High Mileage 100k+ 996TT
Discussion
Does anyone here own a higher mileage 996TT?
I currently have a C2 but am thinking about upgrading. My car is only used at weekends as a fun car and i have seen a few higher mileage tip tronic turbos with 100k + on them. The ones i have looked at have impressive history but as this is a whole new territory for me i would like some more advice on any specific and costly things to look out for in particular...
Rumours of 996TT prices going up are making me want to get one fairly soon as i always promised myself a GT3 (when they were 30k) and that is now a door that has been slammed well and firmly shut!
I currently have a C2 but am thinking about upgrading. My car is only used at weekends as a fun car and i have seen a few higher mileage tip tronic turbos with 100k + on them. The ones i have looked at have impressive history but as this is a whole new territory for me i would like some more advice on any specific and costly things to look out for in particular...
Rumours of 996TT prices going up are making me want to get one fairly soon as i always promised myself a GT3 (when they were 30k) and that is now a door that has been slammed well and firmly shut!
Rockster's Turbo is deeply into the 100k mark, if he see's this he'll add his advise.
Mine's just tipped over onto the 70k mark a few weeks ago, but mines strong as an ox. The usual advise applies really, history history history. And make sure you can see a folder or two of invoices for work.
There's loads of advise on here and 911uk, but the common things are replacement of rads, condensors, brakes, clutch accumulator, turbo bolting and heat shields. Turbo actuator rods seizing / snapping. Turbo dirverter valves can stick and need replacement. Plus the Turbo casing can sometimes crack.....I had this happen a few years ago.
Other age related things which are starting to need replacement are hydraulic, turbo oil and cooling pipework and tubing. Steering rack overhaul and header tank replacement.
I've had all the above done over the past 5 years. I really don't want to add it up
Mine's just tipped over onto the 70k mark a few weeks ago, but mines strong as an ox. The usual advise applies really, history history history. And make sure you can see a folder or two of invoices for work.
There's loads of advise on here and 911uk, but the common things are replacement of rads, condensors, brakes, clutch accumulator, turbo bolting and heat shields. Turbo actuator rods seizing / snapping. Turbo dirverter valves can stick and need replacement. Plus the Turbo casing can sometimes crack.....I had this happen a few years ago.
Other age related things which are starting to need replacement are hydraulic, turbo oil and cooling pipework and tubing. Steering rack overhaul and header tank replacement.
I've had all the above done over the past 5 years. I really don't want to add it up
As HomerJ mentioned I have over 125K miles on my 03 Turbo. (And I know by his posts an owner (T2 who posts mainly at: http://rennlist.com/forums/996-turbo-forum-61/) who has put over 420K on his 996 Turbo.)
"more advice on any specific and costly things to look out for in particular..."
Well, first you want to find one with a good service history, no stories, no track time, and in its factory stock condition. This reduces the number of viable candidate cars down but it eliminates a number of cars that you do not want to own.
You want to take the time to throughly check the car out, which involves a test ride then a test drive. I've covered this many times and I won't take the time to type in the details but you can find them if you do a search.
You want to then have the car subjected to a PPI by someone intimately knowledgeable about these cars.
If the car checks out and you like the price then buy the car.
What to look out for? Well, everything. As I have said more than once the 996 Turbo is just a used car so it needs to be subjected to a thorough used car checked out.
So, check everything.
If I say mention the radiators being a known sore point and you focus on that end of the car you miss a leaking spoiler at the other end which to replace will make new radiators seem cheap by comparison.
Or if I mention my Turbo's front diff axle flange seals leaked you might overlook signs of a water pump leaking.
Since you are not looking at a car with a manual transmission, the clutch accumulator and clutch slave cylinder aren't a concern.
But that the Tip behaves is a big concern. Ideally I would like a Tip Turbo to have had one Tip fluid/filter service prior to my buying it and some time ago, not just last week. (A very recent fluid service suggests the current owner was concerned about the Tip's behavior and sought to address it with a probably past due Tip fluid service. That the car is for sale suggests the fluid service didn't help...)
I could go on and on like this.
Instead I'll repeat: Check everything.
The check list Porsche techs use to CPO certify a car is a good starting point. 'course you won't be able to do all the checks cause you won't be able to get the car on a lift. But when I shopped used Turbos and found the one I ended up buying I'd visit the car after hours and laying on the ground with a bright flashlight I was able to check some areas for any signs of trouble.
The PPI check out looks at things you can't from the outside. The car's DME over rev counters get read. While it is hard to overrev a Tip it is not impossible. I've been told if the Tip is set to hold a gear if the car is driven down a steep enough incline gravity can have the engine over revving. You also get the engine run times and you can use these to double check for any signs of odometer tampering.
The PPI gets the car in the air and from underneath every hose and every hose fitting or connection, every hydraulic line and line connection, every gasket, seal, o-ring can be checked for leak sign. These include the front axle diff flange seals, cardan shaft, tranny seals and even the seals around the selector shafts. The RMS and water pump seals. The turbo oil lines. Head gaskets. Camshaft covers. Spark plug tubes. Radiator hoses/and fittings at the radiators, water pump and where these enter the engine. The engine hose fittings at the engine have been known to work loose and leak. (They are epoxied in place and this can weaken and leak over time. Tracked vehicles seem to be more likely to develop this problem than strictly street driven Turbos, but it is an engine out job regardless which is expensive so you want to be sure these are not leaking.)
Check the spoiler for proper operation but also check for any signs of fluid leaks.
Some of these leak checking you can do on your own, but all of this leak checking also comes after the test ride/drive as the usage gives the various potential leaks to become active and show themselves.
Do not forget that a general rule of thumb is to have on hand 10% of the car's purchase price to have just in case something goes wrong shortly after you buy the car. I have to stress no matter how thorough a job you do checking the car out, no matter how thorough the PPI was, things can go from OK to bad in nearly no time. So you can get the car and a few weeks later spot a water pump leak. Or even put a nail in a rear tire. If the undamaged tire and the new replacement tire have 30% difference in tread depth the undamaged tire has to be replaced.
Keep in mind these cars are expensive cars -- mine stickered for $119K new -- and cost like the dickens to service and repair. Every service costs more than it does for a NA car. And some services need to be done more often. Plugs for one thing. Sure if you are up to it you can DIY and save some money. Or if you have a good indy they can sometimes save some money. But these cars are still expensive compared to their NA siblings.
And if you want to keep the car in good repair you need to budget for regular servicing. For instance I have the oil/filter done every 5K miles. (So too does T2 and his engine's longevity speaks volumes on the benefit of reasonably frequent oil/filter services.) You also need to be prepared to take care of issues as they arise. This means no limping around town with a leaking coolant system. Proper cooling system function is critical to keeping the engine healthy. Price the cost of a Turbo engine replacement if you need some incentive to keep up on things.
Really a lot to digest but you are looking at getting a very high performance, very complicated, and very complex car. While the car's performance is legendary we forget sometimes what it takes to keep that performance at its peak is legendary amounts of money.
"more advice on any specific and costly things to look out for in particular..."
Well, first you want to find one with a good service history, no stories, no track time, and in its factory stock condition. This reduces the number of viable candidate cars down but it eliminates a number of cars that you do not want to own.
You want to take the time to throughly check the car out, which involves a test ride then a test drive. I've covered this many times and I won't take the time to type in the details but you can find them if you do a search.
You want to then have the car subjected to a PPI by someone intimately knowledgeable about these cars.
If the car checks out and you like the price then buy the car.
What to look out for? Well, everything. As I have said more than once the 996 Turbo is just a used car so it needs to be subjected to a thorough used car checked out.
So, check everything.
If I say mention the radiators being a known sore point and you focus on that end of the car you miss a leaking spoiler at the other end which to replace will make new radiators seem cheap by comparison.
Or if I mention my Turbo's front diff axle flange seals leaked you might overlook signs of a water pump leaking.
Since you are not looking at a car with a manual transmission, the clutch accumulator and clutch slave cylinder aren't a concern.
But that the Tip behaves is a big concern. Ideally I would like a Tip Turbo to have had one Tip fluid/filter service prior to my buying it and some time ago, not just last week. (A very recent fluid service suggests the current owner was concerned about the Tip's behavior and sought to address it with a probably past due Tip fluid service. That the car is for sale suggests the fluid service didn't help...)
I could go on and on like this.
Instead I'll repeat: Check everything.
The check list Porsche techs use to CPO certify a car is a good starting point. 'course you won't be able to do all the checks cause you won't be able to get the car on a lift. But when I shopped used Turbos and found the one I ended up buying I'd visit the car after hours and laying on the ground with a bright flashlight I was able to check some areas for any signs of trouble.
The PPI check out looks at things you can't from the outside. The car's DME over rev counters get read. While it is hard to overrev a Tip it is not impossible. I've been told if the Tip is set to hold a gear if the car is driven down a steep enough incline gravity can have the engine over revving. You also get the engine run times and you can use these to double check for any signs of odometer tampering.
The PPI gets the car in the air and from underneath every hose and every hose fitting or connection, every hydraulic line and line connection, every gasket, seal, o-ring can be checked for leak sign. These include the front axle diff flange seals, cardan shaft, tranny seals and even the seals around the selector shafts. The RMS and water pump seals. The turbo oil lines. Head gaskets. Camshaft covers. Spark plug tubes. Radiator hoses/and fittings at the radiators, water pump and where these enter the engine. The engine hose fittings at the engine have been known to work loose and leak. (They are epoxied in place and this can weaken and leak over time. Tracked vehicles seem to be more likely to develop this problem than strictly street driven Turbos, but it is an engine out job regardless which is expensive so you want to be sure these are not leaking.)
Check the spoiler for proper operation but also check for any signs of fluid leaks.
Some of these leak checking you can do on your own, but all of this leak checking also comes after the test ride/drive as the usage gives the various potential leaks to become active and show themselves.
Do not forget that a general rule of thumb is to have on hand 10% of the car's purchase price to have just in case something goes wrong shortly after you buy the car. I have to stress no matter how thorough a job you do checking the car out, no matter how thorough the PPI was, things can go from OK to bad in nearly no time. So you can get the car and a few weeks later spot a water pump leak. Or even put a nail in a rear tire. If the undamaged tire and the new replacement tire have 30% difference in tread depth the undamaged tire has to be replaced.
Keep in mind these cars are expensive cars -- mine stickered for $119K new -- and cost like the dickens to service and repair. Every service costs more than it does for a NA car. And some services need to be done more often. Plugs for one thing. Sure if you are up to it you can DIY and save some money. Or if you have a good indy they can sometimes save some money. But these cars are still expensive compared to their NA siblings.
And if you want to keep the car in good repair you need to budget for regular servicing. For instance I have the oil/filter done every 5K miles. (So too does T2 and his engine's longevity speaks volumes on the benefit of reasonably frequent oil/filter services.) You also need to be prepared to take care of issues as they arise. This means no limping around town with a leaking coolant system. Proper cooling system function is critical to keeping the engine healthy. Price the cost of a Turbo engine replacement if you need some incentive to keep up on things.
Really a lot to digest but you are looking at getting a very high performance, very complicated, and very complex car. While the car's performance is legendary we forget sometimes what it takes to keep that performance at its peak is legendary amounts of money.
if you want fun I would keep the C2. it will appreciate more too!
a tip tronic turbo is not going to be as near fun a the c2.
slush box, 4wd, heavier by about 250 kgs over your c2 and less raw.
they are great GT cars and for munching miles across Europe. mental fast machines but not what I would call a weekend fun car.
a tip tronic turbo is not going to be as near fun a the c2.
slush box, 4wd, heavier by about 250 kgs over your c2 and less raw.
they are great GT cars and for munching miles across Europe. mental fast machines but not what I would call a weekend fun car.
if you want fun I would keep the C2. is it a 996?
a tip tronic turbo is not going to be as near fun a the c2.
slush box, 4wd, heavier by about 250 kgs over your c2 and less raw.
they are great GT cars and for munching miles across Europe. mental fast machines but not what I would call a weekend fun car.
a tip tronic turbo is not going to be as near fun a the c2.
slush box, 4wd, heavier by about 250 kgs over your c2 and less raw.
they are great GT cars and for munching miles across Europe. mental fast machines but not what I would call a weekend fun car.
DasChin said:
if you want fun I would keep the C2. is it a 996?
a tip tronic turbo is not going to be as near fun a the c2.
slush box, 4wd, heavier by about 250 kgs over your c2 and less raw.
they are great GT cars and for munching miles across Europe. mental fast machines but not what I would call a weekend fun car.
Totally disagree!! a tip tronic turbo is not going to be as near fun a the c2.
slush box, 4wd, heavier by about 250 kgs over your c2 and less raw.
they are great GT cars and for munching miles across Europe. mental fast machines but not what I would call a weekend fun car.
Having owned a c2 previously and now own a 996 turbo tip the turbo wins hands down its a no contest, the speed/acceleration alone is like night and day when comparing the two how can it be more fun to accelerate slower?!
C2 more raw yes definitely agree there but in every other department for me turbo wins hands down.
Handles better, faster, more road presence, better looking, more options as standard.
I will give the c2 some credit though mine had PSE and I miss that growl unfortunately the only downside of a turbo being a turbo is it doesn't sound as good!
Thanks Gents, very helpful replies and much appreciated.
http://www.norwichsportsandclassics.co.uk/cars/por...
That is the car i was considering viewing.
The 996 i have at the moment is a very nice example, i dont think a specialist would have any problems taking it off my hands straight for resale.
Looking around and hearing from current owners the potential bills a Turbo can throw at me are the main concern. I do have a slush fund put aside BUT would i be better off keeping the C2, gettings a C4S or even look at a Cayman S etc.
I would like to do the odd track day etc, has anyone tried the tiptronic on track?
http://www.norwichsportsandclassics.co.uk/cars/por...
That is the car i was considering viewing.
The 996 i have at the moment is a very nice example, i dont think a specialist would have any problems taking it off my hands straight for resale.
Looking around and hearing from current owners the potential bills a Turbo can throw at me are the main concern. I do have a slush fund put aside BUT would i be better off keeping the C2, gettings a C4S or even look at a Cayman S etc.
I would like to do the odd track day etc, has anyone tried the tiptronic on track?
M3333 said:
Thanks Gents, very helpful replies and much appreciated.
http://www.norwichsportsandclassics.co.uk/cars/por...
That is the car i was considering viewing.
The 996 i have at the moment is a very nice example, i dont think a specialist would have any problems taking it off my hands straight for resale.
Looking around and hearing from current owners the potential bills a Turbo can throw at me are the main concern. I do have a slush fund put aside BUT would i be better off keeping the C2, gettings a C4S or even look at a Cayman S etc.
I would like to do the odd track day etc, has anyone tried the tiptronic on track?
http://www.norwichsportsandclassics.co.uk/cars/por...
That is the car i was considering viewing.
The 996 i have at the moment is a very nice example, i dont think a specialist would have any problems taking it off my hands straight for resale.
Looking around and hearing from current owners the potential bills a Turbo can throw at me are the main concern. I do have a slush fund put aside BUT would i be better off keeping the C2, gettings a C4S or even look at a Cayman S etc.
I would like to do the odd track day etc, has anyone tried the tiptronic on track?
You only live once commit to a turbo you will not regret it!
The tip is fine it could be better, there is a company up north that modifies your existing wheel and fits paddle shift.
Re c4s correct me if I am wrong but it isn't that much quicker so would that satisfy you long term as much as a turbo would?
DasChin said:
if you want fun I would keep the C2. it will appreciate more too!
a tip tronic turbo is not going to be as near fun a the c2.
slush box, 4wd, heavier by about 250 kgs over your c2 and less raw.
they are great GT cars and for munching miles across Europe. mental fast machines but not what I would call a weekend fun car.
I'm curious why you think a C2 will appreciate more? Based on what evidence?a tip tronic turbo is not going to be as near fun a the c2.
slush box, 4wd, heavier by about 250 kgs over your c2 and less raw.
they are great GT cars and for munching miles across Europe. mental fast machines but not what I would call a weekend fun car.
Your not too far off on the weight though I'll give you that :- Tippy Turbo 1585kg, Tippy C2 1365kg. Taken from Marc Bongers Porsche and Ruf Sportscars book. Think he runs the Porsche Archive.
Disagree about the Turbo not being as fun car vs C2. I had my C2 for 4 great years. Absolutely loved it, but the Turbo for me, is just better in everyway. Bigger smile, more of an occasion, massive performance. I can't really see any negatives vs my old C2.
Depends on what you want from a weekend car. I use my weekend car for fun and advanced driving and could just drive 120 miles for lunch and turn around and drive 120 miles home.
I currently own a high mileage 02 Turbo manual daily driver and previously had an X50 Tip daily and 3.4 and 3.6 C4 in weekends as well as various other cars.
Between my dailies, I prefer the manual as it is much more interactive and pleasing than the Tip at low speed. I live in central London so speed is not high but I really enjoy the way the manual drives. For example, it sounds great when your double de clutch when changing up or into first, you can manage hints of under or oversteer at low speed and the way it haul itself from 1,500 rpm on dual carriageways. My Tip could never manage all that. I guess X50 does not help with the Turbo lag either at low speed.
For weekends, I take the C4 out to Essex, Cambridgeshire, Suffolk and Norfolk because the car is more interactive than my Turbos. For example, I can hold fully throttle for 8-10 seconds on country roads in the C4 where I could only hold maybe 3-4 seconds in the Turbo. The limit is lower so you can induce under and oversteer. The n/a engines, especially the 3.4, pull harder towards the red-line as you rev it out and I like the non-linear delivery. The 3.6 less so but the Turbo I find is very boring with what I felt is a flat torque curve. Also, the clutch is too light in the Turbo and the biting point has less feel to it so the 3.4 and 3.6 are more satisfying to heel and toe.
Actually, if I am really looking for a fun, interactive and advanced drive, I take my sorted MR2 Mark 2 because this makes me think about driving even more than the C4 with the PSM and all other safety nets.
Re. Running costs, the Turbo is c.50% more to maintain and repair, purely because it is more complex and more things on it to go wrong (3 rads rather than 2, actuators, clutch hydraulics, etcetera). Servicing is similar but major is more because the Turbo needs spark plugs replacement twice as often. Fuel wise, 18 mpg on country roads for the Turbo vs. 22 for the n/a. Central London I get 15 mpg to work and back in the Turbo and motorway cruise at 80-85 without boosting up c.28-30 mpg.
Use a good specialist, Ken at Nine Excellence looks after my cars.
Bottom line is if you want an interactive drive in the weekend, keep the C2. Turbo is more of a GT. If you just want to go fast, quietly, comfortably, efficiently with minimal driving effort and arrive at you destination feeling refresh, the Turbo is the way to go.
I currently own a high mileage 02 Turbo manual daily driver and previously had an X50 Tip daily and 3.4 and 3.6 C4 in weekends as well as various other cars.
Between my dailies, I prefer the manual as it is much more interactive and pleasing than the Tip at low speed. I live in central London so speed is not high but I really enjoy the way the manual drives. For example, it sounds great when your double de clutch when changing up or into first, you can manage hints of under or oversteer at low speed and the way it haul itself from 1,500 rpm on dual carriageways. My Tip could never manage all that. I guess X50 does not help with the Turbo lag either at low speed.
For weekends, I take the C4 out to Essex, Cambridgeshire, Suffolk and Norfolk because the car is more interactive than my Turbos. For example, I can hold fully throttle for 8-10 seconds on country roads in the C4 where I could only hold maybe 3-4 seconds in the Turbo. The limit is lower so you can induce under and oversteer. The n/a engines, especially the 3.4, pull harder towards the red-line as you rev it out and I like the non-linear delivery. The 3.6 less so but the Turbo I find is very boring with what I felt is a flat torque curve. Also, the clutch is too light in the Turbo and the biting point has less feel to it so the 3.4 and 3.6 are more satisfying to heel and toe.
Actually, if I am really looking for a fun, interactive and advanced drive, I take my sorted MR2 Mark 2 because this makes me think about driving even more than the C4 with the PSM and all other safety nets.
Re. Running costs, the Turbo is c.50% more to maintain and repair, purely because it is more complex and more things on it to go wrong (3 rads rather than 2, actuators, clutch hydraulics, etcetera). Servicing is similar but major is more because the Turbo needs spark plugs replacement twice as often. Fuel wise, 18 mpg on country roads for the Turbo vs. 22 for the n/a. Central London I get 15 mpg to work and back in the Turbo and motorway cruise at 80-85 without boosting up c.28-30 mpg.
Use a good specialist, Ken at Nine Excellence looks after my cars.
Bottom line is if you want an interactive drive in the weekend, keep the C2. Turbo is more of a GT. If you just want to go fast, quietly, comfortably, efficiently with minimal driving effort and arrive at you destination feeling refresh, the Turbo is the way to go.
Edited by hygt2 on Wednesday 22 October 13:26
Acceleration and deceleration is not everything in a sports car. Sports means to me a working out, mentally as well as physically.
The fact that you have to work hard to get an overtake done, plan ahead, thinking which gear to use, block changing gears up and down is part of fun. Being smooth to add momentum to the car as well as working out how best to take the momentum back off again is part of the joy. If you have to work up a sweat, so be it.
I do think at 200-250 bhp per tonne, without a turbo, is a sweet spot for driving.
The fact that you have to work hard to get an overtake done, plan ahead, thinking which gear to use, block changing gears up and down is part of fun. Being smooth to add momentum to the car as well as working out how best to take the momentum back off again is part of the joy. If you have to work up a sweat, so be it.
I do think at 200-250 bhp per tonne, without a turbo, is a sweet spot for driving.
agreed with HYGT2..its not all about outright speed and acceleration. to me that is dull....and you can't really do that on our roads anymore.
a 996 C2 manual is a shade over 1300 KGs. Turbo is closer to 1540...and that is a manual
here you go:
http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/...
don't forget the transmission, 4wd, turbos and other bits on the turbo all add up. its a heavy car and even more with the auto slush box.
the only reason to have a tip box is to sit in traffic.
2wd, manual all day for fun and being a true sports car.
a 996 C2 manual is a shade over 1300 KGs. Turbo is closer to 1540...and that is a manual
here you go:
http://www.carfolio.com/specifications/models/car/...
don't forget the transmission, 4wd, turbos and other bits on the turbo all add up. its a heavy car and even more with the auto slush box.
the only reason to have a tip box is to sit in traffic.
2wd, manual all day for fun and being a true sports car.
M3333 said:
Thanks Gents, very helpful replies and much appreciated.
http://www.norwichsportsandclassics.co.uk/cars/por...
That is the car i was considering viewing.
The 996 i have at the moment is a very nice example, i dont think a specialist would have any problems taking it off my hands straight for resale.
Looking around and hearing from current owners the potential bills a Turbo can throw at me are the main concern. I do have a slush fund put aside BUT would i be better off keeping the C2, gettings a C4S or even look at a Cayman S etc.
I would like to do the odd track day etc, has anyone tried the tiptronic on track?
You currently own a 996. While it is not a Turbo, you state it is a nice example.http://www.norwichsportsandclassics.co.uk/cars/por...
That is the car i was considering viewing.
The 996 i have at the moment is a very nice example, i dont think a specialist would have any problems taking it off my hands straight for resale.
Looking around and hearing from current owners the potential bills a Turbo can throw at me are the main concern. I do have a slush fund put aside BUT would i be better off keeping the C2, gettings a C4S or even look at a Cayman S etc.
I would like to do the odd track day etc, has anyone tried the tiptronic on track?
Your current car should continue to give you years and thousands of miles of good service and though it won't do this without some upkeep (and dare I say repair) costs, you can be sure it will cost you less than the Turbo to keep on the road and in good condition and repair.
You would be getting rid of a good car, one that you know intimately, its history and its condition. You would then be buying a car that while you would be able to determine its condition to a point you could make a reasonably informed decision to buy the car or walk away from the car, you would still be buying a car you knew less about.
You would also experience depreciation as you sold your current example and would set your self up for some depreciation when it came time to dispose of the Turbo.
Tracking a Turbo means you better bring a wheelbarrow of money. Tires, other consumables, and vital fluid services, if you do the right thing and not skimp on these, will cost you.
You should consider having the engine coolant fittings re-worked to avoid one of these failing while on the track. A failure can wet the rear tires with coolant this can have the car off in the weeds, or worse, before you know it. You can also cause a following car to have a serious off track event. Even if you and other drivers come out unscathed the sudden loss of coolant and pressure is not good for a hard running Turbo engine.
Also, you better have good insurance in case you have an 'off'. Bend a Turbo and it can take big money to put it right and you have to be prepared for the possibility it may not be fixable. (Hit a mule deer with my 03 Turbo back in July of 2009. Cost over $25K to fix the car. I had insurance but I can tell you it was not all roses and angels singing to get the car fixed right. While the insurance company charges Turbo premiums when it comes time to pay out it wants to pay out Ford Focus sums.)
And I do not see you gaining much if anything by moving from your C2 to a C4S. While the C4S would not have the costs of a Turbo, the C4S really brings little extra to the table compared to your C2. I do not consider AWD a compelling feature. While I drove my Turbo in some snow with its summer tires it was just the fact I was following a big rig that was clearing a path that made the difference, not the AWD. Were I to use my car in snow I would fit proper winter tires. (I note many Porsche owners drive their cars year 'round and in snow and ice and even those with just RWD manage just fine, with the *proper* snow tires fitted.) The AWD adds weight, complexity. Sure maybe at 150mph or higher (where the front wheels are getting 40% of the torque) there might be some benefit but I don't spend much time at those speeds and owners of RWD cars touch 150mph and don't seem to suffer any from the lack of AWD.
If you can keep your present car and find a nice 2nd car to use for tracking that is not a bad way to go. Get yourself a base Boxster or early Cayman (or an S model if you want) and go have fun. Even if God forbid your car eats a tire barrier or hugs a tree at the track you still have your 996 to drive.
'course, you can buy a Turbo, move on your current 996, and track the heck out of the Turbo. It is entirely your call.
Oh Tips: I know there are a number of Turbos equipped with Tip transmissions tracked. I have not heard any real negative comments by Turbo Tip owners regarding their car either on or off the track. While some owners of manual equipped cars come down on Tips quit harshly I think it just some owners can't stand the fact there is more than one transmission that works in these cars.
Rockster said:
And I do not see you gaining much if anything by moving from your C2 to a C4S. While the C4S would not have the costs of a Turbo, the C4S really brings little extra to the table compared to your C2. I do not consider AWD a compelling feature. While I drove my Turbo in some snow with its summer tires it was just the fact I was following a big rig that was clearing a path that made the difference, not the AWD. Were I to use my car in snow I would fit proper winter tires. (I note many Porsche owners drive their cars year 'round and in snow and ice and even those with just RWD manage just fine, with the *proper* snow tires fitted.) The AWD adds weight, complexity. Sure maybe at 150mph or higher (where the front wheels are getting 40% of the torque) there might be some benefit but I don't spend much time at those speeds and owners of RWD cars touch 150mph and don't seem to suffer any from the lack of AWD.
Agree with Rockster re. 911 does not need AWD but does need winters in cold, wet and snowy/icy condition. With the RWD and rear engine, you have lots of traction to get the car off the line even in snow. So you are left with braking and entering a corner which the AWD won't help you, except for the little extra weight at the front. In my experience, even my mid-engine, RWD car with summers is good enough in snow and ice in the un-gritted suburban roads in the South East. Honestly, I struggle to get the rears on a C2 to spin up on dry tarmac but C4 will give you a little extra "peace of mind" / traction. Wet is different, obviously.
P.S.:
If you struggle to get a RWD going on ice in say a open car park or junction, you can use the hand brake to act as a primitive LSD on an open diff car to stop one wheel spinning up to get you out of trouble. Same principle with FWD, use left foot braking to transfer the power on an open diff to the wheel with more grip.
Thanks again Guys, really appreciate the helpful informed responses, exactly what was needed.
Weighing up all the options i think the Turbo idea was driven mainly by an urge to tick that box, buy it, experience it, have some fun, maybe fall in love and keep it or move it on. My current 996 is a special order car, it has colour coded centre console, seat belts, it has been looked after and during my ownership i have spent a small fortune on it keeping it in super condition. It is exactly where i want it to be now but i just have an itch for a change. My business partner just picked up an e92 M3 which started all this! Reading your replies i am not not convinced a Turbo is what i want or will meet my expectations and i will end up with a car back to square one that needs plenty of money spending on it to get it to a stage i would be happy with.
So i think the C2 can stay with me for a while longer. I may do a couple of light track days in it, nothing heavy, just to really push it a little bit further than i can on the road without worrying about police, cyclists, etc etc.
I might save up a little more cash and treat myself to a nice 997 next year, but i want something special, GT3 aero kit, guards red etc.
The idea behind the C4S was purely having something that looks a bit more special. As nice as my C2 is it looks a tad plain and boring compared to the Turbo bodied stuff!
So thanks again, for now the C2 stays with me for a while longer.
Weighing up all the options i think the Turbo idea was driven mainly by an urge to tick that box, buy it, experience it, have some fun, maybe fall in love and keep it or move it on. My current 996 is a special order car, it has colour coded centre console, seat belts, it has been looked after and during my ownership i have spent a small fortune on it keeping it in super condition. It is exactly where i want it to be now but i just have an itch for a change. My business partner just picked up an e92 M3 which started all this! Reading your replies i am not not convinced a Turbo is what i want or will meet my expectations and i will end up with a car back to square one that needs plenty of money spending on it to get it to a stage i would be happy with.
So i think the C2 can stay with me for a while longer. I may do a couple of light track days in it, nothing heavy, just to really push it a little bit further than i can on the road without worrying about police, cyclists, etc etc.
I might save up a little more cash and treat myself to a nice 997 next year, but i want something special, GT3 aero kit, guards red etc.
The idea behind the C4S was purely having something that looks a bit more special. As nice as my C2 is it looks a tad plain and boring compared to the Turbo bodied stuff!
So thanks again, for now the C2 stays with me for a while longer.
M3333 said:
So i think the C2 can stay with me for a while longer. I may do a couple of light track days in it, nothing heavy, just to really push it a little bit further than i can on the road without worrying about police, cyclists, etc etc.
I might save up a little more cash and treat myself to a nice 997 next year, but i want something special, GT3 aero kit, guards red etc.
The idea behind the C4S was purely having something that looks a bit more special. As nice as my C2 is it looks a tad plain and boring compared to the Turbo bodied stuff!
If you're happy with the performance, of the C2, then you could always source a GT3 bumper, wing and side skirts for it to give it a better look. My mate's got a 996.1 with that (minus sideskirts currently) and it transforms the look of the car, makes it look very tidy.I might save up a little more cash and treat myself to a nice 997 next year, but i want something special, GT3 aero kit, guards red etc.
The idea behind the C4S was purely having something that looks a bit more special. As nice as my C2 is it looks a tad plain and boring compared to the Turbo bodied stuff!
Another option for prettier is a 6C4S as mentioned before, BUT you can remove the parts supplying drive to the front wheels. Should save about 60kg or so bringing it much closer to C2 weight and giving you the C2 fun-ness on road and track but with better brakes and a sexier look
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