and parts for the 9-3 and the new 9-5. The diesel engines come ready built from Germany. (I don't know about petrols; I'll need someone else to tell you about those.) The production line was set up by GM. While they can change little bits here and there, they can't magically change how they're built until the next generation of models come out.
If the next generation of models come out.
They can apply better quality control to what they are producing, though.If the next generation of models come out.
Engines are always going to come in a crate from elsewhere - Saab have never really had the resources to design and produce their own engines (not since they ditched the 2-strokes). Even the old slant-4 lump was a bought in design.
But even the might of GM or Ford can't go it alone on engine design anymore.
VeeFour said:
They can apply better quality control to what they are producing, though.
This is true, which is why I said they can tinker around the edges. But they can't rearrange a whole production line or replace old machines with new ones. They can't change the quality of parts they use. And why would they spend loads of money changing the build quality of a car that's being replaced in 1-2 years anyway? Better to make the 9-5 better and set up better processes for building the next 9-3.
Slade Alive said:
There's so much rubbish in this topic I'm amazed many here aren't working and running Saab themselves they seem to know or have all the answers.
Saab a Vectra, do me a favour. It's a shared platform which is little more than a modified floor-pan and few shared brake and suspension components.
Saab's convertible outsold ALL its UK rivals put together. Likely still is.
You would think Saab built a bad car. Fact is, they don't, and never have. I'm all ears if anyone thinks they know of one. And no I'm not interested in personal taste or preference. That's not what I'm talking about.
"Personal taste or preference" is always a difficult one to define but as an ex-Saab salesman I think its safe to say that the 1994 onwards 900 2.0i was a bit of a barge, especially in the Convertible form and the original 9-5 diesel 2.2 auto? was too. The Viggen was a totally out of control death machine but some people really loved it. Scared the living crap out of me on country roads. Still wonder where the rumoured couple of million went that Saab paid TWR to develop the front suspension went. Saab a Vectra, do me a favour. It's a shared platform which is little more than a modified floor-pan and few shared brake and suspension components.
Saab's convertible outsold ALL its UK rivals put together. Likely still is.
You would think Saab built a bad car. Fact is, they don't, and never have. I'm all ears if anyone thinks they know of one. And no I'm not interested in personal taste or preference. That's not what I'm talking about.
However: 9-5 3.0tdi V6, 9-5 Aero Auto (250hp), old shape 9-3 Aero 3drs, lovely cars.
All IMHO of course.
But as I have said on here a number of times Saabs downfall was caused by a lack of a halo car. What you do is you create a proper cool sports car (in Saabs case call it a Draken, Speedster or even Sonnett.). The young people come in and hopefully buy it. They then get married, get pregnent and if they've liked it, chop it in for a child friendly estate. Its exactly what Audi did with the TT. Its not really marketing rocket science.
Of course GM never gave Saab enough money to develop such a car but they didn't need to. They could have given Saab the VX220 where it could have become Saabs halo car but no thought the GM bigwigs. Lets give it to Vauxhall & get Griff Rhys-Jones to advertise it in his underpants.
I stand to be corrected but I think that the turbo engine that found its way into that car was basically developed by Saab anyway.
Or to put it another way, giving Saab the VX220 wouldn't have harmed the company and would have probably got them a damn sight more publicity and a bigger image boost than it did to Vauxhall.
Image boost+publicity, usually = sales. Just ask Audi.
VeeFour said:
Engines are always going to come in a crate from elsewhere - Saab have never really had the resources to design and produce their own engines (not since they ditched the 2-strokes). Even the old slant-4 lump was a bought in design.
Except they only stopped producing their own engines a few years ago, when GM sold off the Saab engine foundry/manufacturing facility in Sweden, where the B205/B235 engines were made for the 'old' 9-5. These were a development of the B204/B234 engines which had been a new straight block design of the old slant 4 engines that you mention.And in fact, the old two-stroke engines you also mention were not a Saab design either, and were a Saab development of a DKW design
Edited by aeropilot on Sunday 3rd April 14:57
The Hypno-Toad said:
Lets give it to Vauxhall & get Griff Rhys-Jones to advertise it in his underpants.
Whether it would have suited Saab is a good discussion It always astonished me that the coolest Vauxhall of its era was advertised in this way. How to kill off your market in one easy step.Lets just suppose that the Saab was pure Vectra underneath - do you honestly think the average buyer would be aware of that ?- most would struggle to know their Saab trim level never mind the esoteric chassis politics
The vast majority of car buyers Saab or ortherwise know sweet FA about platform sharing - and i suspect most would not be bothered anyway
The vast majority of car buyers Saab or ortherwise know sweet FA about platform sharing - and i suspect most would not be bothered anyway
aeropilot said:
Except they only stopped producing their own engines a few years ago, when GM sold off the Saab engine foundry/manufacturing facility in Sweden, where the B205/B235 engines were made for the 'old' 9-5. These were a development of the B204/B234 engines which had been a new straight block design of the old slant 4 engines that you mention.
And in fact, the old two-stroke engines you also mention were not a Saab design either, and were a Saab development of a DKW design
Good point - forgotten that Saab have never actually designed their own engine..... so they're not going to start now!And in fact, the old two-stroke engines you also mention were not a Saab design either, and were a Saab development of a DKW design
Yes, they were making the old B-series lumps, but they were an ancient design bought in from elsewhere.
Which is why I can't understand some of the criticism of them buying in crated lumps from elsewhere.
GM went wring when they tried to pull s fast on on their customers , like ford did with the x type . People are not stupid and catastrophic depreciation is what hit them hardest . Now , if you want to rebadge something for a premium Market make sure they can cut it , a la lexus . It doesn't matter that it's a Toyota because Toyota are exceptionally well made cars
VeeFour said:
Which is why I can't understand some of the criticism of them buying in crated lumps from elsewhere.
It's not a criticism. It's a necessity for a company as small as Saab these days. If the engines are good, all power to Saab. (Pun intended.) What I pointed out was something very different. The build quality of Saabs is partly within their control, but partly on the quality of the parts they're built with. The 9-3 is partly dependent on the quality of the GM bits it needs to be built, even though GM is no longer Saab's owner.
Edited by blearyeyedboy on Sunday 3rd April 18:44 because he can't type properly
;-)Edited by blearyeyedboy on Sunday 3rd April 20:05
hora said:
Toyota make well made cars? Absolute b
ks. Soory they make white goods on wheels.
Evidence of engines with known high oil consumption, vague steering feel across the whole range and dull/insipid handling.
I rejected a Yaris on the basis of a gearbox design fault
Oh right , because GM makes interesting cars do they ? ks. Soory they make white goods on wheels. Evidence of engines with known high oil consumption, vague steering feel across the whole range and dull/insipid handling.
I rejected a Yaris on the basis of a gearbox design fault
VeeFour said:
aeropilot said:
Except they only stopped producing their own engines a few years ago, when GM sold off the Saab engine foundry/manufacturing facility in Sweden, where the B205/B235 engines were made for the 'old' 9-5. These were a development of the B204/B234 engines which had been a new straight block design of the old slant 4 engines that you mention.
And in fact, the old two-stroke engines you also mention were not a Saab design either, and were a Saab development of a DKW design
Good point - forgotten that Saab have never actually designed their own engine..... so they're not going to start now!And in fact, the old two-stroke engines you also mention were not a Saab design either, and were a Saab development of a DKW design
Yes, they were making the old B-series lumps, but they were an ancient design bought in from elsewhere.
The B engine was replaced by the H series, which was a complete redesign (twice in fact) and effectively the only true indiginously designed and built Saab engine.
aeropilot said:
No, they stopped making the ancient B engine in the early eighties.
The B engine was replaced by the H series, which was a complete redesign (twice in fact) and effectively the only true indiginously designed and built Saab engine.
They were still called a B-something. To call it an H is verging on wearing a 1970s Saab anorak and drinking weak lemon from a tartan flask.... and they were still just a revised version of someone else's design, no mater what the Saab-isti might claim.The B engine was replaced by the H series, which was a complete redesign (twice in fact) and effectively the only true indiginously designed and built Saab engine.
Let's fact it, despite me really liking the old 9-5 Aero, Saab were history the day they built a 900 on a Cavalier floorpan and sticking 'Ecotec' lumps in them was just another nail in the coffin.
They've come up with nothing that was their own work for about 40 years.
Ozzie Osmond said:
VeeFour said:
Saab were history the day they built a 900 on a Cavalier floorpan
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