Why are Mazda persisting with the Rotary Wankel engine?
Discussion
Oi_Oi_Savaloy said:
Can someone tell me why are Mazda persisting with developing the rotary wankel engine?
When I look at the horror stories associated with these engines in the RX8, then poor fuel consumption combined with the high vehicle tax these also attract - can't understand it to be honest.
Please tell me- am genuinely intrigued!
Well, the FD RX-7 outsold the Porsche 911 (993) worldwide. Although they were produced (only in Japan in small numbers) for a few more years.When I look at the horror stories associated with these engines in the RX8, then poor fuel consumption combined with the high vehicle tax these also attract - can't understand it to be honest.
Please tell me- am genuinely intrigued!
The RX-8 has sold many, many times its initial sales target - i think nearly 200,000 of them?
Jayho said:
Several times you have mentioned "unreliability" but have failed to elaborate. Reliability issues, is only down to poorly maintained examples. Like any other car, if its been poorly maintained, I'm sure its reliability would be affected.
This is the classic 'No true Scotsman' that all proponents of unreliable cars trot out (it should really be called 'No true Alfa/Rover'...) whereby only 'poorly maintained' examples of a car are unreliable. You might be right, but in that case they almost certainly require more maintenance than their rivals, so are flawed in that way. Some of the reliability issues seem to be an image problem from the RX7, but you only have to trawl eBay/AutoTrader or go to a local auction to see plenty of otherwise young and low mileage cars with engine problems.Edited by Jayho on Monday 18th April 19:50
Having said that I love the RX8. I love the styling, the practicality and the fact that it's different 'Just because'. When I drove one I loved the rotary, and I don't think the fuel economy is THAT terrible for what it is, as others have said if you drive your TT/Z4 like an old lady you might get 10 better mpg but driving them both properly I bet the gulf is much smaller than that between the official statistics.
It's funny to hear the RX8s fuel economy getting slated so much when plenty of similar cars do just as badly, perhaps even worse when driven properly. Imprezas, Evos, 350zs TTs, S3s, M3s, Focus STs, Astra VXRs and plenty of others are all easily capable of seeing mid-teen mpg on an enthusiastic run. As a family car the fuel economy does seem high, but as a sports car I'd say it's pretty fair.
I think the thing that makes it so noticeable is the price bracket the RX8 falls into. It's a beer priced car with champagne running costs, while all the immediate competition of the same age are still champagne priced cars with champagne running costs. Paying £300 tax on a £15k car sort of adds up. Paying the same £300 tax on a car that only cost £4k seems much harder to stomach.
The RX8s biggest strengths seem to have turned on it to be it's biggest downfalls. It has 4 usable seats, so unlike most other coupes it makes sense on the school run. But it still has the thirst of these less practical coupes, and it seems silly using something un-economical for the school run...
I think the thing that makes it so noticeable is the price bracket the RX8 falls into. It's a beer priced car with champagne running costs, while all the immediate competition of the same age are still champagne priced cars with champagne running costs. Paying £300 tax on a £15k car sort of adds up. Paying the same £300 tax on a car that only cost £4k seems much harder to stomach.
The RX8s biggest strengths seem to have turned on it to be it's biggest downfalls. It has 4 usable seats, so unlike most other coupes it makes sense on the school run. But it still has the thirst of these less practical coupes, and it seems silly using something un-economical for the school run...
Hi RotaryHeads,
don´t forget the wankel engine if you want all-out power,
if these things run methanol and HUUUGE turbos 6 second quartermile runs are on tap.
For some reason unbeknownst to me, Puerto Rico, Australia and Curacao are amongst the
pioneers in developing drag rotaries and driving incredibly fast with small engines (in tiny cars)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuPmeWPKfx0&fea...
When hiting the two-step rev limiter that is used on the startline,
these little monsters are machine-gunning in such a way
that top fuel crewchiefs have -allegedly- complained about the noise.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzwL1sBpQ4I&fea...
don´t forget the wankel engine if you want all-out power,
if these things run methanol and HUUUGE turbos 6 second quartermile runs are on tap.
For some reason unbeknownst to me, Puerto Rico, Australia and Curacao are amongst the
pioneers in developing drag rotaries and driving incredibly fast with small engines (in tiny cars)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuPmeWPKfx0&fea...
When hiting the two-step rev limiter that is used on the startline,
these little monsters are machine-gunning in such a way
that top fuel crewchiefs have -allegedly- complained about the noise.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzwL1sBpQ4I&fea...
ZeeTacoe said:
What you're saying is that we could probably fit a small block chevy in there.
You could probably fit one in there, but unless a Chevy small block is less than half the size of a Ford small block then it wont be anywhere near the same size as the Rotary, and it'll be nearly twice the weight.
Camaro91 said:
Yeah they sound w
k too, close enough
Don't be silly k too, close enough http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9675TKafw3g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox2wgHqrNy0&fea...
busta said:
It's funny to hear the RX8s fuel economy getting slated so much when plenty of similar cars do just as badly, perhaps even worse when driven properly. Imprezas, Evos, 350zs TTs, S3s, M3s, Focus STs, Astra VXRs and plenty of others are all easily capable of seeing mid-teen mpg on an enthusiastic run. As a family car the fuel economy does seem high, but as a sports car I'd say it's pretty fair.
I think the thing that makes it so noticeable is the price bracket the RX8 falls into. It's a beer priced car with champagne running costs, while all the immediate competition of the same age are still champagne priced cars with champagne running costs. Paying £300 tax on a £15k car sort of adds up. Paying the same £300 tax on a car that only cost £4k seems much harder to stomach.
The RX8s biggest strengths seem to have turned on it to be it's biggest downfalls. It has 4 usable seats, so unlike most other coupes it makes sense on the school run. But it still has the thirst of these less practical coupes, and it seems silly using something un-economical for the school run...
Nice post. The lowest I have ever had for my rx-8 is 14.33 mpg, the highest is 23. As I and the wife do not drive to work, it's only used for long trips through a combination of M-Way, A & B-roads. And each time it's driven it's been driven hard. After all what other car is there where it is recommended to red line it reguarly?I think the thing that makes it so noticeable is the price bracket the RX8 falls into. It's a beer priced car with champagne running costs, while all the immediate competition of the same age are still champagne priced cars with champagne running costs. Paying £300 tax on a £15k car sort of adds up. Paying the same £300 tax on a car that only cost £4k seems much harder to stomach.
The RX8s biggest strengths seem to have turned on it to be it's biggest downfalls. It has 4 usable seats, so unlike most other coupes it makes sense on the school run. But it still has the thirst of these less practical coupes, and it seems silly using something un-economical for the school run...
Another reason for the so-called 'dreadful' mpg, is the fact that you can hold it in each gear for longer than any other car as you have a huge rev-range to play with.
I've known Suburu drivers with as bad mpg, even worse, and with much higher and regular garage bills. Still that must be part of the charachter of the car so thats why we don't get endless threads about it.
rhinochopig said:
Don't be silly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9675TKafw3g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox2wgHqrNy0&fea...
An ex-work collegue of mine was at Le Mans when Mazda won. He said wherever he was that day (at the camp site, fair, away from the racing) you knew the Mazda was flying past as it was so distinctive.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9675TKafw3g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox2wgHqrNy0&fea...
Harji said:
I've known Suburu drivers with as bad mpg, even worse, and with much higher and regular garage bills. Still that must be part of the charachter of the car so thats why we don't get endless threads about it.
The STI can justify the high MPG on the grounds of being more practical, considerably faster and having an AWD system. A spec c STI will also comfortably outhandle an RX8. I'm not convinced that the RX-8 is more reliable than a Subaru either, you hear a lot of stories of engines dieing at 60k. Edit: I'm not saying that any of the above makes the STI the better drivers car, they're aimed at different markets of course, but I think there a good reasons why people are more accepting of the low MPG in cars like RS's, Evo's, STI's, M3's etc.
Edited by superman84 on Tuesday 19th April 09:33
superman84 said:
Harji said:
I've known Suburu drivers with as bad mpg, even worse, and with much higher and regular garage bills. Still that must be part of the charachter of the car so thats why we don't get endless threads about it.
The STI can justify the high MPG on the grounds of being more practical, considerably faster and having an AWD system. A spec c STI will also comfortably outhandle an RX8. I'm not convinced that the RX-8 is more reliable than a Subaru either, you hear a lot of stories of engines dieing at 60k. JonnyFive said:
superman84 said:
Harji said:
I've known Suburu drivers with as bad mpg, even worse, and with much higher and regular garage bills. Still that must be part of the charachter of the car so thats why we don't get endless threads about it.
The STI can justify the high MPG on the grounds of being more practical, considerably faster and having an AWD system. A spec c STI will also comfortably outhandle an RX8. I'm not convinced that the RX-8 is more reliable than a Subaru either, you hear a lot of stories of engines dieing at 60k. Harji said:
Nice post. The lowest I have ever had for my rx-8 is 14.33 mpg, the highest is 23. As I and the wife do not drive to work, it's only used for long trips through a combination of M-Way, A & B-roads. And each time it's driven it's been driven hard. After all what other car is there where it is recommended to red line it reguarly?
Another reason for the so-called 'dreadful' mpg, is the fact that you can hold it in each gear for longer than any other car as you have a huge rev-range to play with.
I've known Suburu drivers with as bad mpg, even worse, and with much higher and regular garage bills. Still that must be part of the charachter of the car so thats why we don't get endless threads about it.
As much of a supporter of the RX-8 as I am (and I am as I'd like to buy one Another reason for the so-called 'dreadful' mpg, is the fact that you can hold it in each gear for longer than any other car as you have a huge rev-range to play with.
I've known Suburu drivers with as bad mpg, even worse, and with much higher and regular garage bills. Still that must be part of the charachter of the car so thats why we don't get endless threads about it.
).I do think that buying a RX-8 for HP and straight line speed is false economy. Not saying it's slow, as it isn't. But it's just not as fast as some alternatives. I think you need to buy one as a 4 seater Elise type car. All about handling and driving it hard to get the most from it.
But mpg is poor. There's no way of denying it. I say this as someone who runs a bigger heavier V8 powered car making 100hp+ more yet still manages a modal average of 24mpg with highs of 30mpg.
300bhp/ton said:
I do think that buying a RX-8 for HP and straight line speed is false economy. Not saying it's slow, as it isn't. But it's just not as fast as some alternatives. I think you need to buy one as a 4 seater Elise type car. All about handling and driving it hard to get the most from it.
This gets to the centre of what the car is about. If you look at figures you will never see the point because there isn't one. The handling and feel of the car is the whole reason behind the rotary and justifies it IMO.Reliability concerns are overdone, and the old chestnut of oil use is a complete red herring as well. I was looking at an old copy of Evo the other day where they had a buying guide for the S2000, in that a specialist stated that they use 1 litre of oil every 800-1000 miles, that is considerably more than my RX8 gets through but we never hear stories about how they use "more oil than fuel."
Ah well, the only good point is that values are so low that it will never be worth me selling my RX8 so when I replace it I'll just strip it out and turn it into a trag slag.
JonnyFive said:
superman84 said:
Harji said:
I've known Suburu drivers with as bad mpg, even worse, and with much higher and regular garage bills. Still that must be part of the charachter of the car so thats why we don't get endless threads about it.
The STI can justify the high MPG on the grounds of being more practical, considerably faster and having an AWD system. A spec c STI will also comfortably outhandle an RX8. I'm not convinced that the RX-8 is more reliable than a Subaru either, you hear a lot of stories of engines dieing at 60k. http://mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t...
mazda rotary club member said:
: Clive the World Wide Engine Count replacement is now 50,000, about one third of the cars made....Mazda NOT happy...
So much for the Bulldust MME told you....
So much for the Bulldust MME told you....
another mazda rotary club member said:
Have the full service history, with a Mazda main dealer, my car ran like new too, then one day 60k on the clock, engine warning light comes on. I immeadiatley drive the car to an authorised dealer (10 miles - engine light on (not flashing)with slight loss off power). They put it in on the diagnostic - report said EPS problem, check coil pack, HT lead or spark plug. Advised that car would be okay for me to driver to my regular garage (approx 20 miles). Needless to say it didnt make it. The car just lost power after about 5 miles (and I really was treating it gently). I had it towed to the garage, to be informed loss of engine compression plus cat burnt as well. All this in the space of 15 miles. The cost to repair is £5,300 - pretty .... dont you think, even the diagnostics didnt help and probably contributed to the cat needing replacing. So just how many more out there with similar problems!
I think a third of units failing is a pretty poor record.rb5230 said:
JonnyFive said:
superman84 said:
Harji said:
I've known Suburu drivers with as bad mpg, even worse, and with much higher and regular garage bills. Still that must be part of the charachter of the car so thats why we don't get endless threads about it.
The STI can justify the high MPG on the grounds of being more practical, considerably faster and having an AWD system. A spec c STI will also comfortably outhandle an RX8. I'm not convinced that the RX-8 is more reliable than a Subaru either, you hear a lot of stories of engines dieing at 60k. http://mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t...
mazda rotary club member said:
: Clive the World Wide Engine Count replacement is now 50,000, about one third of the cars made....Mazda NOT happy...
So much for the Bulldust MME told you....
So much for the Bulldust MME told you....
another mazda rotary club member said:
Have the full service history, with a Mazda main dealer, my car ran like new too, then one day 60k on the clock, engine warning light comes on. I immeadiatley drive the car to an authorised dealer (10 miles - engine light on (not flashing)with slight loss off power). They put it in on the diagnostic - report said EPS problem, check coil pack, HT lead or spark plug. Advised that car would be okay for me to driver to my regular garage (approx 20 miles). Needless to say it didnt make it. The car just lost power after about 5 miles (and I really was treating it gently). I had it towed to the garage, to be informed loss of engine compression plus cat burnt as well. All this in the space of 15 miles. The cost to repair is £5,300 - pretty .... dont you think, even the diagnostics didnt help and probably contributed to the cat needing replacing. So just how many more out there with similar problems!
I think a third of units failing is a pretty poor record.I beleive there is also a count on the owners forum of members with replaced engines. Which is far lower than the claims you are making.
Btw - why not see how many M3's had replacemednt engines due to Nikasil issues or VANOS?
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff