911 Turbo vs. Turbo S
Discussion
Anyhow back to the poor old OP and his original question which had nothing to do with 997.1 or monster conversions!!
997.2 turbo was manual or PDK, 500PS/493bhp
997.2 turbo S is PDK only, 530PS/523bhp
extra kit on S that was cost option on non-S:
PTV
PCCB
sports chrono
dynamic engine mounts
cornering headlights
19-inch RS Spyder alloys (standard turbo gen 2 alloys a NCO)
kit that not sure if you could spec on non-S cars:
two-tone leather sports seats and doors
performance differences would be negligible but that is a lot of extra kit that was expensive to option on non-S, so depends on price difference of cars you are comparing as to whether its worht it or not.
I really like the two tone seats/doors of S but prefer the design of the standard wheels over the fussy and delicate looking spyder alloys (plus the hassle of getting them off)
S is really a run-out options bundle model much like the 996 turbo S IMHO
997.2 turbo was manual or PDK, 500PS/493bhp
997.2 turbo S is PDK only, 530PS/523bhp
extra kit on S that was cost option on non-S:
PTV
PCCB
sports chrono
dynamic engine mounts
cornering headlights
19-inch RS Spyder alloys (standard turbo gen 2 alloys a NCO)
kit that not sure if you could spec on non-S cars:
two-tone leather sports seats and doors
performance differences would be negligible but that is a lot of extra kit that was expensive to option on non-S, so depends on price difference of cars you are comparing as to whether its worht it or not.
I really like the two tone seats/doors of S but prefer the design of the standard wheels over the fussy and delicate looking spyder alloys (plus the hassle of getting them off)
S is really a run-out options bundle model much like the 996 turbo S IMHO
Isysman said:
the Metzga engine
a kitten just died Edited by Adam B on Monday 28th July 12:37
As far as i remember, those who ordered a Turbo with a very good spec were told about the Turbo S, and s so went for one. So, the likelihood of finding a Turbo with Turbo S spec is pretty rare.
I have seen one Turbo for sale which had everything but PCCB. You could argue this is perfect for someone who would have wanted to track their car. For me though, the PCCB are amazing for road use.
Ultimately, if you have a car with PTV and Sports Chrono it's going to be a much better drive than a Gen 1.
I have seen one Turbo for sale which had everything but PCCB. You could argue this is perfect for someone who would have wanted to track their car. For me though, the PCCB are amazing for road use.
Ultimately, if you have a car with PTV and Sports Chrono it's going to be a much better drive than a Gen 1.
hondansx said:
Ultimately, if you have a car with PTV and Sports Chrono it's going to be a much better drive than a Gen 1.
why? 20bhp more and PTV? Most 997.1 turbos are specced with sports chrono for overboost functionDon't think normal drivers / road driving would reveal a huge difference
Isysman said:
Callughan said:
Wouldn't say murder but FVD you mention would be quicker. Are you talking about Nick's car? Just saying with nothing more than remap a gen 1 manual esp DMS would not be quicker than a turbo S.
You a customer of DMS then? It's quite annoying to see people with no experience of theirs bashing them online. I've spoken to quite a few customers recently and not one has a bad word to say about them. So I'm betting you are not one, you just 'heard of a bloke' or 'have a mate' who had one? I am a customer and my car is excellent after the upgrades.Edited by Callughan on Saturday 26th July 16:02
Edited by Isysman on Monday 28th July 04:47
Adam B said:
hondansx said:
Ultimately, if you have a car with PTV and Sports Chrono it's going to be a much better drive than a Gen 1.
why? 20bhp more and PTV? Most 997.1 turbos are specced with sports chrono for overboost functionDon't think normal drivers / road driving would reveal a huge difference
Maybe have another go when you next have a chance then...
The Gen 2 car has updated PASM (therefore Sports Chrono is not the same), different spring rates, ARB and PTM settings. There is also the the potential of PTV and active engine mounts.
When switching to the Gen 2, i could clearly see that this was a car that Porsche had built to reclaim some lost pride since the arrival of the Nissan GTR. The Gen 2 Turbo S is much more alert, aggressive and...well... like a sports car. And for me, it's a much better car for it.
The PDK choice is a whole other argument, but it puts the car on to a different level of performance compared to the manuals and just adds to the all-round daily ability of the Turbo. If i wanted more interaction, i'd just get a GT3, which has an engine with the characteristics that suits a manual gearchange. That's my two penneth - my advice is to drive both and see what you think!
The Gen 2 car has updated PASM (therefore Sports Chrono is not the same), different spring rates, ARB and PTM settings. There is also the the potential of PTV and active engine mounts.
When switching to the Gen 2, i could clearly see that this was a car that Porsche had built to reclaim some lost pride since the arrival of the Nissan GTR. The Gen 2 Turbo S is much more alert, aggressive and...well... like a sports car. And for me, it's a much better car for it.
The PDK choice is a whole other argument, but it puts the car on to a different level of performance compared to the manuals and just adds to the all-round daily ability of the Turbo. If i wanted more interaction, i'd just get a GT3, which has an engine with the characteristics that suits a manual gearchange. That's my two penneth - my advice is to drive both and see what you think!
I will do if I get the chance
I was impressed with PDK and undoubtably improves real world performance vs my ability in a manual, however 2nd gen was above the budget I was willing to spend on a deprciating asset, and I hate tips so manual it was.
Both gens are great cars and money no object I would love a PDK turbo S, but it is an object so I am very happy with my low miles, good spec 997.1 turbo with Mezger and manual + sports shifter (which I suspect/hope may be the enthusiasts first choice in a few years)
I was impressed with PDK and undoubtably improves real world performance vs my ability in a manual, however 2nd gen was above the budget I was willing to spend on a deprciating asset, and I hate tips so manual it was.
Both gens are great cars and money no object I would love a PDK turbo S, but it is an object so I am very happy with my low miles, good spec 997.1 turbo with Mezger and manual + sports shifter (which I suspect/hope may be the enthusiasts first choice in a few years)
hondansx said:
Maybe have another go when you next have a chance then...
The Gen 2 car has updated PASM (therefore Sports Chrono is not the same), different spring rates, ARB and PTM settings. There is also the the potential of PTV and active engine mounts.
When switching to the Gen 2, i could clearly see that this was a car that Porsche had built to reclaim some lost pride since the arrival of the Nissan GTR. The Gen 2 Turbo S is much more alert, aggressive and...well... like a sports car. And for me, it's a much better car for it.
The PDK choice is a whole other argument, but it puts the car on to a different level of performance compared to the manuals and just adds to the all-round daily ability of the Turbo. If i wanted more interaction, i'd just get a GT3, which has an engine with the characteristics that suits a manual gearchange. That's my two penneth - my advice is to drive both and see what you think!
Also 35lbs lighter, feels much tighter especially at high speed and track.The Gen 2 car has updated PASM (therefore Sports Chrono is not the same), different spring rates, ARB and PTM settings. There is also the the potential of PTV and active engine mounts.
When switching to the Gen 2, i could clearly see that this was a car that Porsche had built to reclaim some lost pride since the arrival of the Nissan GTR. The Gen 2 Turbo S is much more alert, aggressive and...well... like a sports car. And for me, it's a much better car for it.
The PDK choice is a whole other argument, but it puts the car on to a different level of performance compared to the manuals and just adds to the all-round daily ability of the Turbo. If i wanted more interaction, i'd just get a GT3, which has an engine with the characteristics that suits a manual gearchange. That's my two penneth - my advice is to drive both and see what you think!
OP, if you have any more questions after reading this little lot then by all means fire away:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=28&...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=28&...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Adam B said:
I will do if I get the chance
I was impressed with PDK and undoubtably improves real world performance vs my ability in a manual, however 2nd gen was above the budget I was willing to spend on a deprciating asset, and I hate tips so manual it was.
Both gens are great cars and money no object I would love a PDK turbo S, but it is an object so I am very happy with my low miles, good spec 997.1 turbo with Mezger and manual + sports shifter (which I suspect/hope may be the enthusiasts first choice in a few years)
For sure a manual Gen 1 Turbo, especially a later one with the updated PCM, represents really good value. As such they'll always be in demand. I personally think the Mezger element is inconsequential (the Gen 2 hasn't blown up yet!), but i'm sure that connection will definitely help values for the Gen 1.I was impressed with PDK and undoubtably improves real world performance vs my ability in a manual, however 2nd gen was above the budget I was willing to spend on a deprciating asset, and I hate tips so manual it was.
Both gens are great cars and money no object I would love a PDK turbo S, but it is an object so I am very happy with my low miles, good spec 997.1 turbo with Mezger and manual + sports shifter (which I suspect/hope may be the enthusiasts first choice in a few years)
It may do however you'll need to get the mezger in to 750-800bhp territory for it to be really worthwhile.
A simple remap and exhaust tweak on a gen2 turbo and it will do 0-200kmh in around 9.1 seconds which is about half a second quicker than a gt2 RS.
Then gen2 might not have the strongest engine but all the other components around it are great out of the box.
I find the gen 2 pdk acceleration faintly terrifying without any tweaks at all.
A simple remap and exhaust tweak on a gen2 turbo and it will do 0-200kmh in around 9.1 seconds which is about half a second quicker than a gt2 RS.
Then gen2 might not have the strongest engine but all the other components around it are great out of the box.
I find the gen 2 pdk acceleration faintly terrifying without any tweaks at all.
Edited by Carl_Docklands on Monday 28th July 15:56
Has the OP done a runner?
Well if you haven't, have a read of this...
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2011-aston...
Well if you haven't, have a read of this...
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2011-aston...
Turbo S is incredible precisely because of the PDK. The PDK defines the whole experience. If you want a manual car with more interaction then get a GT3 but if you want a turbo, then IMO the turbo S PDK is not only the best Turbo ever (except 991) but also the most convincing 997 in the whole range.
Callughan said:
My bet was first I do have experience hence why I was unimpressed, mainly with a 997 turbo cab with dms and miltek and it did not feel that much faster than stock and had to really push againt 997.2s pdk we were with until higher speeds. Also other DMS cars at the meets I used to arrange and on track days didn't seem to carry the power they quote. Of course negative forum talk, articles etc will have an influence but this is judging on what I have seen. As I have said before if you are happy than that is what counts, but gen 1 manual with just a DMS remap cannot beat a 7TS.
My comment was to have it modified to be faster than an S, I didn't say just get a remap. You are probably right that just a remap wouldn't do it.Isysman said:
Callughan said:
My bet was first I do have experience hence why I was unimpressed, mainly with a 997 turbo cab with dms and miltek and it did not feel that much faster than stock and had to really push againt 997.2s pdk we were with until higher speeds. Also other DMS cars at the meets I used to arrange and on track days didn't seem to carry the power they quote. Of course negative forum talk, articles etc will have an influence but this is judging on what I have seen. As I have said before if you are happy than that is what counts, but gen 1 manual with just a DMS remap cannot beat a 7TS.
My comment was to have it modified to be faster than an S, I didn't say just get a remap. You are probably right that just a remap wouldn't do it.Adam B said:
Anyhow back to the poor old OP and his original question which had nothing to do with 997.1 or monster conversions!!
Well not exactly, the topic did go a bit sideways but his question was about Turbo or Turbo S, I think gen.1 is a viable choice and is therefore within the boundaries of said topic.I think pdk, ptv, etc makes for a very capable and exciting drive. I guess the OP could test drive both models to decide if the S or high spec non S with all the kit was worth premium over the cooking standard spec turbo.
The gen 2 turbo vs modded gen 1 turbo scenario is very interesting and one I obsessed over greatly before going gen 2. A decent late gen 1 997 turbo will cost you £50k (?) to buy and then to make a proper road weapon min £10-15k inc. VAT would be required to install **reputable and proven** 540 hp remap / sports exhaust / cats, uprated intercoolers (eg GT2 RS units), air filter, uprated clutch, Bilstein or similar suspension, upgraded brakes (for non pccb cars), etc. This budget excludes any repairs and overhaul work required during the mod work due to age and / or wear e.g O2 sensors, hoses, seals, turbo work, etc. This would create a very, very fast road car that would handle wondrously .... how would compare to the say gen 2 turbo S cross country I guess comes down to drivers, etc. At v-max style event the two cars should achieve similar speeds over same distance?
The moot point here for me was that you are spending pretty much the same £ in creating modded gen 1 as buying nice gen 2. Further if you want to soundly trounce a gen 2 you would be upgrading turbos on gen 1 plus other work to achieve a **real** 600 hp, so adding another say min £5k to modding budget.
I decided to go gen 2 due to wanting turn key OPC warrantied ownership experience, and not be worried should any mechanical failure occur, etc.
Creating a modded turbo monster is great and very exciting, the rush when on the gas is unparalleled and makes the factory offering seem almost pedestrian. From experience of owning modded 993 turbo in the past, the monster turbo route is worthwhile sojourning if you are looking to keep for long time, accept fact it will cost more to run ref repairs / periodic overhaul, understand you will have limited or no warranty cover, and will be difficult (price dependent) to sell further down the line.
Where has the OP gone ?
The gen 2 turbo vs modded gen 1 turbo scenario is very interesting and one I obsessed over greatly before going gen 2. A decent late gen 1 997 turbo will cost you £50k (?) to buy and then to make a proper road weapon min £10-15k inc. VAT would be required to install **reputable and proven** 540 hp remap / sports exhaust / cats, uprated intercoolers (eg GT2 RS units), air filter, uprated clutch, Bilstein or similar suspension, upgraded brakes (for non pccb cars), etc. This budget excludes any repairs and overhaul work required during the mod work due to age and / or wear e.g O2 sensors, hoses, seals, turbo work, etc. This would create a very, very fast road car that would handle wondrously .... how would compare to the say gen 2 turbo S cross country I guess comes down to drivers, etc. At v-max style event the two cars should achieve similar speeds over same distance?
The moot point here for me was that you are spending pretty much the same £ in creating modded gen 1 as buying nice gen 2. Further if you want to soundly trounce a gen 2 you would be upgrading turbos on gen 1 plus other work to achieve a **real** 600 hp, so adding another say min £5k to modding budget.
I decided to go gen 2 due to wanting turn key OPC warrantied ownership experience, and not be worried should any mechanical failure occur, etc.
Creating a modded turbo monster is great and very exciting, the rush when on the gas is unparalleled and makes the factory offering seem almost pedestrian. From experience of owning modded 993 turbo in the past, the monster turbo route is worthwhile sojourning if you are looking to keep for long time, accept fact it will cost more to run ref repairs / periodic overhaul, understand you will have limited or no warranty cover, and will be difficult (price dependent) to sell further down the line.
Where has the OP gone ?
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