Anybody ordered a 991 GTS...
Discussion
MagicRat said:
I suppose it comes down to taste again. The 981 is certainly better value than the 991, but then diminishing marginal returns feature in the consideration of pretty much all consumer goods. And the extra 35k does buy an extra 47bhp/tonne (Cayman GTS vs 991 GTS coupe, figures from Porsche website), the back seats and a more luxurious feel.
I drove both on track and thought the Cayman tremendously agile but just a bit anodyne and not really that different from my (admittedly quite heavily fettled) 987 Boxster. The 991 just felt like more of an event. Maybe it's just to do with the human nervous system's fondness for detecting difference; if I was coming from a 911, the mid-engined feeling of almost turning on the spot might have been a breath of fresh air.
AgreedI drove both on track and thought the Cayman tremendously agile but just a bit anodyne and not really that different from my (admittedly quite heavily fettled) 987 Boxster. The 991 just felt like more of an event. Maybe it's just to do with the human nervous system's fondness for detecting difference; if I was coming from a 911, the mid-engined feeling of almost turning on the spot might have been a breath of fresh air.
DMC2 said:
I'm curious how you think the 991 is more luxurious than the Cayman GTS? The interiors and kit are identical.
TBH - I can understand the angle - its not about the kit or the quality of materials - I think its an ambience thing.991 coupe is more GT-like now - longer wheelbase gives a more relaxed idea and high speed stability. More room in the cabin - making it more airy.
981 is more sports car - slightly smaller inside vs the 991 - engine is right behind your head.
TDT said:
981 is more sports car - slightly smaller inside vs the 991 - engine is right behind your head.
Of course, no matter the market repositioning, some might argue the 911 should be as much a sports car (or sports coupé, albeit with the benefit of 2+2 seating) as the Cayman. In comparison to its contemporary peers, the 991 feels no smaller to me, whereas the 997 did, and most of those competitors have far more pronounced GT aspirations.Have test driven and ordered a 911 GTS this week (March delivery) and having had a Cayman in the past didn't even consider looking at one again . Cayman is great sports car very tactile and responsive but I found it tiresome and noisy especially on longer trips. 911 is just a bigger car and more comfortable , I've had a 997 carrera 4 for last 9 months and that has convinced me that 911 is way to go for me. Mine should look like this
Bit annoying that to get a leather dash costs you£4,468
Bit annoying that to get a leather dash costs you£4,468
I've also always WANTED to like the Cayman more than the 911.. But every time I drove both I came away thinking the 911 was the car I always wanted. Maybe in the last generation a bit less so but when I drove the C GTS compared to my 991 S the lesser power was kind of obvious.. which in everyday world would be largely irrelevant I agree, but for those fleeting moments where you can really open it up on a mountain pass you really want the car which will make your stomach turn that little more..
MagicRat said:
That car looks awesome! Care to share what options you specced it with?
Not my car in photo but spec orderedN0 GQ 636 250 435 027 088 342 454 581 P05 X69 619 680 T93
Individual equipment
Agate Grey Metallic
Black leather i.c.w Carmine Red alcantara package GTS ParkAssist front and rear
Porsche Doppelkupplung (PDK)
20-inch 911 Turbo S wheels, painted in Black Instrument dials in Carmine Red
GTS interior package
Heated seats
Electric folding mirrors
Cruise control
Luggage net passenger footwell
Sports seats Plus (4-way, electric)
Carbon door sill guards Exclusive
Preparation for mobile phone
BOSE® Surround Sound System
Porsche Vehicle Tracking System (VTS)
Any comments welcome as order locked on 15th Jan
Sold my 997 tonight over phone after4 hours
on autotrader (sorry must try pistonheads next time ) for £1500 more than dealer offered (it is a perfect pampered car so buyer is lucky) so will just have to put up with sharing wife's golf R for few weeks which isn't that bad but we have decided to get fake exhaust sound on golf turned off Asap and I have a friend who can remap golf to 370 bhp so may be fun!
You've got a nice order there for a GTS. I was thinking of ordering the Cab version. It was a tough call but I went for the Turbo in the end. I think the standard spec of the GTS is impressive & the sports exhaust will sound cool.
Like you I needed a 4 seater & whilst some other Supercars might look slightly more 21st century, the Porsche 911 is a great all rounder. Mine is Feb production. Looking forward to it! The Merc & the McLaren will both lose a lot more money after 12 months ownership & with the latter it will prob need 15k+ of extras. . I can't believe how much the SLS dropped in price lol
Enjoy your new toy ??
Like you I needed a 4 seater & whilst some other Supercars might look slightly more 21st century, the Porsche 911 is a great all rounder. Mine is Feb production. Looking forward to it! The Merc & the McLaren will both lose a lot more money after 12 months ownership & with the latter it will prob need 15k+ of extras. . I can't believe how much the SLS dropped in price lol
Enjoy your new toy ??
Edited by SnoopD on Sunday 11th January 17:24
SnoopD said:
You've got a nice order there for a GTS. I was thinking of ordering the Cab version. It was a tough call but I went for the Turbo in the end. I think the standard spec of the GTS is impressive & the sports exhaust will sound cool.
Like you I needed a 4 seater & whilst some other Supercars might look slightly more 21st century, the Porsche 911 is a great all rounder. Mine is Feb production. Looking forward to it! The Merc & the McLaren will both lose a lot more money after 12 months ownership & with the latter it will prob need 15k+ of extras. . I can't believe how much the SLS dropped in price lol
Enjoy your new toy ??
I am sure Turbo will be epic but just a bit too much money for me to justify to wife and having test driven GTS know power is fine for me and just liked feel of car and sounds are great though I didn't take it to the limit ( only 17 miles on clock and even though sales guy told me it was bench run in And I could do what I wanted with it I couldn't help thinking of next owner!)Like you I needed a 4 seater & whilst some other Supercars might look slightly more 21st century, the Porsche 911 is a great all rounder. Mine is Feb production. Looking forward to it! The Merc & the McLaren will both lose a lot more money after 12 months ownership & with the latter it will prob need 15k+ of extras. . I can't believe how much the SLS dropped in price lol
Enjoy your new toy ??
Edited by SnoopD on Sunday 11th January 17:24
Just deleted electric folding mirrors as found out that means you don't get sport design version.
Also would advise others to choose sport design steering wheel as nearly got that wrong as well - multi function steering wheel with all buttons sounds great but doesn't have right flappy paddles and looks wrong!
Edited by GT3hopeful on Sunday 11th January 23:52
Right then. Report time. I’ve finally driven both the 2 and 4wd 991 GTSs at the PEC at Silverstone and am going to have a go at reporting back. The short version is I went for the 2wd car. The long version is below, if you want it, so get a cup of tea and read on.
I got there late because of a tailback on the M1, but the centre was quiet and they were v accommodating, so I ended up driving both cars, back to back, for 45 minutes both before and after lunch. The conditions were about as slippery as they could be – pouring rain on a track that hadn’t been used for a month.
It wasn’t quite an apples-to-apples comparison. The 2 was PDK and PDCC, the 4 manual and no PDCC.
I said that I wanted to corner at road speeds before lunch (I’m buying this car probably 99% for the road) with a couple of fast, straight-line runs, and then press on a bit afterwards. We went in the 2 first, and my immediate thought was that the steering has definitely been improved for the GTS. It felt perfectly taut and weighted, better than my 987 Boxster and way better than the last 991 S I drove (though that had PSP). The car just felt absolutely right: pliant at low speed, ferocious on the way to redline and with ridiculous amounts of traction in between. It also had clear glass tail lights, which looked the business. If anyone is speccing a car I would advise at least a look at this option.
Getting in the manual 4 reminded me that PDK is definitely what I want. It may be because the last stick-shift I drove for any length of time was an Iveco truck, but the lever felt very high to require as much force as it did to move, and I just prefer having my hands on the wheel all the time. And overall the car just felt slightly…less, especially (and possibly strangely) when flooring it in a straight line. There just felt to be a bit less urgency, which I’m sure can’t be due to the 50kg weight increase but may be a psychological effect of being pushed and pulled rather than just pushed (the drivetrain graphic showed about 50% power going to the front wheels under full beans).
So I had a lovely lunch with Old Mother Rat (OMR maintains a keen interest in cars in spite of not being allowed to drive them anymore) thinking my mind was made up. And then the 2wd car bit me.
I was asking for it. Getting on the gas too early and too hard out of an off-camber right-hand bend caused the back to step out with alarming speed and led to a fishtail/tankslapper most of the way down the back straight. I drove cautiously for the rest of the session and was ready to go faster and feel more secure in the 4.
And I did. Feel more secure that is – it’s glued to the road and one can drive it like a fool and have it be fine. But I didn’t go faster. The car understeered if I went into bends at the same speed as in the 2, which meant that my overall speed was about the same. Instructor Alastair said this was partly because of the extra weight over the front of the car, but also because when the back begins to lose traction the front takes over and pulls the car forward but ‘some people like it because it’s more predictable’. I didn’t love the feeling of the front tyres going sideways over the tarmac, but I did have the memory of my ‘moment’ fairly high in my mind when I went back inside to watch OMR be taken for a few passenger laps.
Ever-helpful Alastair then said I had time for one last quick go, and which car did I want? I took the 2 and decided immediately that it would be the one for me to 'take home', for all the reasons outlined above. Sure, it will punish bad driving more than the 4, but it will also reward good, and that to me seems like the point.
The only question that remained was about PDCC. I think I’ve read every thread on the subject and still hadn’t made up my mind. The 2wd car with PDCC was as fast (in my extremely average hands) as the 4wd without it, in very wet weather indeed, which leads me to think that in the dry there would be quite a difference. And I preferred the feel of the 2, to which PDCC surely contributed. That said, Chris Harris and Evo, both of whose opinions I respect, said the car is better without.
I was lucky enough this morning to discuss the matter with Colin Hoad of CAT Driver Training where I’ve done a couple of courses (highly recommended, btw). Colin is pretty much the UK’s leading expert on vehicle dynamics and said, in rather more eloquent and technical terms, something like: ‘I can understand why Chris Harris might not want it, but you’re not him.’ He was of the opinion that for a driving mortal, on the road, it would enhance enjoyment of the car. Once I’ve run it in I’m going to take it up to Colin for a day of coaching at Millbrook to see if I can get a little bit nearer to Harrisian levels of mastery.
So the order’s gone in. The spec is as follows
991 GTS Cab, black metallic
PDK
PDCC
LED headlights
Clear tail lights
Ducktail
Burmester
Heated and vented seats (because oh my god they literally have seats that blow air up your back. And it can be warm air. If you want.)
Multifunction steering wheel (I fiddle unrelentingly with the stereo volume and have never got over the affront of having to take a hand off the wheel to do it. Planning to convert the wheel to paddles in due course).
White instrument dials and clock
Red seat belts
A few extra leathery bits
They’re saying March build for April delivery. Comments and questions welcome!
I got there late because of a tailback on the M1, but the centre was quiet and they were v accommodating, so I ended up driving both cars, back to back, for 45 minutes both before and after lunch. The conditions were about as slippery as they could be – pouring rain on a track that hadn’t been used for a month.
It wasn’t quite an apples-to-apples comparison. The 2 was PDK and PDCC, the 4 manual and no PDCC.
I said that I wanted to corner at road speeds before lunch (I’m buying this car probably 99% for the road) with a couple of fast, straight-line runs, and then press on a bit afterwards. We went in the 2 first, and my immediate thought was that the steering has definitely been improved for the GTS. It felt perfectly taut and weighted, better than my 987 Boxster and way better than the last 991 S I drove (though that had PSP). The car just felt absolutely right: pliant at low speed, ferocious on the way to redline and with ridiculous amounts of traction in between. It also had clear glass tail lights, which looked the business. If anyone is speccing a car I would advise at least a look at this option.
Getting in the manual 4 reminded me that PDK is definitely what I want. It may be because the last stick-shift I drove for any length of time was an Iveco truck, but the lever felt very high to require as much force as it did to move, and I just prefer having my hands on the wheel all the time. And overall the car just felt slightly…less, especially (and possibly strangely) when flooring it in a straight line. There just felt to be a bit less urgency, which I’m sure can’t be due to the 50kg weight increase but may be a psychological effect of being pushed and pulled rather than just pushed (the drivetrain graphic showed about 50% power going to the front wheels under full beans).
So I had a lovely lunch with Old Mother Rat (OMR maintains a keen interest in cars in spite of not being allowed to drive them anymore) thinking my mind was made up. And then the 2wd car bit me.
I was asking for it. Getting on the gas too early and too hard out of an off-camber right-hand bend caused the back to step out with alarming speed and led to a fishtail/tankslapper most of the way down the back straight. I drove cautiously for the rest of the session and was ready to go faster and feel more secure in the 4.
And I did. Feel more secure that is – it’s glued to the road and one can drive it like a fool and have it be fine. But I didn’t go faster. The car understeered if I went into bends at the same speed as in the 2, which meant that my overall speed was about the same. Instructor Alastair said this was partly because of the extra weight over the front of the car, but also because when the back begins to lose traction the front takes over and pulls the car forward but ‘some people like it because it’s more predictable’. I didn’t love the feeling of the front tyres going sideways over the tarmac, but I did have the memory of my ‘moment’ fairly high in my mind when I went back inside to watch OMR be taken for a few passenger laps.
Ever-helpful Alastair then said I had time for one last quick go, and which car did I want? I took the 2 and decided immediately that it would be the one for me to 'take home', for all the reasons outlined above. Sure, it will punish bad driving more than the 4, but it will also reward good, and that to me seems like the point.
The only question that remained was about PDCC. I think I’ve read every thread on the subject and still hadn’t made up my mind. The 2wd car with PDCC was as fast (in my extremely average hands) as the 4wd without it, in very wet weather indeed, which leads me to think that in the dry there would be quite a difference. And I preferred the feel of the 2, to which PDCC surely contributed. That said, Chris Harris and Evo, both of whose opinions I respect, said the car is better without.
I was lucky enough this morning to discuss the matter with Colin Hoad of CAT Driver Training where I’ve done a couple of courses (highly recommended, btw). Colin is pretty much the UK’s leading expert on vehicle dynamics and said, in rather more eloquent and technical terms, something like: ‘I can understand why Chris Harris might not want it, but you’re not him.’ He was of the opinion that for a driving mortal, on the road, it would enhance enjoyment of the car. Once I’ve run it in I’m going to take it up to Colin for a day of coaching at Millbrook to see if I can get a little bit nearer to Harrisian levels of mastery.
So the order’s gone in. The spec is as follows
991 GTS Cab, black metallic
PDK
PDCC
LED headlights
Clear tail lights
Ducktail
Burmester
Heated and vented seats (because oh my god they literally have seats that blow air up your back. And it can be warm air. If you want.)
Multifunction steering wheel (I fiddle unrelentingly with the stereo volume and have never got over the affront of having to take a hand off the wheel to do it. Planning to convert the wheel to paddles in due course).
White instrument dials and clock
Red seat belts
A few extra leathery bits
They’re saying March build for April delivery. Comments and questions welcome!
MagicRat said:
Heated and vented seats (because oh my god they literally have seats that blow air up your back. And it can be warm air. If you want.)
You said this and have yet to have the PistonHeads mob call you a sissy! Though it strikes me that the sense of childlike wonder you express is the only reason ever to get any option, as most, if not all of them, are indulgences. I want heated, vented seats now.Lovely car, I'm certain you'll enjoy it.
In my opinion, however, perhaps you should reconsider PDCC and the MF wheel. Neither of us is Chris Harris, but as you grow accustomed to the behaviour of the car and get closer to its limits, the artificial intervention of the system will become more apparent. So in terms of shorter-term gratification, PDCC may be wonderful, but I feel it might restrict your enjoyment later, even limit the extent to which you can bond with the car.
As for the wheel, the buttons are frankly infuriating, and remove so much of the tactility of the PDK. If you only ever drive in auto mode, then you might be nonplussed, but if you ever use the manual mode you may very well want to rip the steering wheel of the rack and eject it from the car. It might be easier to curb the compulsive volume-fiddling tendencies instead.
I don't think the full leather seats are a good option for GTS and you may need vented seats for the rare sunny days as leather will get sweaty. Much better to go with alcantara GTS pack and heated seats which are useful in UK winter even if it will cost you £1500 more than heated vented leather seats imo.
Sport design steering wheel and mirrors are right choice if you want car to be in character.
Sport design steering wheel and mirrors are right choice if you want car to be in character.
Thanks for your thoughts, and glad the child-like glee attracted no name calling 
I did think about the GTS pack, but it looks weird with the MF wheel, and that's a non-negotiable for me, esp in the 991 where the gearstick's kind of in the way of the volume knob. I don't actually mind the buttons (aware that this may be PH sacrilege). Had them on the Boxster for almost 3 years and pressed away quite happily or just use the stick. I will get Techart to convert the wheel though - Alcantara-ise it and put paddles on - eventually. I was also a bit unsure about all the deviated stitching, red rev counter etc. I've had white dials in the Boxster and think I would find them more soothing to look at than red (disclosure: I may spend slightly more time doing things like meditating and going for very slow walks in the park than the average Porsche fan).
Alcantara vs ventilated leather seats was a tough call, but on my trusty fantasy scale (which one have I been imagining having more) the vents take it.
PDCC's the hardest call, but overall points in favour:
It makes the car faster according to Herr Rohrl and others
I kept up with, as it were, myself in a 4wd car without PDCC in a 2wd car with it, in a monsoon
That 2wd car with it felt really good to me (can't of course say that a 2wd without it may have felt better)
I'm generally down with embracing new technology in a new car (not that I've ever bought a new car before, but I'm kind of inclined to trust Porsche with what they say should ideally be there.)
It might make the ride a little more comfortable for Mrs Rat.
The argument against seems to be about feel at grip limit: that the transfer to and over is less smooth. I reckon this has to be learnable. It might be harder to learn but it must be possible. And it does seem like a slightly arbitrary dichotomy not to want this particular electrical intervention but not mind about PASM, dynamic engine mounts etc, all of which respond in a similar way.
Obviously driving rwd cars with and without PDCC back to back would be ideal, but ultimately I made the call because the car I really liked on the day had it, and the idea of that whole package being mine was very appealing. Only sent the signed order form off today so obviously much more time to worry and fiddle with things!
I did think about the GTS pack, but it looks weird with the MF wheel, and that's a non-negotiable for me, esp in the 991 where the gearstick's kind of in the way of the volume knob. I don't actually mind the buttons (aware that this may be PH sacrilege). Had them on the Boxster for almost 3 years and pressed away quite happily or just use the stick. I will get Techart to convert the wheel though - Alcantara-ise it and put paddles on - eventually. I was also a bit unsure about all the deviated stitching, red rev counter etc. I've had white dials in the Boxster and think I would find them more soothing to look at than red (disclosure: I may spend slightly more time doing things like meditating and going for very slow walks in the park than the average Porsche fan).
Alcantara vs ventilated leather seats was a tough call, but on my trusty fantasy scale (which one have I been imagining having more) the vents take it.
PDCC's the hardest call, but overall points in favour:
It makes the car faster according to Herr Rohrl and others
I kept up with, as it were, myself in a 4wd car without PDCC in a 2wd car with it, in a monsoon
That 2wd car with it felt really good to me (can't of course say that a 2wd without it may have felt better)
I'm generally down with embracing new technology in a new car (not that I've ever bought a new car before, but I'm kind of inclined to trust Porsche with what they say should ideally be there.)
It might make the ride a little more comfortable for Mrs Rat.
The argument against seems to be about feel at grip limit: that the transfer to and over is less smooth. I reckon this has to be learnable. It might be harder to learn but it must be possible. And it does seem like a slightly arbitrary dichotomy not to want this particular electrical intervention but not mind about PASM, dynamic engine mounts etc, all of which respond in a similar way.
Obviously driving rwd cars with and without PDCC back to back would be ideal, but ultimately I made the call because the car I really liked on the day had it, and the idea of that whole package being mine was very appealing. Only sent the signed order form off today so obviously much more time to worry and fiddle with things!
MagicRat said:
It makes the car faster according to Herr Rohrl and others
I kept up with, as it were, myself in a 4wd car without PDCC in a 2wd car with it, in a monsoon
That 2wd car with it felt really good to me (can't of course say that a 2wd without it may have felt better)
I'm generally down with embracing new technology in a new car (not that I've ever bought a new car before, but I'm kind of inclined to trust Porsche with what they say should ideally be there.)
It might make the ride a little more comfortable for Mrs Rat.
The argument against seems to be about feel at grip limit: that the transfer to and over is less smooth. I reckon this has to be learnable. It might be harder to learn but it must be possible. And it does seem like a slightly arbitrary dichotomy not to want this particular electrical intervention but not mind about PASM, dynamic engine mounts etc, all of which respond in a similar way.
I had PDCC on two 991s, I wouldn't have it again. Why?I kept up with, as it were, myself in a 4wd car without PDCC in a 2wd car with it, in a monsoon
That 2wd car with it felt really good to me (can't of course say that a 2wd without it may have felt better)
I'm generally down with embracing new technology in a new car (not that I've ever bought a new car before, but I'm kind of inclined to trust Porsche with what they say should ideally be there.)
It might make the ride a little more comfortable for Mrs Rat.
The argument against seems to be about feel at grip limit: that the transfer to and over is less smooth. I reckon this has to be learnable. It might be harder to learn but it must be possible. And it does seem like a slightly arbitrary dichotomy not to want this particular electrical intervention but not mind about PASM, dynamic engine mounts etc, all of which respond in a similar way.
1. It makes the car very fussy about tyre pressures.
2. It has (or had if they've now fixed it) a gremlin that gave the sensation of over steer with no warning in long, fast bends. Not funny. It was reported quite a bit by people who used the car on track.
3. It did some weird stuff from time to time, making adjustments for no apparent reason which could make you feel a bit motion sick.
4. I drove a lot of 991s with and without it and eventually decided that the cars without it just felt nicer and more natural.
Oh and I ordered it (twice) because I'd specced a money no object car and wanted all the tech.
Eleven said:
I had PDCC on two 991s, I wouldn't have it again. Why?
1. It makes the car very fussy about tyre pressures.
2. It has (or had if they've now fixed it) a gremlin that gave the sensation of over steer with no warning in long, fast bends. Not funny. It was reported quite a bit by people who used the car on track.
3. It did some weird stuff from time to time, making adjustments for no apparent reason which could make you feel a bit motion sick.
4. I drove a lot of 991s with and without it and eventually decided that the cars without it just felt nicer and more natural.
Oh and I ordered it (twice) because I'd specced a money no object car and wanted all the tech.
That's...really interesting and quite persuasive actually. Thanks for sharing. Can I ask what kind of driving you did in these cars, as in whether the non-PDCC felt better on road, track or both? 1. It makes the car very fussy about tyre pressures.
2. It has (or had if they've now fixed it) a gremlin that gave the sensation of over steer with no warning in long, fast bends. Not funny. It was reported quite a bit by people who used the car on track.
3. It did some weird stuff from time to time, making adjustments for no apparent reason which could make you feel a bit motion sick.
4. I drove a lot of 991s with and without it and eventually decided that the cars without it just felt nicer and more natural.
Oh and I ordered it (twice) because I'd specced a money no object car and wanted all the tech.
I definitely got a snap-oversteer feeling at PEC. I did provoke the car, but it really went out from under me in a way that's never happened even on a track. I'm no Harris but I'm a reasonably proficient motorcyclist and I know a near-miss when I have one. Basically, I was trying to get the car to do a little slide and it did a lot more, which I think is what EVO were talking about in their last month's review of the GTS against the new AMG.
We may be getting slightly off the strict GTS topic, I'd really appreciate any more information you (or anyone else who's driven a bunch of cars with and without PDCC) could give me about your experiences. It's starting to feel like a pretty major decision.
Cheers.
Lots of talk about PDCC on here over years. Found this old thread with a quick search http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=112...
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