Anybody ordered a 991 GTS...
Discussion
The problem which the 4WD 991 helps fix is the lack of steering feel on the 2WD version.
I would try both and not worry too much about the PDCC I think the car is good with or without it. If you are doing motorway miles/euro trip its probably better with it and 4WD. No motorway miles, mostly london centric miles and some track work then 2WD and no PDCC.
Carl_Docklands said:
The problem which the 4WD 991 helps fix is the lack of steering feel on the 2WD version.
I'm confused by this. Surely directing torque through the front wheels only serves to exacerbate the problem of steering feel by corrupting it? Though the feeling of small amounts of torque steer might be misinterpreted as friction changes, it's not. Interesting points. I'd heard that the facelift GTS might stay NA too - I hope so. Re the steering feel, I did prefer the weightier feel of the 4, but both cars were equipped with PSP, which (for me) gave the 2 no feel whatsoever. Hoping the PEC cars will be different. As far as usage goes it'll be everything. I live in London but drive to and around Sussex regularly and it will also see European work (to give an example, when I bought the Boxster I told my insurance I'd do 5,000 miles a year because the bike was my main mode of transport. Let's just say I was calling them with a correction pretty soon.)
I've heard different things about the steering (and 7-MT) in the GTS. A number of reviews say they both feel tighter and better, but the official word from Porsche is that they're the same as in the S. I wonder if... I just wonder...
Like, if I was in charge at Porsche (and I'm definitely the first person on any forum to have begun a mental sentence like this), I wonder if there might be a case for tweaking those things and just... saying we hadn't. They were the two biggest perceived problems with the 991, and if fettled would make a better car, which would make GTS buyers happy and steal a march on developing the facelift model. Saying we'd done those things, though, could be seen as tantamount to admitting they were problems in the first place, which would not be good PR.
That said, practice and placebo are pretty strong effects, so the reviewers reported 'improvements' could easily be wishful thinking or just the fact that they had driven more 991s and the 997 was further back in their memory.
But I still wonder...
I've heard different things about the steering (and 7-MT) in the GTS. A number of reviews say they both feel tighter and better, but the official word from Porsche is that they're the same as in the S. I wonder if... I just wonder...
Like, if I was in charge at Porsche (and I'm definitely the first person on any forum to have begun a mental sentence like this), I wonder if there might be a case for tweaking those things and just... saying we hadn't. They were the two biggest perceived problems with the 991, and if fettled would make a better car, which would make GTS buyers happy and steal a march on developing the facelift model. Saying we'd done those things, though, could be seen as tantamount to admitting they were problems in the first place, which would not be good PR.
That said, practice and placebo are pretty strong effects, so the reviewers reported 'improvements' could easily be wishful thinking or just the fact that they had driven more 991s and the 997 was further back in their memory.
But I still wonder...
Tony 1234 said:
MagicRat said:
and I don't want to be driving it for years thinking 'what would it be if it had x?'
Which was my thought exactly when choosing my spec, but having lived with it since March 2012 and driven cars without it I wouldn't bother again 
A number of other owners with PDCC, including Guillaume B off here, had the same issue.
Nimerino said:
Carl_Docklands said:
The problem which the 4WD 991 helps fix is the lack of steering feel on the 2WD version.
I'm confused by this. Surely directing torque through the front wheels only serves to exacerbate the problem of steering feel by corrupting it? Though the feeling of small amounts of torque steer might be misinterpreted as friction changes, it's not. Although I think both cars are completely different drives in terms of handling they are both wedded by this common trait.
In my experience the 991 2S filters out this noise to give the driver more confidence and the 991 4S re-introduces some of it, some say its due to the additional mechanical running gear at the front of the car, some say its due to a slight software change because of it, but there it is. Whether it bothers you or not depends on your sensitivity to it.
991 - Its like slipping on a condom.... (because its safer and you don't need all the feel anyway)
.....or maybe not.
Ignoring cost as a factor, the 991 GTS4 coupe would have pretty much all the answers for a young family and I can see its appeal. The risk is that Porsche pull out a cracker with the Generation 2 model with a slightly revised steering system, giving buyers remorse for those that are not 100% sold on the current car. For the cost, I think you have to be 100% with this one and this is why I think people are cautious about this late model car and its not generating much excitement, even though you can't buy a GT3, whereas the last 997 GTS thread was 100 pages long and their was not a GT3 fiasco, pretty much anyone who wanted one got one.
I would be pretty confident that the manual box has been improved on the gts. The steering may also be better. After all it's only "software" .
I'd also guess the standard cars have them as well, its just the journalists probably aren't testing them now.
There would be precious little people who have driven a 2015 spec manual carrera.
I have my name down for a gt4, though a 991 would be more practical for every day driving (family etc).
I'm hanging back to see what spec/price will be & what transpires with the next gen 991.
Apologies for going off topic a bit!
I'd also guess the standard cars have them as well, its just the journalists probably aren't testing them now.
There would be precious little people who have driven a 2015 spec manual carrera.
I have my name down for a gt4, though a 991 would be more practical for every day driving (family etc).
I'm hanging back to see what spec/price will be & what transpires with the next gen 991.
Apologies for going off topic a bit!
Carl_Docklands said:
991 - Its like slipping on a condom.... (because its safer and you don't need all the feel anyway)
.....or maybe not.
This actually made me laugh out loud, but writing LOL feels incommensurate with my age. .....or maybe not.
I will declare an interest in that I own a 97 GTS, which was bought after extensively test-driving it against a 991 C2S; for me the 997 was/is wonderful, the 991 was not. I think there's less debate about the new car because whereas the 997, and by extension its derivatives, were universally considered to be great cars, this hasn't held true for the 991. Let's face it, those who buy a late-model 991 just before the arrival of the updated car are likely to be enthusiasts who have a vested interest in specific aspects of the outgoing car, whether it's the hydraulic steering and the narrower front track (as it was for me) or naturally aspirated engines (as is likely the case with the 991 GTS).
I think the final paragraph of your post is quite telling, in that it is pragmatic about the appeal of a 991 C4GTS, whereas the simple fact that the 997 was great to drive seemed to be enough to justify purchasing one, and the rest was man-logic. However, it remains to be seen if Porsche has actually interpreted the market far better than I, and thus sells boat-loads of the new GTS. It wouldn't surprise me.
Interesting thread. I bought one of the last manual 997 GTS cars in October 2011. A good discount because OPC wanted to shift metal and make way for the 991. It replaced a 997.1 Turbo and (for me at least) the GTS is a far better car. I recently considered replacing with a 991 GTS but have to ask: is it really worth spending another £45k for an equivalent spec?
I suppose I need to test drive the new GTS as I've only driven a 991 S, but was not impressed with the steering, the artificial exhaust noise piped into the car and the truly awful electronic handbrake! Actually not that keen on the internal layout where Porsche try to cram more info in the five dials making the side pods are difficult to read.
I doubt whether the 997 GTS will appreciate in value like some earlier models, but prices are edging up - only three manual cars currently on PistonHeads from £59k to £62 and that's an increase of around £8k - £10k in the last 12 months. A new 991 GTS will drop five figures as soon as you drive out of the showroom.
I suppose I need to test drive the new GTS as I've only driven a 991 S, but was not impressed with the steering, the artificial exhaust noise piped into the car and the truly awful electronic handbrake! Actually not that keen on the internal layout where Porsche try to cram more info in the five dials making the side pods are difficult to read.
I doubt whether the 997 GTS will appreciate in value like some earlier models, but prices are edging up - only three manual cars currently on PistonHeads from £59k to £62 and that's an increase of around £8k - £10k in the last 12 months. A new 991 GTS will drop five figures as soon as you drive out of the showroom.
Taste is a funny thing. I actually had a 997 GTS 4 for a little while and didn't get on with it. It was my first 911 and also a cab (I understand the difference between coupe and cab on the 997 to have been greater than on the 991). I found it felt heavier and a bit vague compared with the Boxster. I liked the 991s I've driven much more, but probably for reasons that people who have driven more 911s through history don't like them - refinement, comfort, actually *not* having such a sensation of a very heavy thing hanging out the back. I think I'm probably prime 991 target-market material (consider a drop-top essential in a sports car, can't be bothered to operate a clutch).
That said, the Boxster has just taken me on a lengthy voyage around much of southern England and made it pretty hard to imagine how I could enjoy another car more. I feel less like I'm driving it and more like I just am it if that makes any sense.
Finally, a couple of people have said that PDCC is worthwhile if one does a lot of motorways. Is there a noticeable improvement in straight-line comfort?
And, post-finally, a happy New Year to one and all. Let's be safe, treat other road users with kindness and enjoy our driving in 2015.
That said, the Boxster has just taken me on a lengthy voyage around much of southern England and made it pretty hard to imagine how I could enjoy another car more. I feel less like I'm driving it and more like I just am it if that makes any sense.
Finally, a couple of people have said that PDCC is worthwhile if one does a lot of motorways. Is there a noticeable improvement in straight-line comfort?
And, post-finally, a happy New Year to one and all. Let's be safe, treat other road users with kindness and enjoy our driving in 2015.
The options that Porsche (and the industry as a whole) have added to cars recently haven't been added for the sake of it. PDCC, PSV, PTV, PDK and every other inane acronym out there do broaden the appeal of the car. Though the selection bias on this board would have us all believe otherwise, most people who buy these cars desire every aid to comfort and speed that they can get. For the rest of us, we can pick and choose these options to create a car that gels with our driving style.
I'm 32, so the idea of PDK does not bother me, and to be able to rev the car out to the redline, banging in downshifts into a corner and accelerating the car out is enjoyable to me, perhaps even more so than the more measured driving technique I would have to adopt with a manual. But I want the car to feel rear-engined, I want it to understeer if I don't get corner entry and exit right, I want to learn to exploit the front end and the shifts in weight from front to rear and side-to-side, and I want to know through the tips of my fingers how much grip is available at the front. So I would emphatically say no to all the other options.
The 991 GTS will undoubtedly be a good car, perhaps even a great one. But the shift in emphasis of today's 911 to a car that is both more comfortable when pootling and faster when pressing on (preferably on a track) has broadened the appeal relative to the manner in which sports cars are used today by a lot of owners. The losses are in feel and balance when at 5-8/10ths, which is a compromise most are wiling to make. Again, it is possible that this is a case of Porsche reading the market, i.e. their potential customers, better than most of us on here ever could. The incessant complaints about BMW M-cars being dumbed down has been met time and again with increased sales. And again, there is likely a formidable selection bias on this board.
People will buy the 991 GTS, they will probably love it; it is also likely that history won't look quite as kindly on the car compared to its predecessor, and it is certain Porsche won't give a toss if it sells more.
I'm 32, so the idea of PDK does not bother me, and to be able to rev the car out to the redline, banging in downshifts into a corner and accelerating the car out is enjoyable to me, perhaps even more so than the more measured driving technique I would have to adopt with a manual. But I want the car to feel rear-engined, I want it to understeer if I don't get corner entry and exit right, I want to learn to exploit the front end and the shifts in weight from front to rear and side-to-side, and I want to know through the tips of my fingers how much grip is available at the front. So I would emphatically say no to all the other options.
The 991 GTS will undoubtedly be a good car, perhaps even a great one. But the shift in emphasis of today's 911 to a car that is both more comfortable when pootling and faster when pressing on (preferably on a track) has broadened the appeal relative to the manner in which sports cars are used today by a lot of owners. The losses are in feel and balance when at 5-8/10ths, which is a compromise most are wiling to make. Again, it is possible that this is a case of Porsche reading the market, i.e. their potential customers, better than most of us on here ever could. The incessant complaints about BMW M-cars being dumbed down has been met time and again with increased sales. And again, there is likely a formidable selection bias on this board.
People will buy the 991 GTS, they will probably love it; it is also likely that history won't look quite as kindly on the car compared to its predecessor, and it is certain Porsche won't give a toss if it sells more.
Nimerino said:
The options that Porsche (and the industry as a whole) have added to cars recently haven't been added for the sake of it. PDCC, PSV, PTV, PDK and every other inane acronym out there do broaden the appeal of the car. Though the selection bias on this board would have us all believe otherwise, most people who buy these cars desire every aid to comfort and speed that they can get. For the rest of us, we can pick and choose these options to create a car that gels with our driving style.
I'm 32, so the idea of PDK does not bother me, and to be able to rev the car out to the redline, banging in downshifts into a corner and accelerating the car out is enjoyable to me, perhaps even more so than the more measured driving technique I would have to adopt with a manual. But I want the car to feel rear-engined, I want it to understeer if I don't get corner entry and exit right, I want to learn to exploit the front end and the shifts in weight from front to rear and side-to-side, and I want to know through the tips of my fingers how much grip is available at the front. So I would emphatically say no to all the other options.
The 991 GTS will undoubtedly be a good car, perhaps even a great one. But the shift in emphasis of today's 911 to a car that is both more comfortable when pootling and faster when pressing on (preferably on a track) has broadened the appeal relative to the manner in which sports cars are used today by a lot of owners. The losses are in feel and balance when at 5-8/10ths, which is a compromise most are wiling to make. Again, it is possible that this is a case of Porsche reading the market, i.e. their potential customers, better than most of us on here ever could. The incessant complaints about BMW M-cars being dumbed down has been met time and again with increased sales. And again, there is likely a formidable selection bias on this board.
People will buy the 991 GTS, they will probably love it; it is also likely that history won't look quite as kindly on the car compared to its predecessor, and it is certain Porsche won't give a toss if it sells more.
Good postI'm 32, so the idea of PDK does not bother me, and to be able to rev the car out to the redline, banging in downshifts into a corner and accelerating the car out is enjoyable to me, perhaps even more so than the more measured driving technique I would have to adopt with a manual. But I want the car to feel rear-engined, I want it to understeer if I don't get corner entry and exit right, I want to learn to exploit the front end and the shifts in weight from front to rear and side-to-side, and I want to know through the tips of my fingers how much grip is available at the front. So I would emphatically say no to all the other options.
The 991 GTS will undoubtedly be a good car, perhaps even a great one. But the shift in emphasis of today's 911 to a car that is both more comfortable when pootling and faster when pressing on (preferably on a track) has broadened the appeal relative to the manner in which sports cars are used today by a lot of owners. The losses are in feel and balance when at 5-8/10ths, which is a compromise most are wiling to make. Again, it is possible that this is a case of Porsche reading the market, i.e. their potential customers, better than most of us on here ever could. The incessant complaints about BMW M-cars being dumbed down has been met time and again with increased sales. And again, there is likely a formidable selection bias on this board.
People will buy the 991 GTS, they will probably love it; it is also likely that history won't look quite as kindly on the car compared to its predecessor, and it is certain Porsche won't give a toss if it sells more.
pete a said:
Having looked at a 991 GTS sat next to the 30k cheaper Cayman GTS yesterday i don't think i could see where the extra 30k of car is, i'd get the Cayman GTS instead.
Exactly what I did in the end. And my Cayman GTS spec was £40k less than the 991!!!! With the only real benefit for me being the two rear seats. But I can buy a Golf R with the difference!pete a said:
Having looked at a 991 GTS sat next to the 30k cheaper Cayman GTS yesterday i don't think i could see where the extra 30k of car is, i'd get the Cayman GTS instead.
Exactly what I did in the end. And my Cayman GTS spec was £40k less than the 991!!!! With the only real benefit for me being the two rear seats. But I can buy a Golf R with the difference!pete a said:
Having looked at a 991 GTS sat next to the 30k cheaper Cayman GTS yesterday i don't think i could see where the extra 30k of car is, i'd get the Cayman GTS instead.
We're skiing off piste here, but I totally agree with this comment. The 911 has a kind of iconic status, but the Cayman drives better; a little slower in a straight line, but we all grow up eventually and stop measuring performance in tenths of a second. It's a perfectly balanced car - Steve Sutcliffe's Autocar review sums it up perfectly: "If I was going have one sports car for the rest of time, I honestly think this might be it. It's that good, it's amazing."And at current prices you can almost do a straight swap with the 997 GTS.
pete a said:
Having looked at a 991 GTS sat next to the 30k cheaper Cayman GTS yesterday i don't think i could see where the extra 30k of car is, i'd get the Cayman GTS instead.
And this is the problem, isn't it? Eradicate the traits that are unique to the 911, dilute the experience of the car moving about underneath you, reduce the differentiation between the 991 and the 981, create an artificial stratification in the range by neutering the Cayman, and sooner or later people will wake up to the fact that a mid-engined car has inherently better balance. If there's little or no 911-ness to justify buying a 911, why not get one of the best sports cars of its generation?Also, it's a truism that the 981 has, in general, better reviews in the press with fewer caveats than the majority of the 991 range. At £20k less, the competition isn't as unforgiving.
I suppose it comes down to taste again. The 981 is certainly better value than the 991, but then diminishing marginal returns feature in the consideration of pretty much all consumer goods. And the extra 35k does buy an extra 47bhp/tonne (Cayman GTS vs 991 GTS coupe, figures from Porsche website), the back seats and a more luxurious feel.
I drove both on track and thought the Cayman tremendously agile but just a bit anodyne and not really that different from my (admittedly quite heavily fettled) 987 Boxster. The 991 just felt like more of an event. Maybe it's just to do with the human nervous system's fondness for detecting difference; if I was coming from a 911, the mid-engined feeling of almost turning on the spot might have been a breath of fresh air.
I drove both on track and thought the Cayman tremendously agile but just a bit anodyne and not really that different from my (admittedly quite heavily fettled) 987 Boxster. The 991 just felt like more of an event. Maybe it's just to do with the human nervous system's fondness for detecting difference; if I was coming from a 911, the mid-engined feeling of almost turning on the spot might have been a breath of fresh air.
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