997 GT3 Gen1 clubsport

[Richie200]

Here is another picture which may be more useful

[Cheburator mk2]

fioran0 said:

Steve
I have all the tech info for all the ABS (and thus PSM,TC etc etc) on all the 996/997/CGT street cars. I will email you the summary of what's on the 997.1GT3, what the system does, parameters etc etc.
I'm not for getting in to it on a public board and the thread will turn into a clu$terf&c& if I do.

That is a real shame! For a change I would like to learn more about the system on my Mk1 CS.

As to your idea about swapping a 996 early system into a 997 I can tell you even without looking at the pinouts that it will not work. The 996 is as primitive as it gets - it is a three channel system, which sees the rear axle as one. Moreover, the 996.1 uses a throttle actuated by cable; lastly, there is no traction control, Hence there is absolutely no need for communication between the Motronic and the ABS ECU.

On the other hand, the 997 has fly-by-wire throttle, ABD and TC. Hence, comms between the ABS/TC and Motronic are vital. Unlike early cars, they would talk via CanBus. 996 and 997 use a different version of it. It would be like me writing in Finnish and you in English. Both of us will use the Latin alphabet, but that's where the similarities would end.

Even if a Mk2 996, with its fly-by-wire unit theoretically could go in, you are still missing the code for the ABD/TC. Hence abandon ye all hope on that front.

Lastly, speaking from experience - trying to modify the code on a Porsche 928 electronically controlled LSD (959 part number) - no sane person would modify the factory code on a vital component such as ABS/ABD/TC. Think of the personal liability problems if something was to go wrong. Everyone has suggested the following...

The Bosch Motorsport ABS unit is a work of art, can be integrated into pretty much any modern car and most importantly - Bosch will write the code for you and your car provided you pay them. But you probably know this already

Now then, pretty please can we have the info that you have. If it degenerates into a fight, then pull it... But don't stop the exchange of excellent info.

Thanks in advance.

[VPD255M]

Cheburator mk2 said:

Now then, pretty please can we have the info that you have. If it degenerates into a fight, then pull it... But don't stop the exchange of excellent info.

Thanks in advance.

+1

[Steve Rance]

fioran0 said:

Steve
I have all the tech info for all the ABS (and thus PSM,TC etc etc) on all the 996/997/CGT street cars. I will email you the summary of what's on the 997.1GT3, what the system does, parameters etc etc.
I'm not for getting in to it on a public board and the thread will turn into a clu$terf&c& if I do.

Neil. Much appreciated. look forward to studying it.

[Steve Rance]

Richie200 said:

Hi Steve, I'm still awaiting the answer regarding the brake set-up on my car (x-mas break getting in the way of things) but here are a few pictures I took the other day of the BMC, ABS unit and the front & rear brake set-up. I was surprised to find a small run of Braided steel brake lines between the BMC and ABS unit. Also the cable loom going into the ABS unit also looks a little over exposed to me (maybe an indication of some splicing on wires). It would be great if anyone has any pictures of the stock set-up so that a comparison can be made. As soon as I know anymore I'll update.

Richard. Thank you. From reading Neil's summary of the ABS function, I doubt that the braking system has been much modified - unless you have an adjustable brake bias on the dash which I doubt?

[fioran0]

Heres the link the my thread earlier in the year containing the link for the ABS Braking Strategy Seminar

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[Richie200]

Steve you are correct; no adjustable brake bias controller fitted. The previous owner probably had similar feelings to your good self as the diff has been altered (9:32 final, not sure which plates). Maybe with an uprated diff, the ABS and ABD do not cause the problems you discussed earlier to such an extent that you need to adapt your braking strategy too much. I think a good approach would be to do the absolute minimum necessary (PASM removal, uprate diff, discs/pads of choice) then test and see how you feel. You might be lucky and the car is exactly what you are aiming for at this point. Either way, many thanks for sharing your thoughts and project on an open forum. It is great to see the wealth of knowledge laid on the table here by you guys for the benefit of us mere mortals

[fioran0]

Cheburator mk2 said:

That is a real shame! For a change I would like to learn more about the system on my Mk1 CS.

As to your idea about swapping a 996 early system into a 997 I can tell you even without looking at the pinouts that it will not work. The 996 is as primitive as it gets - it is a three channel system, which sees the rear axle as one. Moreover, the 996.1 uses a throttle actuated by cable; lastly, there is no traction control, Hence there is absolutely no need for communication between the Motronic and the ABS ECU.

On the other hand, the 997 has fly-by-wire throttle, ABD and TC. Hence, comms between the ABS/TC and Motronic are vital. Unlike early cars, they would talk via CanBus. 996 and 997 use a different version of it. It would be like me writing in Finnish and you in English. Both of us will use the Latin alphabet, but that's where the similarities would end.

Even if a Mk2 996, with its fly-by-wire unit theoretically could go in, you are still missing the code for the ABD/TC. Hence abandon ye all hope on that front.

Now then, pretty please can we have the info that you have. If it degenerates into a fight, then pull it... But don't stop the exchange of excellent info.

Thanks in advance.

Thats a surprisingly forceful post. I had simply taken a course around it initially but I caught it again and so wanted to just point out that its almost wholly incorrect.

Edited by fioran0 on Sunday 4th January 04:44

[fioran0]

Richie200 said:

the diff has been altered (9:32 final, not sure which plates).

Are you sure on the 9:32 ring and pinion? Ive only heard of an 8:33 alternative to the factory 8:32 R&P to try and add some longevity to the final drive section. I wonder who made it if thats whats in there?

[Richie200]

fioran0 said:

Richie200 said:

the diff has been altered (9:32 final, not sure which plates).

Are you sure on the 9:32 ring and pinion? Ive only heard of an 8:33 alternative to the factory 8:32 R&P to try and add some longevity to the final drive section. I wonder who made it if thats whats in there?

I'm not entirely certain of which components were fitted. I took a picture of the info/spec sheet that was in the showroom next to the car when I bought it:


I have also found the invoice for when the engine and gearbox were recently converted to 3.8l and also the gearbox revision (you may be able to make something out of this; Getriebe is gearbox in german):



This video may give you an idea of the final drive as I take the car to the top of 3rd about 165kph:
http://vid1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah147/richar...

[jfp]

fioran0 said:

Heres a relink to my post with the ABS braking strategy seminar with Darrick Dong.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=141...

Darrick Dong - banned from many a pit lane the world over....... What he says must be true ;-)....

[fioran0]

Richie,

It says on the first picture that you have the 9:35 final drive in there. Thats the R&P used on the 997.2 3.8 RS. Its 3.89 (versus the 3.44 used in the regular GT3, and the 4 used on the Cups etc)

[Cheburator mk2]

fioran0 said:

Thats a surprisingly forceful post. I had simply taken a course around it initially but I caught it again and so wanted to just point out that its almost wholly incorrect.

Edited by fioran0 on Sunday 4th January 04:44

Run me through what is wrong - maybe I have misread something in the electric diagrams or how TC/ABS/ABD works?

[Richie200]

fioran0 said:

Richie,

It says on the first picture that you have the 9:35 final drive in there. Thats the R&P used on the 997.2 3.8 RS. Its 3.89 (versus the 3.44 used in the regular GT3, and the 4 used on the Cups etc)

Many thanks for the clarification what you say makes sense as the previous owner effectively wanted the car upgraded to match/supersede the later model Gen II, hence the Gen II engine/rear wing/engine cover/airbox... So the Gen II R&P sounds the most feasible components used for the 'gearbox revision'

[keep it lit]

Richie200 said:

I'm not entirely certain of which components were fitted. I took a picture of the info/spec sheet that was in the showroom next to the car when I bought it:


I have also found the invoice for when the engine and gearbox were recently converted to 3.8l and also the gearbox revision (you may be able to make something out of this; Getriebe is gearbox in german):



This video may give you an idea of the final drive as I take the car to the top of 3rd about 165kph:
http://vid1379.photobucket.com/albums/ah147/richar...

Awesome car to own mate very well done !!!!

[Richie200]

keep it lit said:

Awesome car to own mate very well done !!!!

I have a hard-on that is yet to subside Can't wait for the warmer weather to arrive so that I can run the new engine in

[ttdan]

Richie200 said:

fioran0 said:

Richie,

It says on the first picture that you have the 9:35 final drive in there. Thats the R&P used on the 997.2 3.8 RS. Its 3.89 (versus the 3.44 used in the regular GT3, and the 4 used on the Cups etc)

Many thanks for the clarification what you say makes sense as the previous owner effectively wanted the car upgraded to match/supersede the later model Gen II, hence the Gen II engine/rear wing/engine cover/airbox... So the Gen II R&P sounds the most feasible components used for the 'gearbox revision'

gen2 RS has a slightly taller 6th gear ratio, helps the motorway "cruise" with the final drive change , I wonder if they did that change too? car looks like a whole heap of fun.

[Richie200]

ttdan said:

Richie200 said:

fioran0 said:

Richie,

It says on the first picture that you have the 9:35 final drive in there. Thats the R&P used on the 997.2 3.8 RS. Its 3.89 (versus the 3.44 used in the regular GT3, and the 4 used on the Cups etc)

Many thanks for the clarification what you say makes sense as the previous owner effectively wanted the car upgraded to match/supersede the later model Gen II, hence the Gen II engine/rear wing/engine cover/airbox... So the Gen II R&P sounds the most feasible components used for the 'gearbox revision'

gen2 RS has a slightly taller 6th gear ratio, helps the motorway "cruise" with the final drive change , I wonder if they did that change too? car looks like a whole heap of fun.

I would guess the original gear set is installed as I didn't notice any particularly large step in ratios when driving. To be honest though, the weather conditions were not great when I picked her up last month so trying anything silly in 5/6th wasn't on the agenda. As soon as the better weather arrives I will pay a little more attention on this front

[JarmoL]

keep it lit said:

Awesome car to own mate very well done !!!!

Indeed, fantastic spec! Teichmann had very interesting Manthey build 996 mk1 gt3 as well some time ago. It was 3.9 with carbon bodyparts etc. (Same red one that was sitting at Manthey's display couple of years ago)
Unfortunately(luckily!) it was sold when I was there in October.

[keep it lit]

JarmoL said:

Indeed, fantastic spec! Teichmann had very interesting Manthey build 996 mk1 gt3 as well some time ago. It was 3.9 with carbon bodyparts etc. (Same red one that was sitting at Manthey's display couple of years ago)
Unfortunately(luckily!) it was sold when I was there in October.

Hi J

Yup seen the 996 red Manthey Monster car epic !

you coming down for any of the THREE DN days this summer mate ?