The 996 GT2 "Widowmaker" tag. Time to explode the myth.
Discussion
jfp said:
A friend of mine in Germany likes to use his GT2 in all conditions, he even takes in the odd hill climb - and wins.... Meet Uli:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otK9TlipU9s&li...
Glorious use of the weapon, oh and before you asks yes that is Walter in his car at the Ring.
Did you see the flex in the sidewall on the rear tyres, looks as if they are trying to tear themselves of the 12" rim!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otK9TlipU9s&li...
Glorious use of the weapon, oh and before you asks yes that is Walter in his car at the Ring.
Quality piece of car control.
braddo said:
Given the caveats, I'm not convinced the myth is exploded. 
Then there are the very sobering real-life accounts of things going wrong in these cars.
Let's say I have a pilots license and I've flown a Cessna Skyhawk for three years, my mate (himself an accomplished pilot) buys/leases himself a Learjet 85.Then there are the very sobering real-life accounts of things going wrong in these cars.
"Hey Slippy, you can fly yeh ?"
I say "Sure can".
"You should take my 85 up, see what you think."
I do, I crash it, we both die. Does that make the Learjet a "Widowmaker" ?
I fly a Robinson R44, my mate buys a Bell Jetranger, he says I should fly it because it makes my Robinson R44 look like stunned slug.
We go up, I crash it, I die, he ends up with two broken legs. Does that make the Bell Jetranger a "Widowmaker" ?
You can't expect to jump into what was the fastest car Porsche produced (until the CGT ?) and expect to take liberties with it. It's a stiffly sprung, 460hp rear wheel drive car with no driver aids whatsoever, course they'll spit you off the road if you take liberties with them !
The only "ifs" are : if you're endowed with a modicum of common sense, if you're respectful of what you're driving, if you're prepared to concentrate and if you're prepared to drive within your own capabilities. I've done 25k miles behind the wheel of a couple of 996 GT2's in ALL weathers. Others on here have done similar mileages and running more horsepower. They've all lived to tell the tale.
When the GT2 I was a passenger in crashed, I wasn't in the least bit surprised. We took off as the sliproad fell away (yep no kidding). I remember thinking "if this guy gathers this up, he's a driving god, if he doesn't this'll be the mother of all shunts". Of course he wasn't a driving god, if he had been, he'd have realised that wheels/tyres don't steer when their not in contact with the Tarmac, but more importantly, had he been a driving god, he wouldn't have tried to do what he was attempting in the first place ........
When we did land, the dope had put such a huge amount of opposite lock on whilst in mid air, the front wheels were pointing in the wrong direction.
When the front tyres hit the Tarmac, they bit and we turned 90 degrees left at something close to 80mph, unfortunately/fortunately, (depending on your view) the Armco was no more than 15 feet away. We hit it at unabated speed, I watched mesmerised as the front of the car went under the single layer Armco and said section of Armco made its way inexorably up the bonnet like a large, blunt guillotine.
It's true, time does slow down in these circumstances, I thus had time to consider meeting my maker, it wasn't long, but in the time I had available, I came to the conclusion the event itself would most likely be very quick and thus painless.
Then as the weight of the uprooted Armco (3 posts pulled clean out of the ground) and the increasing angle of the bonnet/depth of the front of the car overcame the forward motion, the car stopped and was then instantaneously catapaulted backwards by the energy stored in the Armco.
We did a full 360 degree spin before hitting the Armco on the same side again, this time with less force, but still sufficient to "eject" my glasses from my face.
That incident totally changed my perception of who I was prepared to sit alongside in a car. Before it I'd been happy to sit next to anyone in any car, regardless of their talent.
Now if I have ANY doubts, I just won't entertain sitting in the passenger seat. And even if I do sit next to someone I trust, but I think they're going to try and impress me, I make a point of saying to them "You don't need to drive quickly or try and impress me.........."
ArcticGT3 said:
It`s amazing how quickly people who think they`re talented run out of it when something unexpected happens.
Exactly, and when it goes wrong in a 996 GT2, rest assured you will be going quickly.I did a driving day in my first GT2 with Bernard Aubrey, we used Chobham (Longcross)
We went on the proving ground pad to play with the grip limits. It was quite simply staggering how much grip the tyres had on the smooth, grippy surface.
Even under severe provocation the rear tyres were unwilling to relinquish their grip. But Bernard went on to say the surface at Longcross is flat, grippy and smooth. On the road there'll be cambers, surface imperfections and changes in the types of tarmac, in short the grip levels will never be as consistent on the public roads. Thus the chance to lose adhesion is far higher. Throw in damp or wet roads and the situation changes again drastically.
Slippydiff said:
Let's say I have a pilots license and I've flown a Cessna Skyhawk for three years, my mate (himself an accomplished pilot) buys/leases himself a Learjet 85.
"Hey Slippy, you can fly yeh ?"
I say "Sure can".
"You should take my 85 up, see what you think."
I do, I crash it, we both die. Does that make the Learjet a "Widowmaker" ?
I fly a Robinson R44, my mate buys a Bell Jetranger, he says I should fly it because it makes my Robinson R44 look like stunned slug.
We go up, I crash it, I die, he ends up with two broken legs. Does that make the Bell Jetranger a "Widowmaker" ?
You can't expect to jump into what was the fastest car Porsche produced (until the CGT ?) and expect to take liberties with it. It's a stiffly sprung, 460hp rear wheel drive car with no driver aids whatsoever, course they'll spit you off the road if you take liberties with them !
The only "ifs" are : if you're endowed with a modicum of common sense, if you're respectful of what you're driving, if you're prepared to concentrate and if you're prepared to drive within your own capabilities. I've done 25k miles behind the wheel of a couple of 996 GT2's in ALL weathers. Others on here have done similar mileages and running more horsepower. They've all lived to tell the tale.
When the GT2 I was a passenger in crashed, I wasn't in the least bit surprised. We took off as the sliproad fell away (yep no kidding). I remember thinking "if this guy gathers this up, he's a driving god, if he doesn't this'll be the mother of all shunts". Of course he wasn't a driving god, if he had been, he'd have realised that wheels/tyres don't steer when their not in contact with the Tarmac, but more importantly, had he been a driving god, he wouldn't have tried to do what he was attempting in the first place ........
When we did land, the dope had put such a huge amount of opposite lock on whilst in mid air, the front wheels were pointing in the wrong direction.
When the front tyres hit the Tarmac, they bit and we turned 90 degrees left at something close to 80mph, unfortunately/fortunately, (depending on your view) the Armco was no more than 15 feet away. We hit it at unabated speed, I watched mesmerised as the front of the car went under the single layer Armco and said section of Armco made its way inexorably up the bonnet like a large, blunt guillotine.
It's true, time does slow down in these circumstances, I thus had time to consider meeting my maker, it wasn't long, but in the time I had available, I came to the conclusion the event itself would most likely be very quick and thus painless.
Then as the weight of the uprooted Armco (3 posts pulled clean out of the ground) and the increasing angle of the bonnet/depth of the front of the car overcame the forward motion, the car stopped and was then instantaneously catapaulted backwards by the energy stored in the Armco.
We did a full 360 degree spin before hitting the Armco on the same side again, this time with less force, but still sufficient to "eject" my glasses from my face.
That incident totally changed my perception of who I was prepared to sit alongside in a car. Before it I'd been happy to sit next to anyone in any car, regardless of their talent.
Now if I have ANY doubts, I just won't entertain sitting in the passenger seat. And even if I do sit next to someone I trust, but I think they're going to try and impress me, I make a point of saying to them "You don't need to drive quickly or try and impress me.........."
Very good point old Chap. Saved me the time of posting similar analogy about a Piper Cup a Pits Special... and a a Chap who'd just passed his PPL "Hey Slippy, you can fly yeh ?"
I say "Sure can".
"You should take my 85 up, see what you think."
I do, I crash it, we both die. Does that make the Learjet a "Widowmaker" ?
I fly a Robinson R44, my mate buys a Bell Jetranger, he says I should fly it because it makes my Robinson R44 look like stunned slug.
We go up, I crash it, I die, he ends up with two broken legs. Does that make the Bell Jetranger a "Widowmaker" ?
You can't expect to jump into what was the fastest car Porsche produced (until the CGT ?) and expect to take liberties with it. It's a stiffly sprung, 460hp rear wheel drive car with no driver aids whatsoever, course they'll spit you off the road if you take liberties with them !
The only "ifs" are : if you're endowed with a modicum of common sense, if you're respectful of what you're driving, if you're prepared to concentrate and if you're prepared to drive within your own capabilities. I've done 25k miles behind the wheel of a couple of 996 GT2's in ALL weathers. Others on here have done similar mileages and running more horsepower. They've all lived to tell the tale.
When the GT2 I was a passenger in crashed, I wasn't in the least bit surprised. We took off as the sliproad fell away (yep no kidding). I remember thinking "if this guy gathers this up, he's a driving god, if he doesn't this'll be the mother of all shunts". Of course he wasn't a driving god, if he had been, he'd have realised that wheels/tyres don't steer when their not in contact with the Tarmac, but more importantly, had he been a driving god, he wouldn't have tried to do what he was attempting in the first place ........
When we did land, the dope had put such a huge amount of opposite lock on whilst in mid air, the front wheels were pointing in the wrong direction.
When the front tyres hit the Tarmac, they bit and we turned 90 degrees left at something close to 80mph, unfortunately/fortunately, (depending on your view) the Armco was no more than 15 feet away. We hit it at unabated speed, I watched mesmerised as the front of the car went under the single layer Armco and said section of Armco made its way inexorably up the bonnet like a large, blunt guillotine.
It's true, time does slow down in these circumstances, I thus had time to consider meeting my maker, it wasn't long, but in the time I had available, I came to the conclusion the event itself would most likely be very quick and thus painless.
Then as the weight of the uprooted Armco (3 posts pulled clean out of the ground) and the increasing angle of the bonnet/depth of the front of the car overcame the forward motion, the car stopped and was then instantaneously catapaulted backwards by the energy stored in the Armco.
We did a full 360 degree spin before hitting the Armco on the same side again, this time with less force, but still sufficient to "eject" my glasses from my face.
That incident totally changed my perception of who I was prepared to sit alongside in a car. Before it I'd been happy to sit next to anyone in any car, regardless of their talent.
Now if I have ANY doubts, I just won't entertain sitting in the passenger seat. And even if I do sit next to someone I trust, but I think they're going to try and impress me, I make a point of saying to them "You don't need to drive quickly or try and impress me.........."
I wouldn't personally call the GT2 (or any car, really) a Widowmaker, but to the extent that people might consider any modern car to be a widowmaker, I understand why the GT2 would be a prime candidate. It doesn't suffer fools, is capable of such incredible speed and is sensitive to setup (incl. tyre/suspension condition etc).
I'm not much of an aviation buff but to my mind the GT2 might be analogous to something like a Spitfire - no safety net of course, capable of amazing things when handled properly by a skilled and experienced pilot. BUT, definitely not something in which a Cessna Skyhawk pilot should be heard to say, "Watch this!"
I'm not much of an aviation buff but to my mind the GT2 might be analogous to something like a Spitfire - no safety net of course, capable of amazing things when handled properly by a skilled and experienced pilot. BUT, definitely not something in which a Cessna Skyhawk pilot should be heard to say, "Watch this!"
Edited by braddo on Friday 28th November 14:51
No personal experience of the GT2 but I know a guy who's owned one from new (or nearly new). He's covered a total of 130k miles as a daily drive, without serious incident.
Admittedly he has experience as a racing driver but, from what I understand from speaking to him, he pedals the car with a decent level of commitment and loves the feedback the car gives. In the right hands, these cars can be pushed...
Admittedly he has experience as a racing driver but, from what I understand from speaking to him, he pedals the car with a decent level of commitment and loves the feedback the car gives. In the right hands, these cars can be pushed...
kleonard said:
Great cars ..just you need to be experienced to drive them that's all ..!
Xpuffin said:
No....you need to have respect.
But that is true of any powerful car with limited/no driver aids.The criticism often levelled at the GT2 was that it was poor in communicating the approach to the limit.
If the GT2 isn't a widowmaker, then the term (as applied to cars) doesn't exist.
Slippydiff said:
Plenty of trashed CGT's on Wrecked Exotics. Neither car suffers fools gladly. But then not many RWD cars with in excess of 450hp and zero driver aids do ........
^ Worked just fine until the world went crazy with litigation, Health and Safety, Nanny States etc ........
i know of a guy who has a stable of cars one being anF40^ Worked just fine until the world went crazy with litigation, Health and Safety, Nanny States etc ........
which when he took it on an mot on a loose surface road lost it and crimped the front and rear
he was most embarrased as hed driven F1 cars and is some noise in the british F1 scene
very experienced driver
I upgraded my 996tt to about ~700+ hp with a built engine and new k24's with 20g compressors (thanks AES), extra pump, gt2rs coolers, exhaust, rods, injectors etc., etc. Boost now reads at 1.3bar peak after air leaks finally cured. Protomotive tuned and 2 years and 12 k trouble free miles later, it's worked out all fine, not missed a beat in that time, although my heart has on few occasions especially in second or third gear !
It seems a great (albeit not cheap at about £25k ish) solution; it is super, super fast and yet if not in the mood, the electronics are there in the background, unlike a GT2. That back up feels good on bad roads. I mostly drive it in anger with the electronics off, as i don't want the throttle cut back unexpectedly. I think my car suspension was well set up, as I am still alive 2 years later and have used every ounce of the power, often. My ex Porsche lead mechanic did a fantastic job delivering the build I wanted despite me being a bit overly fanatical at times (a 911 turbo owners nature I often wonder?), and at a good price too. The front wheel drive has worked hard since the upgrade surprise surprise, and I don't use a boost controller either, as I always want max boost available just in case a big bike turns up etc. And boy I have had my best races with them, some really epic memorable ones. Not been overtaken in anger either, only one of Ken's monsters is going to get past this 996tt beast !
So, OK, its not a beautiful special GT2, but with GT2 eating acceleration still feeling fresh after 2 years, I can live with the GT2's better looks. I have the same slightly wider tyres as the GT2 as well. No need for more power, it is totally bonkers on the road as it is, I can't imagine selling it. And isn't the 996TT looking a bit more classical now ? and it is simple to tune and with the tiny block Metzger engine and a proper gearbox, it really rocks. I was shocked how compact the engine core is, it is clearly race bred. apologies for the long rant !
It seems a great (albeit not cheap at about £25k ish) solution; it is super, super fast and yet if not in the mood, the electronics are there in the background, unlike a GT2. That back up feels good on bad roads. I mostly drive it in anger with the electronics off, as i don't want the throttle cut back unexpectedly. I think my car suspension was well set up, as I am still alive 2 years later and have used every ounce of the power, often. My ex Porsche lead mechanic did a fantastic job delivering the build I wanted despite me being a bit overly fanatical at times (a 911 turbo owners nature I often wonder?), and at a good price too. The front wheel drive has worked hard since the upgrade surprise surprise, and I don't use a boost controller either, as I always want max boost available just in case a big bike turns up etc. And boy I have had my best races with them, some really epic memorable ones. Not been overtaken in anger either, only one of Ken's monsters is going to get past this 996tt beast !
So, OK, its not a beautiful special GT2, but with GT2 eating acceleration still feeling fresh after 2 years, I can live with the GT2's better looks. I have the same slightly wider tyres as the GT2 as well. No need for more power, it is totally bonkers on the road as it is, I can't imagine selling it. And isn't the 996TT looking a bit more classical now ? and it is simple to tune and with the tiny block Metzger engine and a proper gearbox, it really rocks. I was shocked how compact the engine core is, it is clearly race bred. apologies for the long rant !
a few pics of the motor... 
Pauter rods going in....
There is the intermediate shaft driving the oil pump - this is the 996tt engine's achilles' heal, you can see the bolt holes in the back of the large cog wheel, it is cheaply bolted to the shaft, and sometimes it comes loose. That means a loud rattle at first and then eventually the oil pump won't get driven anymore as you can see - means a full engine rebuild, as per my engine. In my case the new shaft had its bolts loctite'd in for extra protection so it hopefully does not happen again. No oil pump upgrade in my case but a GT3 pump is nicer.
The new intermediate shaft...
engine back together
the wolf in sheep's clothing...
Pauter rods going in....
There is the intermediate shaft driving the oil pump - this is the 996tt engine's achilles' heal, you can see the bolt holes in the back of the large cog wheel, it is cheaply bolted to the shaft, and sometimes it comes loose. That means a loud rattle at first and then eventually the oil pump won't get driven anymore as you can see - means a full engine rebuild, as per my engine. In my case the new shaft had its bolts loctite'd in for extra protection so it hopefully does not happen again. No oil pump upgrade in my case but a GT3 pump is nicer.
The new intermediate shaft...
engine back together
the wolf in sheep's clothing...
Just be careful with any 'Ruf' GT2s. My 996 GT2 went there and had the full Nardo engine upgrade plus carbon panels at 50,000 Euros+vat about 15 years or more back, so I know them well. (The car was sold a long time ago though)
The reason is that there was a UK GT2 floating around with Ruf badges that the owner claimed was tuned by Ruf. It was at Vmax once when I was there with Marcel Ruf (Alois's son) who came with Adam in his CTR Yellowbird. Marcel looked at the car and said that it had never been to Ruf and the parts fitted were definitely not from Ruf.
The reason is that there was a UK GT2 floating around with Ruf badges that the owner claimed was tuned by Ruf. It was at Vmax once when I was there with Marcel Ruf (Alois's son) who came with Adam in his CTR Yellowbird. Marcel looked at the car and said that it had never been to Ruf and the parts fitted were definitely not from Ruf.
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