Saab gone?

[Flying Toaster]

I've been watching this thread for a while now, and this whole thing has been an amazing drama. How on earth Muller kept SAAB running so long on barely anything is staggering, but it seemed inevitable that it would all fall apart soon.

I'm sad to see SAAB die, one day i'd like to own a 900 turbo, and i like the 9-5 2.8 XWD. They were a bit odd in a world where every other car is a grey bmw or audi. Unfortunately being different is not a recipe for success it appears.

My sympathies for all the workers who have lost their jobs in Trollhattan, they're the ones most affected by all of this. What a wonderful Christmas present indeed.

Finally, a big thanks to The Hypno-Toad for reporting everything that's happened, you practically made most of this thread.

[AndrewW-G]

Alfa numeric said:

The Hypno-Toad said:

A great post

Thanks for making the rollercoaster that the last year has been an interesting read..

+1

Like everybody else, I'm sad to see SAAB go, but it didn’t surprise me in the slightest, the Chinese play a very good game and did the same to SAAB as they have done to many others (drawn out the purchase until the firm has gone to the wall, then buy up the IP and tooling for peanuts)

[KaraK]

First off I want to thank Toad, skwdenyer et al for all their efforts in putting together the updates on this thread with news and analysis from all points of view I was able to follow something that was interesting to me but far too convoluted for me to try and follow it all on my own. Cheers guys

But enough of the gushy crap

I want to talk about this:

The Hypno-Toad said:

But we have forgotten one last player; SAAB AB
The aircraft company own the rights to the name & can withdraw the rights to the brand. After all of this sideshow over the last nine months, does anyone really think they are going to let any company soil that brand any further?
No chance. And without that brand, what is left of the company is only worth the tools, the spares and the unbuilt cars. Which as I mentioned is possibly all that the Chinese wanted in the first place.

As I said earlier on there is nothing to stop Saab AB either licensing the Saab name to another company for car purposes or indeed using it themselves. I fully agree with your points Toad in that they won't be wanting to risk any bad press with regards to the name in the immediate future, IIRC there were already reports of the negative press associated with the car business giving them some grief in their own dealings. As such I very much doubt that anyone who picks over the carcass will be allowed to take the name with them unless they have a vast amount of either cash or business to offer Saab AB to make it worth their while.

That doesn't mean however that we'll never see a Saab badge on a car again, the auto industry has form for resurrecting old names even after long periods and for one that has historically enjoyed a reputation for engineering innovation it would always be a tempting proposition.

[The Hypno-Toad]

KaraK said:

As I said earlier on there is nothing to stop Saab AB either licensing the Saab name to another company for car purposes or indeed using it themselves. I fully agree with your points Toad in that they won't be wanting to risk any bad press with regards to the name in the immediate future, IIRC there were already reports of the negative press associated with the car business giving them some grief in their own dealings. As such I very much doubt that anyone who picks over the carcass will be allowed to take the name with them unless they have a vast amount of either cash or business to offer Saab AB to make it worth their while.

That doesn't mean however that we'll never see a Saab badge on a car again, the auto industry has form for resurrecting old names even after long periods and for one that has historically enjoyed a reputation for engineering innovation it would always be a tempting proposition.

I would agree KaraK. I think it may come back at some stage and lets face it they haven't made a decision. But as I posted on a link back up there ^^^ they are already concerned rightly or wrongly that it is affecting the Grippen deal with Switzerland.
I think once all the bankruptcy proceedings have been gone through we will be lucky to see the Saab name on the front of a car for some considerable time.

Thanks for all the praise guys . Something that just started out as a single post has grown to become a major part of my life this year and has brought me into contact with some terrific people. I really wish though, meeting these people had been through something more positive and had not been the result of this tragedy for the motor industry, the people of Trollhatten & even some of my personal friends.

[skwdenyer]

To join the ranks of thanks (err, sorry...), thanks for all your efforts. It would have been nice to have had a happier ending, but there we are.

The Hypno-Toad said:

6.) Muller. It all depends on what the bankruptcy accountants find doesn't it? If he isn't a demon in disguise, he will sail off into the sunset with his Curaco bank account, his yellow Rolls-Royce and possibly even Spyker. As I have always said Mr Muller was never going to come out of this a pauper. He will join the ranks of Simon Gillet and John Towers as businessmen who promised big and yet everyone except the true believers could see were never going to succeed in delivering anything in the long term (except perhaps funds to their own bank accounts?)

On the matter of disagreeing in a civilised way.... I'd like to see some numbers, but I'm not aware that Muller's net position is positive. He took some money out, sure, but he also put some money in, both at the start, and in terms of funding his own various initiatives to save Saab again and again. His own assessment of his personal net position was negative to the tune of IIRC 13m euro or so on the deal. I would certainly not cast him in the mould of John Towers et al, since they put in £2.50 each, then a few million between them to buy the finance operation, and walked away with - so it is said - tens of millions of pounds. As you say, we'll have to wait and see what the forensic accountants find, but on the basis of what is known in public I don't really see the case for suggesting that Muller has been a financial winner in this deal.

My best guess is that he bet on VA being allowed in on the basis of the 'corrected' report as to his veracity, and may even have received assurances in some quarters that that would be the case. Certainly the decision to exclude VA seems frankly a bit stupid now - it doesn't really matter where his 30m euro came from; it could easily have been paid back later. Even if he was a first division gangster, I never saw the risk - not even the moral hazard - in allowing him to invest; the authorities could always have stopped him making a profit later if they could prove it was some sort of laundering operation. But the social cost of not allowing that single investment has been enormous.

There is no doubt that Muller is an optimist, somewhat in the vein of Steve Jobs: a common trait being a belief that belief itself will motivate people around you to achieve the near-impossible time after time. It worked in the acquisition process, and it did work at times in the 'save Saab, again' phases, but it was not as much of a reliable tool as perhaps VM's subconscious believed. Many have described Jobs as projecting a 'reality distortion field' around him, and I see something similar in Muller. Unlike Jobs, however, I don't see any evidence of Muller being as picky about the people who worked for him - let's face it, Jobs would have fired a lot of the GM 'old guard' whereas VM wanted to believe that the opportunity to change was all that they had been lacking for many years. He was wrong, I'm afraid.

Could Saab have prospered under Muller? Yes, I believe it could; it could have been much more aggressive in its push for sales, much more entrepreneurial in its approach to getting (re)started. For instance, it could immediately have announced a 'lifetime warranty' or somesuch; at the time, this would have had credibility, and would only have become an issue if Saab had been successful in its new life.

From the outside, the only really entrepreneurial spirit at Saab was Muller himself, and he was spread far too thin. This was certainly his fault, but I do sympathise with him for perhaps having - wrongly - expected many around him to have stepped up to the plate and tried to change the world a little more.

But there we are; let's see what happens now. I'd be happy with, say, a Magna takeover with a commitment to maintain the factory and preserve the museum as a testament to the heritage that they've become custodians of. And perhaps, in time, the museum can hold an exhibition of Castriota's work for Saab - it would be fascinating to see what could have been.

For my part, this whole saga has redoubled my resolve to do something I've been only talking about for a few years - to produce a pseudo-replica of 92.001 (by which I mean something that captures the essence and style and engineering thinking, but resolves a few of the impractical aspects of the design). I only want one, for myself, but I really, really ought to do it, if only to become the only manufacturer of Saabs

Thanks again, to all of you, for keeping this thread alive, and lively, and civilised; the outcome may not have been, but the journey was pleasurable in good company!

[Seek]

Well said

However... I'm not sure this is the end just yet.
Is noone else expecting another unexpected twist or 2?

Regarding the position of the Swedish government - I think also there VM slipped up. When he was negotiating the purchase of Saab in 2009 (inadvertently?) the stars all aligned for him. It was right before national elections and the sitting government would have been cruxified if Saab had gone under or if they had made a major financial contribution. So VM's negotiating game of leaking to the press and threatening to walk away working wonders.

When he tried the same this year it was irrelevant to the government as the next national elections are in 2 years. At that time noone will remember Saab. It was therefore in the interest of the powers that be to force a permanent solution now - ideally without the unpredictable factor of VM - whatever that solution would be so it couldn't haunt them at the next election.

[aeropilot]

Alfa numeric said:

As a postscript:

Wikipedia said:

Making up nearly 35% of those sales, China is Buick's largest market, selling more there than even the United States.

This is the sole reason, GM kept the Buick brand, and axed the Pontiac brand instead. Buick sales weren't anything like those of Pontiac in the USA home market, but the Chinese love of the brand meant that GM couldn't afford to axe the Buick brandname, so the axe fell on Pontiac instead.

[The Hypno-Toad]

skwdenyer said:

To keep the gushfest going, an extremely good post as ever. Its been a pleasure 'virtually' working with you, if you know what I mean.

But we will just have to see about Muller, Saint or sinner?

skwdenyer said:

For my part, this whole saga has redoubled my resolve to do something I've been only talking about for a few years - to produce a pseudo-replica of 92.001 (by which I mean something that captures the essence and style and engineering thinking, but resolves a few of the impractical aspects of the design). I only want one, for myself, but I really, really ought to do it, if only to become the only manufacturer of Saabs

I really hope you succeed. I wish I could fix cars rather than just post about them.

To prove this hasn't ended, all of the Trollhatten staff have been let go today as part of the bankruptcy proceedings.
The good news is that owing to the Swedish bankruptcy laws they have all been paid! So at least there will be some slight joy at Christmas for them. May they have a better new year.

[skwdenyer]

Seek said:

However... I'm not sure this is the end just yet.
Is noone else expecting another unexpected twist or 2?

Unfortunately, having lived through the roller coaster ride which was the MG Rover (mis)adventure, I'd have to say that the chances are quite slim, and the emotional capital invested in hoping is unlikely to deliver a decent return. The amount of money needed to get in there and sort Saab out properly is still pretty much the sameas it was before the bankruptcy petition; the debts weren't actually that large and unmanageable, even in today's straitened financial climate. Just look at, say, Thomas Cook and the financing packages that they've just negotiated, for instance.

The sort of person with a spare €500m-1bn in their pocket is unlikely to have not picked up the phone to speak with Victor over the last few months. There's a discount for buying out of bankruptcy but, set against that, there are the costs of getting going again, costs which would have been avoided by an investment even 3-4 months ago.

There might be some sort of Alchemy-like downsizing proposal (for those who recall the days of BMW's disposal of MG Rover), or perhaps a contract manufacturing operation, but I think even I think a full-scale recovery is unlikely. But then I've been wrong before.

On that note, now that it can be said without fear of appearing to talk down the patient's prospects, my Saabs have been amongst the most frustrating cars to own, despite the fact that I've owned many of them. To quote Muller quoting somebody more original, one definition of madness is doing the same thing multiple times an expecting a different outcome. I've owned a dozen Saabs over the years, from V4s onwards. All have been touched with 'something' but, honestly, not enough 'something' to attract enough buyers. I still love the thinking behind some of the solutions, but Saab never innovated or evolved fast enough (or, sometimes, at all - why nothing so simple as a split-folding rear seat on a C900?), never produced the cars people really wanted (where were the estates?), never fixed the weaknesses that were so apparent (99/C900 gearboxes, V4 fibre timing gear or rusting screen pillars, C900 steering racks, 99/C900 rusting door bottoms, later C900 rusting bonnets, 99/C900 wearing clutch hydraulics), let alone some of the poorer design decisions (every C900 smacks it's nose down over traffic calmers, for instance).

But there's still something, most usually the love it or hate it design (which is frankly where the GM cars went wrong IMHO - there was nothing to love for the few, yet not enough mainstream appeal for the many), the excellent stability in poor conditions, the great driving environment, the turbocharged engines, the excellent real-world safety, and so on.

To the very end, Saab were an enigma - what did the designers and engineers do all day between sporadic model development? - which somehow never quite worked out where they fit into the world. Of all the people in the world, Saab seemed to have found in Muller not just somebody else who 'got it' but someone who stood a chance of directing the company's talents to produce cars which showed the world why the 'Saab way' was the correct one. It is only sad that he, and they, didn't survive to get that chance.

- edited for spelling 'corrected' by another brilliant - yet - frustrating innovation, this time Apple's iPad. It really is such a shame that Apple could not have bought out Saab - that would have been a fascinating adventure

Edited by skwdenyer on Wednesday 21st December 20:12

[skwdenyer]

The Hypno-Toad said:

To prove this hasn't ended, all of the Trollhatten staff have been let go today as part of the bankruptcy proceedings.
The good news is that owing to the Swedish bankruptcy laws they have all been paid! So at least there will be some slight joy at Christmas for them. May they have a better new year.

Are you sure about the redundancies? This was reported today, but at least one Saab engineer has popped up on SU to say that this is categorically not the case.

[Petemate]

skwdenyer said:

Unfortunately, having lived through the roller coaster ride which was the MG Rover (mis)adventure, I'd have to say that the chances are quite slim, and the emotional capital invested in hoping is unlikely to deliver a decent return. The amount of money needed to get in there and sort Saab out properly is still pretty much the sameas it was before the bankruptcy petition; the debts weren't actually that large and unmanageable, even in today's straitened financial climate. Just look at, say, Thomas Cook and the financing packages that they've just negotiated, for instance.

The sort of person with a spare €500m-1bn in their pocket is unlikely to have not picked up the phone to speak with Victor over the last few months. There's a discount for buying out of bankruptcy but, set against that, there are the costs of getting going again, costs which would have been avoided by an investment even 3-4 months ago.

There might be some sort of Alchemy-like downsizing proposal (for those who recall the days of BMW's disposal of MG Rover), or perhaps a contract manufacturing operation, but I think even I think a full-scale recovery is unlikely. But then I've been wrong before.

On that note, now that it can be said without fear of appearing to talk down the patient's prospects, my Saabs have been amongst the most frustrating cars to own, despite the fact that I've owned many of them. To quote Muller quoting somebody more original, one definition of madness is doing the same thing multiple times an expecting a different outcome. I've owned a dozen Saabs over the years, from V4s onwards. All have been touched with 'something' but, honestly, not enough 'something' to attract enough buyers. I still love the thinking behind some of the solutions, but Saab never innocents or evolved fast enough (or, sometimes, at all - why nothing so simple as a split-folding rear seat on a C900?), never produced the cars people really wanted (where were the estates?), never fixed the weaknesses that were so apparent (99/C900 gearboxes, V4 fibre timing gear or rusting screen pillars, C900 steering racks, 99/C900 rusting door bottoms, later C900 rusting bonnets, 99/C900 wearing clutch hydraulics), let alone some of the poorer design decisions (every C900 smacks it's nose down over traffic calmers, for instance).

But there's still something, most usually the love it or hate it design (which is frankly where the GM cars went wrong IMHO - there was nothing to love for the few, yet not enough mainstream appeal for the many), the excellent stability in poor conditions, the great driving environment, the turbocharged engines, the excellent real-world safety, and so on.

To the very end, Saab were an enigma - what did the designers and engineers do all day between sporadic model development? - which somehow never quite worked out where they fit into the world. Of all the people in the world, Saab seemed to have found in Muller not just somebody else who 'got it' but someone who stood a chance of directing the company's talents to produce cars which showed the world why the 'Saab way' was the correct one. It is only sad that he, and they, didn't survive to get that chance.

skwdenyer - all very well put. I had many mates in the RAF with the old Saabs, both 2-stroke and V4. I loved the look of them. Even the estates! (well, I like estates) My current Sportwagon - I really like it, and I know that it has a lot of GM in it (for which I am grateful re the service parts, to be able to keep it on the road) and even with this latest sad development, I like the - sort of - exclusivity of it.

[skwdenyer]

Petemate said:

skwdenyer - all very well put. I had many mates in the RAF with the old Saabs, both 2-stroke and V4. I loved the look of them. Even the estates! (well, I like estates) My current Sportwagon - I really like it, and I know that it has a lot of GM in it (for which I am grateful re the service parts, to be able to keep it on the road) and even with this latest sad development, I like the - sort of - exclusivity of it.

My Mother had a 95 V4 for a long time, so I grew up with that particular estate - 7 seats in such a small overall package was an achievement.

There's been a 2-stroke on eBay recently, RHD (rare), and in lovely condition. I'd dearly love to give it a home, but £7k is a bit much right now when I don't have a garage in which to put it right now. Did you read the recent Octane (IIRC) article by John Simister swapping strokers with Eric Carlsson? 'Spirito de Saab' indeed

[Petemate]

skwdenyer said:

My Mother had a 95 V4 for a long time, so I grew up with that particular estate - 7 seats in such a small overall package was an achievement.

There's been a 2-stroke on eBay recently, RHD (rare), and in lovely condition. I'd dearly love to give it a home, but £7k is a bit much right now when I don't have a garage in which to put it right now. Did you read the recent Octane (IIRC) article by John Simister swapping strokers with Eric Carlsson? 'Spirito de Saab' indeed

I think I saw that - was it a beige colour? If that was it, looked pretty good. I didn't read the article you mentioned - will try to access it on my few days off (working Xmas)

[The Hypno-Toad]

skwdenyer said:

The Hypno-Toad said:

To prove this hasn't ended, all of the Trollhatten staff have been let go today as part of the bankruptcy proceedings.
The good news is that owing to the Swedish bankruptcy laws they have all been paid! So at least there will be some slight joy at Christmas for them. May they have a better new year.

Are you sure about the redundancies? This was reported today, but at least one Saab engineer has popped up on SU to say that this is categorically not the case.

SaabsUnited is where I got it from! And it has now been confirmed by ttela.

In other news, Rachel Pang continues her amazing recovery as she has flown into Sweden today to meet with the recievers. She has confirmed that Youngman want to buy the remains of the company asap and that they do indeed believe that they own at least part of the PhoeniX platform.

This is going to get interesting.... again.

[skwdenyer]

The Hypno-Toad said:

skwdenyer said:

The Hypno-Toad said:

To prove this hasn't ended, all of the Trollhatten staff have been let go today as part of the bankruptcy proceedings.
The good news is that owing to the Swedish bankruptcy laws they have all been paid! So at least there will be some slight joy at Christmas for them. May they have a better new year.

Are you sure about the redundancies? This was reported today, but at least one Saab engineer has popped up on SU to say that this is categorically not the case.

SaabsUnited is where I got it from! And it has now been confirmed by ttela.

In other news, Rachel Pang continues her amazing recovery as she has flown into Sweden today to meet with the recievers. She has confirmed that Youngman want to buy the remains of the company asap and that they do indeed believe that they own at least part of the PhoeniX platform.

This is going to get interesting.... again.

Interesting. So TimR at SU started off with:

TimR said:

The first thing that happened today was that all employees were let go

Which sounds logical, except we have today a comment from Emil:

Emil said:

I’ll add that I’m one of the engineers still officially employed by Saab Automobile (although I’m expecting to get the notice any one of the coming days)

and on the same day, in response to TimR's piece, LGA popped-up:

LGA said:

Please do not reuse the mis-information from the newspapers. We have not been given any notice: We have not yet been layed off. In fact we are still required to be present at work.

So, right now, it is unclear what is happening. Did ttela 'confirm it' after SU, or did SU in fact simply take it as fact from ttela? And, let us not forget, the Swedish Saab Automobile Development AB company is not included in the bankruptcy petition as far as I can tell. That is the JV company part-owned by YM. Were any of the engineers transferred to that company?

There is more to unravel, notwithstanding my caution earlier against unrealistic expectations

[K321]

i saw LWS's post , and this is what happened at Saab

Hypnotoad- you talk about the trollhatten people as if everyone at Saab was working in the factory- this is not the case- there are hundreds of managers etc there, will need to find out what happens to them directly

[skwdenyer]

Petemate said:

I think I saw that - was it a beige colour? If that was it, looked pretty good. I didn't read the article you mentioned - will try to access it on my few days off (working Xmas)

No, this one

[Petemate]

skwdenyer said:

No, this one

That DOES look nice. The Saab I saw was a beige estate, a little bit grubby round a couple of edges, but definitely restorable to an element of glory.

[Nicholas Blair]

beautiful - chap near me has a brown one that gets an outing now and agiain

[The Hypno-Toad]

Look at me..Christmas Eve and I'm still going, I must be nuts...

Confirmed. Youngman are convinced they own the PhoeniX platform. In fact, the reason why Ms Pang is in Stockholm is not only to lay claim to both the platform and the pickings from Saab but to set up a company to manage the development of the platform into a Youngman product.

Looks like someone might have got what they really wanted for Christmas. The really interesting bit will be seeing how much Muller charged them for it?

Enough. Back after Chrimbo.

A Merry Christmas to everyone on this thread!