Running costs for a 15 year old 996

[spanky3]

Afternoon,

I'm considering a 1998 996 3.4 Tiptronic with 100k on the clock for just shy of £10k. Insurance is around the £600 mark so that's ok but how common do you lucky owners find horrendous service bills, engine refreshes and so on?

My heart's telling me to buy but the tight-arse monkey part of my head thinks I'll be spending £5k a year on engine and suspension work.

Any real-life experience to warn me off?

thanks
Spanky.

[V8KSN]

spanky3 said:

Afternoon,

I'm considering a 1998 996 3.4 Tiptronic with 100k on the clock for just shy of £10k. Insurance is around the £600 mark so that's ok but how common do you lucky owners find horrendous service bills, engine refreshes and so on?

My heart's telling me to buy but the tight-arse monkey part of my head thinks I'll be spending £5k a year on engine and suspension work.

Any real-life experience to warn me off?

thanks
Spanky.

Have you done your research on the M96 engine?

If not, I suggest you have a root around as that may give you an idea of what to (potentially) expect to replace on a 100k tiptronic 996.

[spanky3]

Hi, thanks for the quick reply. I've read a bit about issues with the first water-cooled engine but not sure know how big a problem it is in reality.

As an example I've owned a couple of 2 litre BMWs with the 'infamous' N47 engine without issue - I always wonder if problems like that appear to be more common than they are as only angry customers post on forums.

I'll do some more reading and see if it scares me off,...or makes me look for something air-cooled.

[Magic919]

Have you read the poverty pork thread yet? http://www.pistonheads.com/GASSING/topic.asp?h=0&a...

The 996 sounds a bit dear, but it might be a great example. Things like rads, condensers and coil packs are possible expenses. I did those plus clutch and DMF on one of my 996s. Get a sorted one and you'll be ok for a few years. Find someone to help you look after it.

[stuckmojo]

I ran mine (996 C2 Manual) from 98,000miles to 126,000miles in circa 18 months and the expenses have been:


Discs and pads (300) - front
Discs and pads (220) - rear
IMS bearing replacement with oil change and Pelican Parts bearing (500 all in)
2 front tyres (200) Falken, very good
1 light bulb (7.99 Halfords, rip off)

Major service @ OPC Porsche (399 fixed cost)

then MOT and insurance.

I hope this helps.

FYI, the best car I have ever had and I will never sell it. (Now it's in storage until I move back to the UK)

edited to add (Miles instead of KM) - Sorry for not using the pound sign but my keyboard does not have it.

Edited by stuckmojo on Friday 20th June 03:27

[g7jhp]

It's worth spending a bit of time finding a nice car which the current owner has done all the jobs on.

- IMS
- Rads
- Brakes and pads
- Tyres

Worth getting an independent inspection as a few issues will cost you far more than the cost of the inspection and you can always use it to negotiate on the price.

Plus I'd suggest going for a manual C2 coupe as historically they hold their value best!

[was8v]

The very first 1998 and 1999 M96 cars had a double row IMS bearing and a piston coating that was discontinued.

At some point around 2000 Porsche changed to an inferior IMS bearing which has led to all the hoo-ha about IMS bearings blighting the M96. This is evidenced in the US class action case which shows the failure numbers for each year of production.

Around the same time the piston coating was changed to an inferior plastic coating (for H&S reasons in production), this inferior coating breaks down more easily and has led to the reputation of the M96 scoring its bores (more prevalent on the 3.6).

So the earliest appear to have the most robust engines, however these are all likely 100k+ miles by now, and an engine of that mileage could fail for any number of reasons (chain tensioners worn etc) so go into ownership with you eyes open.

The M96 is an utterly fantastic engine - I drive a 1999 3.4 on 117k. FYI I do all my own servicing and repair work and I have spent £1800 in a year getting my car perfect (suspension refresh etc) but the initial cost of the car reflected this. I don't expect to spend any more for a while.

The 996 makes a lot of sense - a lot of parts are shared with the Boxster and then sold millions of them. This means parts prices are MUCH cheaper than previous Porsches, inline with mass produced cars.

Edited by was8v on Friday 20th June 09:56

[edh]

g7jhp said:

It's worth spending a bit of time finding a nice car which the current owner has done all the jobs on.

- IMS
- Rads
- Brakes and pads
- Tyres

Worth getting an independent inspection as a few issues will cost you far more than the cost of the inspection and you can always use it to negotiate on the price.

Plus I'd suggest going for a manual C2 coupe as historically they hold their value best!

- suspension arms, dampers, droplinks, aircon condensers

[was8v]

Some links to backup what I said:
M96.1 (3.4 cars) have a more robust dual row rather than single row IMS bearing: http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=87529&highlig...

Piston coating (see bazhart from hartech's posts): http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=90714

bazhart said:

What he did not mention is that apart from a very small production run of forged pistons with ferrous coatings (the coatings that were on all the cast pistons and that never caused bore scoring) all subsequent forged pistons had a "plastic" screen printed coating that is non metallic in M96 and M97 engines and Cayenne's.

The plastic coating applied has a lower surface hardness than a ferrous coating and the bonding to the piston surface is different than an electroplated one and we all know from experiences with coated sauce and frying pans that the bonding life is limited with heat being a contributory factor (which does not affect ferrous coatings the same way).

As I say though, an engine can fail for hundreds of reasons, and the 3.4 is not perfect! Early in production they had problems with a few porous blocks leading to "D chunking" of the cylinder wall - however after 15 years and 100k miles that will have shown itself!

Inspect well and buy the nicest car you can afford Don't let the internet and "Porsche Paranoia" put you off.

Edited by was8v on Friday 20th June 10:16

[spanky3]

Hello all, thanks for the useful responses which has given me enough info to do some more reading.

I had a read through the 'poverty porker thread' (not all of the 75 pages but most), lots of interesting stuff but still set on a 911 of some sort. My plan is to replace the wife's car with the 996 so we end up with one sensible family car and a 2+2 that I can still pick the kids up in occasionally.

I'm also happy doing routine and some not so routine servicing myself so brakes, suspension etc are probably ok although I haven't looked up spares prices yet. It's really the catastrophic engine failure scenario that worries me given I'll only be looking at high milers. An IMS replacement at around £1500 doesn't sound like a bad insurance policy but good advice about trying to find a ready-sorted car. Interesting that the earliest ones are possibly the more robust, too. I'll look into that.

thanks all,
James.

[spanky3]

Just to follow up on the last couple of posts - Stuckmojo, thanks for list of your servicing costs, they look pretty reassuring.

Agree about 'Porsche paranoia' - it's easy to get scared off by horror stories but as I said earlier, happy people rarely feel the need to tell their story.

And finally - yes, 2d coupe is what I'm after but unfortunately the wife can only (barely) drive an auto. The 320d family car has the towbar for my bike trailer so there will be occasions we have to swap cars - that rules out a manual.

[R26Andy]

Basic DIY suspension refresh (low control arms and coffin arms) @ £250 and then alignment @ £85.

IMS replacement, I had a cylindrical roller bearing and oil pump modification carried out. Since they were removing the exhaust, the exhaust flange gaskets and exhaust clamps/bolts were also replaced with stainless ones. Total cost was £730 (Does NOT include labour to remove engine and gearbox as this was paid for by the warranty company repairing the gearbox).

Oil pressure sender - £50 (common failure)

Minor service - £235

DIY Low tone horn replacement - £25 (common failure)

[LordHaveMurci]

Had my 3.4 C2 manual for 5yrs now, I budget £200pm for servicing, maintenance, tyres etc. Just picked it up from local Indie this morning having passed another MoT & with a small service the bill was under £250.00 big 4yr service is about £500 from memory as it needs belts etc.
Coolant & brake fluid changed every 2 years as per schedule, probably doesn't need it but I'm quite anal about things like that.

In 5yrs it has had: 6 x coilpacks (warranty), 1 x battery, 1 x clutch (£700), header tank (£200ish), waterpump (approx £500), aircon condensors (£500ish), front brakes (£500), 1 x coffin arm (250ish). Two full sets of tyres, rear MPS2's last approx 6k mls, fronts much longer.
Just had insurance renewal, £375 before haggling, aged 44 in a good area, kept on drive with full NCD & clean license.

Have been advised on MoT it needs exhaust (quoted £1200!), front brake pipes & possibly front brake discs at or before next MoT.

Fantastic cars, we have 2 kids aged 13 & 10, they sit in the back for several hours sometimes with no complaints, sure that will start to change as they won't stop growing! I only do 2-2.5k mls per annum, probably double that in the 1st year of ownership.

[spanky3]

Hi, thanks for taking the time to reply. That all sounds ok and your situation's not that dissimilar to mine.

I do now have a car in mind but am 50/50 on whether its service history is a good thing or not. It's a 1998 Tip C2. Current owner bought it a couple of years ago, took it to a well know specialist and found it wasn't as good as he hoped. The 'sorting it out' bill was about 8k, including uprated IMS bearing, various seals including gearbox ones, various bushes, control arms, drop links, brake pipes, hacksawing through corroded bolts etc, tyres, 96k service etc. The workshop notes mention it having a non-standard exhaust.

Part of me looks at the list and thinks 'great, all the bits that wear out have been sorted and anything else I buy will probably need this lot doing to it.' and the other half of me think 'Previous owners neglected it and it will turn into a money pit'.

Decisions, decisions.

[LordHaveMurci]

spanky3 said:

Hi, thanks for taking the time to reply. That all sounds ok and your situation's not that dissimilar to mine.

I do now have a car in mind but am 50/50 on whether its service history is a good thing or not. It's a 1998 Tip C2. Current owner bought it a couple of years ago, took it to a well know specialist and found it wasn't as good as he hoped. The 'sorting it out' bill was about 8k, including uprated IMS bearing, various seals including gearbox ones, various bushes, control arms, drop links, brake pipes, hacksawing through corroded bolts etc, tyres, 96k service etc. The workshop notes mention it having a non-standard exhaust.

Part of me looks at the list and thinks 'great, all the bits that wear out have been sorted and anything else I buy will probably need this lot doing to it.' and the other half of me think 'Previous owners neglected it and it will turn into a money pit'.

Decisions, decisions.

Try to speak to the specialist & see if they'll give you an honest opinion of it, may need the sellers permission 1st?

[mikeyr]

I have stacks of paperwork which came with my 2001 car which I put into a spreadsheet for fun(!). Turns out it averages at £1126 per annum (probably more for tyres and other bills too but not everything is recorded).

That is excluding the cost for one new engine via Porsche and one engine rebuild of said engine by Hartech!

Since the rebuild in early 2012 it has averaged costs of £1800 per year. For a car that has averaged 7000 miles per year.

In my year of ownership it has cost me a grand in servicing, MOT and tyres. Are these unusual costs - well other than the engine issues I don't know as this is my first 911.

When you put the various invoices into Excel it becomes fairly terrifying, thank god it isn't me that has been footing the bills! Would be interesting to see if anyone else has done similar?

[Zoin]

mikeyr said:

Since the rebuild in early 2012 it has averaged costs of £1800 per year. For a car that has averaged 7000 miles per year.

In my year of ownership it has cost me a grand in servicing, MOT and tyres. Are these unusual costs - well other than the engine issues I don't know as this is my first 911.

Would be interesting to see if anyone else has done similar?

That's sounds about right. I do 7-8k a year and, though I haven't done a spreadsheet to get exact costs, I reckon my annual costs have been similar, excluding the Hartech rebuild 18 months ago.

That includes getting the oil changed every year using Millers Nanograde - expensive stuff at around £75 per 5 litres. Many would consider that overkill but Hartech specify it as a warranty condition and I'm inclined to carry on doing it.

I've had a pair of coffin arms replaced and new aircon condensers.

I'm not including optional costs in the above estimate (short-shift gearchange, leather refurb) and costs related to the targa roof (water leakage fix, plus expected roof cables replacement in the near/mid future).

[Shurv]

Ultimately, it's a high end sports car, so won't come with Ford Fiesta running costs. Take the plunge though, and you soon get wrapped up it's personality and anything you need to spend will be a pleasure as each spend makes it better and will keep it running for a long time. Think of it as an ongoing renovation project, when something breaks or wears out, you'll replace it,so the car gets better and better as it gets older. It's a 911, it'll never age, unlike pretty much everything else, however old it gets, it'll still be a 911,and that means special.

[tb1880]

Shurv said:

Ultimately, it's a high end sports car, so won't come with Ford Fiesta running costs. Take the plunge though, and you soon get wrapped up it's personality and anything you need to spend will be a pleasure as each spend makes it better and will keep it running for a long time. Think of it as an ongoing renovation project, when something breaks or wears out, you'll replace it,so the car gets better and better as it gets older. It's a 911, it'll never age, unlike pretty much everything else, however old it gets, it'll still be a 911,and that means special.

Good point, well made Shurv. I agree with you.

[R26Andy]

LordHaveMurci said:

aircon condensors (£500ish), front brakes (£500), 1 x coffin arm (250ish).

These look like OPC prices, I appreciate some people like the car to have full OPC history etc but on the other hand they are reasonably simple if you are handy with a spanner. E.g. A oem quality coffin arm is £70 + DIY fitting + £80 alignment, aftermarket air condensors discussed recomended by another member here are £65 each + £60 regas. I think whether you are going to use OPC, indie or diy should be considered by the op as it makes a huge difference to the running costs.