Porsche 911 for £20k......but which one? 993/996/997
Discussion
So after a 10 year gap in 911 ownership I am making a return, I used to have a 3.2 carrera as my daily drive but alias when my son got to 8 years and started getting neck problems i thought it might be time for a car change. Sold my lovely 3.2 for £10k, seems like i should have kept it!
Anyway back to present day, i have around £20k although could be a bit more if i was tempted. I love the idea of a 993 but although people say they are bullet proof etc. probably will need some money spent on any that are priced under £25k and i just can't justify £30k. So there we are, left with a 996 or a 997. As much as do like the 996 the front light design was a mistake, and comparing to the 997 looks wise i think it's hard to argue the 997 is the pretty car and unlike most i like the narrower body.
So i am stuck on the 997, however initially i was very put off with what somebody described as 'their chocolate engine', however looking into this and using my engineering background it's not so bad as i thought, although one can probably not argue that 997 2005-2008 do have some issues with ims bearing and probably more relevant is the cylinder scoring, so perhaps waiting for a gen 2 car is probably the wise choice. (The 3.2 carrera after they sorted out the gearbox was always supposed to be a great car and it was, 5 + years and only ever £500 service costs each year)
However i am now thinking that actually if you plan to keep a 997 gen 1 (2005-2008) car for a long while perhaps it does make sense. Any Porsche you keep for long enough will require an engine rebuild, so if you accept this then paying around £20k for a great looking car where there seems to be lots of people around (Hartec for example) that seem to know pretty well how to rebuild these engines then it's not a bad deal?
What do you recon - does this logic make sense or if so a higher mileage or lower mileage.......
Anyway back to present day, i have around £20k although could be a bit more if i was tempted. I love the idea of a 993 but although people say they are bullet proof etc. probably will need some money spent on any that are priced under £25k and i just can't justify £30k. So there we are, left with a 996 or a 997. As much as do like the 996 the front light design was a mistake, and comparing to the 997 looks wise i think it's hard to argue the 997 is the pretty car and unlike most i like the narrower body.
So i am stuck on the 997, however initially i was very put off with what somebody described as 'their chocolate engine', however looking into this and using my engineering background it's not so bad as i thought, although one can probably not argue that 997 2005-2008 do have some issues with ims bearing and probably more relevant is the cylinder scoring, so perhaps waiting for a gen 2 car is probably the wise choice. (The 3.2 carrera after they sorted out the gearbox was always supposed to be a great car and it was, 5 + years and only ever £500 service costs each year)
However i am now thinking that actually if you plan to keep a 997 gen 1 (2005-2008) car for a long while perhaps it does make sense. Any Porsche you keep for long enough will require an engine rebuild, so if you accept this then paying around £20k for a great looking car where there seems to be lots of people around (Hartec for example) that seem to know pretty well how to rebuild these engines then it's not a bad deal?
What do you recon - does this logic make sense or if so a higher mileage or lower mileage.......
Aircooled all the way. 
I have a 993, its done 123000 miles, FSH at OPC and the last major 48K had three points to keep an eye on.
1, Engine cover struts weak - Replace
2, Drive boot slight tear but not cut - No action required
3, Heater pipe frayed - No action required
Total out lay £36.00 on top of service.
I will not sell mine, but really it needs nothing, it does cost around 1K a year to run and keep on top of stuff and somethings need doing that only need sorting every 60K miles, like new dampers etc. Mine is still on her original clutch for example.
Reason for the waffle? Mine is a 4 owner, NB 6 speed with sports seats, pre vario. If I put her on the market tomorrow, I'be be asking around 22.5K. In other words, they are about around 25K, that need little to keep tiptop.
One last thing, dont get hung up with paint or concour condition. History and maintenance is everything. Just get out and drive her.
Leave the garage queens to the ... well garage queens.
Best of luck with your search
I have a 993, its done 123000 miles, FSH at OPC and the last major 48K had three points to keep an eye on.
1, Engine cover struts weak - Replace
2, Drive boot slight tear but not cut - No action required
3, Heater pipe frayed - No action required
Total out lay £36.00 on top of service.
I will not sell mine, but really it needs nothing, it does cost around 1K a year to run and keep on top of stuff and somethings need doing that only need sorting every 60K miles, like new dampers etc. Mine is still on her original clutch for example.
Reason for the waffle? Mine is a 4 owner, NB 6 speed with sports seats, pre vario. If I put her on the market tomorrow, I'be be asking around 22.5K. In other words, they are about around 25K, that need little to keep tiptop.
One last thing, dont get hung up with paint or concour condition. History and maintenance is everything. Just get out and drive her.
Leave the garage queens to the ... well garage queens.
Best of luck with your search
I do like the 993, and if you have a good one it's definitely a keeper, but finding a good one that will be low maintenance is not easy - a bit like women really, and nobody wants an old supermodel that is on the one hand high maintenance and on the other doesn't look as good at she once did !
Have to say even though a prefer the narrow 911, the 996 turbo is very tempting, who doesn't want a boost gauge. I do wonder how much they would cost to maintenance over the NA model, and i wonder if they are that hard to work on............perhaps i am getting off the 997 track now !!
Have to say even though a prefer the narrow 911, the 996 turbo is very tempting, who doesn't want a boost gauge. I do wonder how much they would cost to maintenance over the NA model, and i wonder if they are that hard to work on............perhaps i am getting off the 997 track now !!
YoungMD said:
I do like the 993, and if you have a good one it's definitely a keeper, but finding a good one that will be low maintenance is not easy - a bit like women really, and nobody wants an old supermodel that is on the one hand high maintenance and on the other doesn't look as good at she once did !
Have to say even though a prefer the narrow 911, the 996 turbo is very tempting, who doesn't want a boost gauge. I do wonder how much they would cost to maintenance over the NA model, and i wonder if they are that hard to work on............perhaps i am getting off the 997 track now !!
I was in your situation and I went for a 993. Best decision ever. I got a really nice example for less than £19k negotiated down after the PPI from 20k. I have spend about a grand and she probably needs another couple to be perfect but then I have a mint 993 with 91000 on the clock for 22K.Have to say even though a prefer the narrow 911, the 996 turbo is very tempting, who doesn't want a boost gauge. I do wonder how much they would cost to maintenance over the NA model, and i wonder if they are that hard to work on............perhaps i am getting off the 997 track now !!
If you want a manual/coupe/varioram forget it, you are looking at 2-3K more for each of those variables. I love my tip/cab/pre-vario to be honest. I would have liked a manual but the tip is a very relaxing drive and she kicks nicely when you want her to. Best of all I am unlikely to get much depreciation. I hoping she will go up in value.
996s are very good value but I see them in a 964 position...a clunky evolutionary step between two great 911s. They are never going to be a classic but that is a lot of car for the money. Personally I find it difficult to get past the boxter headlights but I might change my mind. I was a 3.2 man but ended up getting a 993.
Get out there and get the best car available and have a blast!
ChrisW. said:
Values have firmed ---I think I'd be looking for the best late G50 3.2 I could get my hands on.
Service history and bodily condition are the most important issues to me ---high mileage would not be a worry to me if the balance was a good body
That might be difficult at 20k. Could go for a miley one though, say 150k, and as long as the car is good etc, go for it!Service history and bodily condition are the most important issues to me ---high mileage would not be a worry to me if the balance was a good body
You'll have to be a bit lucky OP the way things are now with aircooled.
After some building quotes last week I discussed things with the wife and decided to let my GT3 go. Luckily we have maybe found a solution today so I can keep it (I have a cool wife!). Anyway to the point, I was going to be left with £20k ish for a Porsche and after a weekend scouring the classifieds I was thoroughly fed up. I couldn't get excited about anything at all.
There's an ok looking cat C 993 C2 manual on the bay for £19k. It would need a proper going over though, as supposedly not been damaged, just fire damaged. Honest Guvnor!
I was down to 996 C4S Cab for weekends away or some sort of 3.2 Carrera but they can hide rust quite well until it's your problem.
Good luck, keep the thread updated.
After some building quotes last week I discussed things with the wife and decided to let my GT3 go. Luckily we have maybe found a solution today so I can keep it (I have a cool wife!). Anyway to the point, I was going to be left with £20k ish for a Porsche and after a weekend scouring the classifieds I was thoroughly fed up. I couldn't get excited about anything at all.
There's an ok looking cat C 993 C2 manual on the bay for £19k. It would need a proper going over though, as supposedly not been damaged, just fire damaged. Honest Guvnor!
I was down to 996 C4S Cab for weekends away or some sort of 3.2 Carrera but they can hide rust quite well until it's your problem.
Good luck, keep the thread updated.
The comments are great! The 993 is really the ideal car as it looks great but from what i see it is not easy to get a good example for £25k, i do want a mannual 2 really, getting any decent 993 for £20k i think is a good deal, the only one 93 i can see out there is the x-fire damage death trap on ebay and paying near £20k for something that has been set on fire seems not a great move.
The 996 Anniversary at 911virgin does look V nice and it probably the 996 i would go for.....but then i was sidetracked by the white 3.2 carrera very similar to my last car, although at over £30k it's not a bargain - A sound investment at over £30k ermmm ? so where it all brings me back to is that the 993 looks i love but for £20 or £25k i will struggle to get a really nice one, so with the 997 looking similar and having better handling, if you ignor the engine issues they are great cars and at probably £20 to £23k for a very good one isn't this a bit of a bargain? and if it's pre 2006 then low tax as well!
I think the turbo is out, lovely lovely car but just too big and wide i think, and the temptation to feel that turbo would seriously endanger the licence....
The 996 Anniversary at 911virgin does look V nice and it probably the 996 i would go for.....but then i was sidetracked by the white 3.2 carrera very similar to my last car, although at over £30k it's not a bargain - A sound investment at over £30k ermmm ? so where it all brings me back to is that the 993 looks i love but for £20 or £25k i will struggle to get a really nice one, so with the 997 looking similar and having better handling, if you ignor the engine issues they are great cars and at probably £20 to £23k for a very good one isn't this a bit of a bargain? and if it's pre 2006 then low tax as well!
I think the turbo is out, lovely lovely car but just too big and wide i think, and the temptation to feel that turbo would seriously endanger the licence....
That is a very nice 997, 997 do generally seem good value at 20 - 24 and they must become a classic in the future I would guess, maybe they will be pulled down by the engine bad press but I don't see people as worried about the 996 as they once were and I'm guessing in 5/10 years people will imagine that most 997's still going will either have had their engines sorted or if not will probably be okay. I'm sure the gen 2 will always fetch more money but I'm guessing it will be a bit like the 993's vario cam engine, yes people prefer it now but Who would be put off by an early 993 now ?
I see virgin911 have got another 993 now....
I see virgin911 have got another 993 now....
YoungMD said:
That is a very nice 997, 997 do generally seem good value at 20 - 24 and they must become a classic in the future I would guess, maybe they will be pulled down by the engine bad press but I don't see people as worried about the 996 as they once were and I'm guessing in 5/10 years people will imagine that most 997's still going will either have had their engines sorted or if not will probably be okay. I'm sure the gen 2 will always fetch more money but I'm guessing it will be a bit like the 993's vario cam engine, yes people prefer it now but Who would be put off by an early 993 now ?
I see virgin911 have got another 993 now....
I think a 997 would be a great buy. I'm not sure they will go much lower, definitely not as low as 996s. I think a 3.8S would be a blast for the money and it looks like there are good examples out there. It might be a while before they are classic and start to gain value, largely due to the fact that there must have been gazillions more made than 993s for example...anyone got any figures on that? I see virgin911 have got another 993 now....
Personally, I would have thought that in your budget range the 997 has to be the way to go: the best balance of value, usability, quality, looks in the price range by far. I also would not overlook the 3.6 Carrera, as it is supposedly a lovely engine and in the real world would not be much slower. I agree the values are unlikely to go up any time soon, as so many were made: this really was a relatively high volume car, much more so than 993s, or the earlier air-cooled 911s. If you could find a 993, clearly that would be a better bet for value appreciation. (I'm biased, I just bought one with that rationale being a partial factor, especially whilst 964s are flavour of the month and climbing in value; alongside the fact it's air-cooled and looks great, and the last proper 911 before they got a bit tubby and GT oriented).
I'm really not advocating buying for investment value as the primary criterion, by the way: IMO best to buy the car you want to own and drive, and enjoy it. None of these cars are likely to go all the way like the early 70s 911S have shot up in value. But let me play devils advocate a moment...
It's all speculation, but could the 996 be actually a better investment proposition? The 996s, it seems to me, have a chance of going the way of the 964s: unloved for a fair stint, problematic engines (but those still around should be ok?) and brittle interiors compared to the previous model 911s, and as they have got so cheap many will be run on shoestrings and many of these will 'die' as they become uneconomic to repair/get up to scratch. To my eyes, the 996s are starting to look sort of classic: lovely clean and unfussy lines, even if to many the boxster front with egg yoke lights wasn't pretty. I happen to disagree: I personally think the design is ageing rather well. But I'm probably in a minority on that one! Who knows...
More to the point, what a high quality problem to have ;-)
Any of these cars will put a smile on your face. I use mine as a third fun car, and I just went for a spin earlier this evening: what a great car it is! I'm sure you are going to be happy whatever you decide. Best of luck.
I'm really not advocating buying for investment value as the primary criterion, by the way: IMO best to buy the car you want to own and drive, and enjoy it. None of these cars are likely to go all the way like the early 70s 911S have shot up in value. But let me play devils advocate a moment...
It's all speculation, but could the 996 be actually a better investment proposition? The 996s, it seems to me, have a chance of going the way of the 964s: unloved for a fair stint, problematic engines (but those still around should be ok?) and brittle interiors compared to the previous model 911s, and as they have got so cheap many will be run on shoestrings and many of these will 'die' as they become uneconomic to repair/get up to scratch. To my eyes, the 996s are starting to look sort of classic: lovely clean and unfussy lines, even if to many the boxster front with egg yoke lights wasn't pretty. I happen to disagree: I personally think the design is ageing rather well. But I'm probably in a minority on that one! Who knows...
More to the point, what a high quality problem to have ;-)
Any of these cars will put a smile on your face. I use mine as a third fun car, and I just went for a spin earlier this evening: what a great car it is! I'm sure you are going to be happy whatever you decide. Best of luck.
Just a clarification: I'm proposing the first 3.4 litre 996 as an alternative, contrarian choice... not the later 3.6 engined cars with the modified lights. It's the earlier cars that I think are starting to look a bit classic, or at least have the potential... that's my view anyway. Probably rubbish, what do I know?!
Just a clarification: I'm proposing the first 3.4 litre 996 as an alternative, contrarian choice... not the later 3.6 engined cars with the modified lights. It's the earlier cars that I think are starting to look a bit classic, or at least have the potential... that's my view anyway. Probably rubbish, what do I know?!
Outliar said:
Just a clarification: I'm proposing the first 3.4 litre 996 as an alternative, contrarian choice... not the later 3.6 engined cars with the modified lights. It's the earlier cars that I think are starting to look a bit classic, or at least have the potential... that's my view anyway. Probably rubbish, what do I know?!
Thanks for your reply !! so i kind of agree with you and this is my dilemma now ....... A 997 i think is good value for £20k and if you shop around you could probably get a nice one for £20k, although i have only really seen nice ones for £22+ and i agree the earlier 3.6 would be my preferred choice without all that porsche management system and possibly a less stressed engine thus perhaps less cylinder scoring issues, although who knows. BUT then......I saw a very nice 996 2001 3.4 with 50k miles and it was very nice and i agree i think they may start to be loved in a little while once the rubbish ones have gone and actually looking around there are not loads of great condition ones, lots of rubbish. The earlier ones do look nice, i think you have to get one where the interior has been looked after or else it just looks like a 90's has been, but there are a few nice ones still around. I wonder if 996 are a bit more easy to work on / sort out as they are a bit more 'old fashion' when compared to the 997 or whether actually the 997 is very similar?
I guess in the end it depends what you are paying, if you get a really well sorted 996 for no more than 13k it's probably a good deal, but all the nice ones i have seen are 15k+ and at that price you might as well pay the extra 5k for those round headlights and better handling......
It's a tricky one YoungMD. I was thinking what would I do...
If you could stretch to 22k, it would be worth it I think to find that extra 2k and get a nice 997. I would really not want an even slightly tatty car, and if the 20k 997 reflects condition it's a false economy as you will spend the difference (maybe more) over time fixing the things that aren't quite right. The other option is a 20k car with higher mileage but loved and pampered, in top condition. Though depreciation and long term value might then be an issue.
The 996 option is amazing value when you think what these cars costed new. And the depreciation is now surely finished. I've read quite a bit about the early cars having fragile interiors, and that would concern me a bit, but it you bought a really good one I think it would be a great drive. The first 996 model with 3.4 engine was very highly rated by Evo magazine, a great drivers car. I haven't driven these models, so can't advise from experience.
Good luck!
If you could stretch to 22k, it would be worth it I think to find that extra 2k and get a nice 997. I would really not want an even slightly tatty car, and if the 20k 997 reflects condition it's a false economy as you will spend the difference (maybe more) over time fixing the things that aren't quite right. The other option is a 20k car with higher mileage but loved and pampered, in top condition. Though depreciation and long term value might then be an issue.
The 996 option is amazing value when you think what these cars costed new. And the depreciation is now surely finished. I've read quite a bit about the early cars having fragile interiors, and that would concern me a bit, but it you bought a really good one I think it would be a great drive. The first 996 model with 3.4 engine was very highly rated by Evo magazine, a great drivers car. I haven't driven these models, so can't advise from experience.
Good luck!
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