Cayman R Vs GT3

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Discussion

J-P

Original Poster:

4,350 posts

205 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
Please can we stop hijacking threads about the GT3 by banging on about the Cayman R and vice versa. It's getting very boring to start reading an interesting thread a la GT3 RS one from a few days ago to find that yet again, there's some nonsense spouted about the Cayman R.

For anybody who truly wants to know which is "better", please could we channel that here, so that at least anybody who is interested in the debate can harp on about it as long as they like and the rest of us can read threads that stay on topic!

For the record, the pre-991 GT3 is a far superior car to the Cayman R for anybody who actually likes to drive. (I haven't driven a 991 GT3 yet, so can't comment on what that is like to drive).

The GT3 sounds a lot better, has way more feel, is a lot quicker in pretty much every guise and feels way more special. Chasing down the redline in a GT3 is simply a wonderful experience.

This doesn't mean that the CR is an utter piece of crap either - it's a perfectly good road car, handles well enough and is fun in its own right and makes a better noise than a 997 generation Carrera but it is not as good as a GT3 in any sense.

You've probably read some utter drivel about gear ratios etc and how the R is so much better as a road car because it has better gear ratios than a GT3 - this is desperate clap trap to me.

I own an R and to be honest I really like it, it's a nice car but it is not the best thing since sliced bread and if you wish to remain legal on any b road, you'll not escape 2nd gear and you'll certainly get nowhere near top of third unless you're happy to flirt with going to jail.

In my mind an R needs a higher revving engine, with better noise, more power and in general needs more feel, from the steering and chassis to be able to begin to approach a GT3.

In summary, an R feels like what it is. A half hearted effort from an exceptional car manufacturer, which means that it is in actual fact a very good car but one that has been deliberately restrained and you feel that when you drive it. Whereas every GT3, I have driven feels like it's the absolute best effort from an exceptional car manufacturer and you feel that difference when you drive it too.

HokumPokum

2,049 posts

204 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
bravo......

agree totally.

i have a 7.2 RS and had a CR and a spyder.

BTW, gear ratios of CR and spyder are perfectly fine on track and so is the regular GT3. I mean porsches are made for track use right?

PR36

341 posts

115 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
How about organising a race to settle it once and for all. Just as a wildcard i wager that in my heavily modified 987 cayman s which costs less than half your ego wagons i can blow you all into the weeds. biggrin

mrdemon

21,146 posts

264 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
:-)

"For the record, the pre-991 GT3 is a far superior car to the Cayman R for anybody who actually likes to drive."
er they are the same in fact the R is harder to master and drive on the limit.

"The GT3 sounds a lot better,"
ok I'll give you that, but only just, a lot of people do add extra pipes to the GT3, the R sounds pretty good.

"has way more feel,"
Wrong imo the GT3 has less feel, there is less weight over the front axel and the front end has never been great, the only way porsche can fix this was to add rear wheel steer to the 991

"is a lot quicker in pretty much every guise"
I should hope so it has 100bhp more, but that imo makes it look a bit slow when you can ni on keep up with on in a R with 100bhp less and of course corner faster
and brake later. The R prob quicker than a MK1 on track, and can match the MK2, even a 981 boxster can lap the same as a mk2 GT3 now.


"and feels way more special"
not really, that is just a personal thought, looks the bks yes, does not feel more special.

"Chasing down the redline in a GT3 is simply a wonderful experience"
yes true if you can find some where to do it, which means on track really.

"This doesn't mean that the CR is an utter piece of crap either - it's a perfectly good road car,"
it's a great road car if you want a sports car and like driving. imo

"handles well enough"
you mean it handles better than a GT3, it's a better lay out, is more responsive, steer better, etc etc every thing a mid engine layout brings.

"but it is not as good as a GT3 in any sense."
not as good in what sense, not as good a track car true, but a better road car. but not a good status car either to be with the in gang !

"You've probably read some utter drivel about gear ratios etc and how the R is so much better as a road car because it has better gear ratios than a GT3 - this is desperate clap trap to me."
this is pretty much on the nose for me and a hugh issue the GT3 has as a road car, it not only the ratios, it's the peak toqrue, so you really have to be >6k revs to enjoy a GT3 to the max (why did Porsche put a Short ratio box in the GT3 4.0 even with 500bhp and more torque) because it just works better.
peak torque in the R is 4750rpm so you don't have to red line it to get the max from the R, you can drop it in at 4750rpmand be on it again. THe GT3 you do have to red line to drop it back into the next gear at 6k

"I own an R and to be honest I really like it, it's a nice car but it is not the best thing since sliced bread and if you wish to remain legal on any b road, you'll not escape 2nd gear and you'll certainly get nowhere near top of third unless you're happy to flirt with going to jail."
what's a better sports road car at any where near the same price ? have you changed the camber on your car and pads, tyres etc those 3 things along bring the car alive.

In my mind an R needs a higher revving engine, with better noise, more power and in general needs more feel, from the steering and chassis to be able to begin to approach a GT3
imo it don't, high reving engines are a pain in the arse on UK roads. better noise can be fixed with a manifold, this will also give you the a power boost you want.
(but you state that the R is already to fast !! )
As for feel it has more feel than a GT3, get your geo setup, and a mid engine platform is more responsive to input, so imo you don't know what you are talking about now !

"In summary, an R feels like what it is. A half hearted effort from an exceptional car manufacturer"
I disagree, yes the bhp was pinned at 330, but the rest of the car is amazing as a road car, it was never a track car or a race car for the road.

"which means that it is in actual fact a very good car but one that has been deliberately restrained and you feel that when you drive it."
I don't feel that way at all, you already said you can easy do over a ton very fast, some say even the 2.7 is too much for the road, a R is about perfect to thrash about with.

"Whereas every GT3, I have driven feels like it's the absolute best effort from an exceptional car manufacturer and you feel that difference when you drive it too."
sell your R and buy a GT3 then !!! best effort is a poor effort then, PASM on a "race car for the road" stupid holed disks made of cheese and a front end which has never worked that well. It's taken tech to make a GT3 silly fast and now the 991 can have the traction, but now also has the turn in.

The GT4 will prob lap quicker than any past GT3 even with 375bhp, the 991 has moved the game on so much with rear wheel steer, The GT4 has a space now.
To end the R and Spyder DON't make good track cars unless you mod them, the GT3 makes a far better track car, are Porsche made for track, NO they are road cars through and though, but yes you can track them but even on the GT3 you have to set them up and most owners mod them.

what does annoy me is Spyder and R owners who never change a thing, run stty oem safe geo and insist on N spec tyres, grow some balls make the R and SPyder what it can be.

what's more in Spyder guise, you can do all that with the roof off, which brings in another thrill.

a few nice Spyder laps, that looks a st time and sounds crap lol NOT
http://youtu.be/0vNeLjB9IXA?list=UUL-Rm-7D8xHVNA8A...


Edited by mrdemon on Saturday 22 November 10:08

V8KSN

4,711 posts

183 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
OP, I agree totally. The Cayman R is a great car, the GT3 is a great car.

Some people prefer the way the R drives and some people prefer the way the GT3 drives.

Then you get some people that just want to argue they are right and EVERYONE ELSE is wrong.

GT3cs

1,200 posts

240 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
I'll add my experience from ownership ....

996 GT3 Clubsport - fantastic car

997 GT3 Clubsport -fantastic car

Cayman R - fantastic car . Not quite GT3 level but surprised me how good for the money ( but not a GT3 )

991 GT3 Clubsport - I'll tell you in 3 hrs :-)

I'd quite happily have any / all of them in the garage .

mrdemon

21,146 posts

264 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
I also think the GT3 is a great car, no one can knock having that engine.

I would also love one in my garage with a few mods ;-) was thinking a 997.2 with 3 ways and short final drive but decided to plump for a GT4.

The GT3 also makes the better track car out the box, looks cooler, holds money better, has more status etc etc

people think I am anti GT3 which is just not true.
What I don't like is the GT3 gang on here who say black is white and if challenged you get personal abuse.

Both cars can be bettered, both have area they excel in, both are the right car to own if you know what you want the car for.

jackal

11,248 posts

281 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
997 GT3 better than a cayman in every single way. 996 GT3 better than 997 GT3. 993RS & 964RS better still.

Whats better than a 93/64RS ? I'm not certain and have yet to drive it. One thing's for sure it wont be anything modern and appreciably quicker. Soon as you have a car that is more 'good' and faster than 93/64RS the fun factor starts to drain away. It also probably won't be anything mid or front engined either. It could be older, maybe a 3.2 CS but going older that the 64/93 sweetspot brings other issues into play.

mrdemon

21,146 posts

264 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
jackal said:
997 GT3 better than a cayman in every single way. 996 GT3 better than 997 GT3. 993RS & 964RS better still.

Whats better than a 93/64RS ? I'm not certain and have yet to drive it. One thing's for sure it wont be anything modern and appreciably quicker. Soon as you have a car that is more 'good' and faster than 93/64RS the fun factor starts to drain away. It also probably won't be anything mid or front engined either. It could be older, maybe a 3.2 CS but going older that the 64/93 sweetspot brings other issues into play.
lets take the 964 RS, it's weight is about the same as a R and is about the same size. I think the R is the 964RS of the future, a slow burner now like the RS was then will be very sort after.

as for your GT3 "better than a Cayman in every single way" that's when some peoples blinkers are firmly on.

"996 GT3 better than 997 GT3" that will split opinion :-)

AndrewD

7,527 posts

283 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
I'm surprised at the well-known keyboard warriors on this thread. You must have worked out "better" just means self justifying claptrap by now. Go and spend time with your families and friends, or visit an ENT consultant and get your nasally whining voice fixed.

Just off out in the cgt tongue out

ArcticGT3

977 posts

211 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
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I'm busy polishing my space shuttle

AndrewD

7,527 posts

283 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
ArcticGT3 said:
I'm busy polishing my space shuttle
Not as good as a Saturn V though. Lacks feel and not as resolved

keep it lit

3,388 posts

166 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
AndrewD said:
ArcticGT3 said:
I'm busy polishing my space shuttle
Not as good as a Saturn V though. Lacks feel and not as resolved
But Saturn V only went one way... unlike the shuttle and a GT3 smile

Slippydiff

14,742 posts

222 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
AndrewD said:
Not as good as a Saturn V though. Lacks feel and not as resolved
Nonsense, the Gen 2 Saturn 5 6 GT2 experience is dominated by the massive thrust of the engine,
it could never be considered as having a sybiotic relationship with its chassis. The Gen 1 6 shuttle is a far sweeter drive. I frequently drive my Shuttle flat out, in fact many is the time I've left home at 100% throttle for the first 3 minutes despite the manual saying that I should throttle back to 65% to ensure the vehicle doesn't break up as I leave the earth's atmosphere.

Added to which production of the shuttle in all its iterations has only recently ceased, and whilst getting parts out of NASA for them can prove troublesome, it's nothing like trying to get parts for a vehicle that NASA stopped producing nearly 40 years ago. I'm sorry, but buying stuff off ebay or the PH classifieds for a 40 year old highly specialised vehicle like the Saturn 5 GT2 isn't an option for me.

I tried the Saturn 5 6 GT2 , it's good, but all that landing in the sea nonsense was a complete PITA. At least with the Shuttle I can land on the M5 late at night and be home within ten minutes.

I like the Gen 2 7 shuttle a lot, but find the PASM (Powered Ascent Shock Management) overly intrusive. If someone would design a passive system that enabled me to play with orbital exit speeds, I'd probably trade my Gen 1 in.

The Shuttle R is a very well resolved vehicle, but for me the mid engine design makes it far too stable, put bluntly I don't drive at 17,800 mph and expect the vehicle to be stable. The very nature of the Gen 1 6 Shuttle with it's rear engine design makes it a far edgier drive at the limit (and below it).

Sure all the Shuttle 6 versions have front ends that "understeer", but that's a very intrinsic part of their appeal. You can either speak to the various independent specialist NASA service agents and get them to alter the front vector geometry, OR you can learn to drive the vehicle in such a way as to nullify the understeer. Or as I've done in the past, you can have modifications carried out to the vehicle to make it more composed irrespective of atmospheric conditions (the fitment of Ohlins) Overt Handling Linear Improvement Nicely Sorted)

Leaving the earth's atmosphere in a Saturn 5 is a piece of piss, it's a sledgehammer. Leaving the earth's atmosphere in the Shuttle R with its stable platform is equally easy (despite it's wheezy characterless engines)

In a Shuttle 6, with it's lesser power (compared to the Saturn 5 GT2 type 6) and inherently unbalanced platform, you have to work at the process, and that for me (and many others I suspect) is the attraction of the Shuttle 6.

Here's the launch of my Shuttle 6 a few weeks ago : (probably best to get a glass or can of something and make yourself comfortable) smile

I spent a fortune on GoPros to get this footage, I hope you enjoy and appreciate it. smile

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFwqZ4qAUkE




jackal

11,248 posts

281 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
AndrewD said:
I'm surprised at the well-known keyboard warriors on this thread. You must have worked out "better" just means self justifying claptrap by now.
It's true ... I know a bloke who cancelled his Speciale order in a pram/toy moment cos the dealer didnt lick his b^m enough. Now he goes round saying his 991 GT3 is better. biggrin




Scooty100

1,469 posts

115 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
[quote=jackal]997 GT3 better than a cayman in every single way. 996 GT3 better than 997 GT3. 993RS & 964RS better still.


Solely opinion. Ones mans meat another poison but I respect your views

Scooty100

1,469 posts

115 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
GT3cs said:
I'll add my experience from ownership ....

996 GT3 Clubsport - fantastic car

997 GT3 Clubsport -fantastic car

Cayman R - fantastic car . Not quite GT3 level but surprised me how good for the money ( but not a GT3 )

991 GT3 Clubsport - I'll tell you in 3 hrs :-)

I'd quite happily have any / all of them in the garage .
Dying to know your first thoughts on the new car mate. Pics and spec ASAP


So in this thread we are talking about the current cayman R vs GT3's BUT how about GT4 VS 997 GT3 CS...Who would swap into the GT4?


Edited by Scooty100 on Saturday 22 November 15:08

PR36

341 posts

115 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
What i can't understand in these unbelievably boring debates is what is the criteria for one car being 'better' than another. If it comes down to sheer pace which i guess is the point of a sports car then surely the GT3 is going to win hands down no question. So as this doesn't seem a given, presumably it comes down to this other stuff about feel, driver involvement, chassis balance, on limit handling, steering feel, dynamics blah blah etc etc which would appear to be very subjective especially as i wonder how many people on here really know what any of that means and can honestly say they can drive there car on the limit. I suspect many cayman r owners want to believe their car is as good as a GT3 as they have a little of the 'david and goliath' syndrome, whereas some GT3 owners have never really pushed there car but say there is nothing better because of its presence, the stickers, the wing, the noise and the whole myth surrounding the car. Anyway, i love my cayman for what it is and how good or bad it is in relation to anything else makes not one bit of difference. Cheerio.

keep it lit

3,388 posts

166 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
PR36 said:
What i can't understand in these unbelievably boring debates is what is the criteria for one car being 'better' than another. If it comes down to sheer pace which i guess is the point of a sports car then surely the GT3 is going to win hands down no question. So as this doesn't seem a given, presumably it comes down to this other stuff about feel, driver involvement, chassis balance, on limit handling, steering feel, dynamics blah blah etc etc which would appear to be very subjective especially as i wonder how many people on here really know what any of that means and can honestly say they can drive there car on the limit. I suspect many cayman r owners want to believe their car is as good as a GT3 as they have a little of the 'david and goliath' syndrome, whereas some GT3 owners have never really pushed there car but say there is nothing better because of its presence, the stickers, the wing, the noise and the whole myth surrounding the car. Anyway, i love my cayman for what it is and how good or bad it is in relation to anything else makes not one bit of difference. Cheerio.
sorry did you mention previously that you wanted a race?

jackal

11,248 posts

281 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
quotequote all
Scooty100]ackal said:
997 GT3 better than a cayman in every single way. 996 GT3 better than 997 GT3. 993RS & 964RS better still.


Solely opinion. Ones mans meat another poison but I respect your views
Yeah totally ... completely relevant to my own persomal criteria which a) i havent stated and b) no one would care about in any case

But hey, its the internet, nothing makes sense, who cares etc.. wink

The only salient point here is that as time go on, Demon is cultivating more and more hatred for the Cayman rather than anything else.


]

Edited by jackal on Saturday 22 November 15:57