996/997 GT3 how obtainable are they.
Discussion
Hi guys,
Odd thread title I know as it's relative to a lot of factors (mainly disposable income).
I am currently on the hunt for a BMW E46 CSL or a 1M but a 996/997 GT3 has always been my goal/dream but is obviously another ~£20,000 plus more than both of the BMWs.
My question is, how many of you have financed the purchase of your GT3s? (or is it the case of, if you can't afford to buy it outright then you can't afford it?)
I'm not in a position of being able to buy something outright and won't be for the foreseeable future as I have a two year old and another on the way (and I'm not a corporate/company director sadly). Plus I have a very large mortgage on a house back in New Zealand (which takes care of itself)
Do I keep saving towards outright GT3 ownership or will I not be able to keep up with the price increases these will see in the coming months/years?
My gut says, if I don't finance then I'll never quite have one within reach, but on the same note, I've never had finance on a car before I've always purchased outright. Certainly not on the level of any of the cars I mention though, BMW E30 M3/ Ford Sierra Cosworth RS territory is as high as I've been in the past.
What ever I get won't be a daily driver, I'm certainly aiming to do at least a couple of trackdays per year in what ever I end up with, the upside of the Porsche over the BMW beside being more 'able' on track is the future values.
I'm looking at the very bottom end of what's on offer in terms of GT3s, is Pistonheads, Autotrader and eBay the only places I should be looking for cars
I hope my post makes vague sense
Am I just a dreamer and should come back to reality or could/should I push to make this work?
Cheers, Ollie.
[edit-typos]
Odd thread title I know as it's relative to a lot of factors (mainly disposable income).
I am currently on the hunt for a BMW E46 CSL or a 1M but a 996/997 GT3 has always been my goal/dream but is obviously another ~£20,000 plus more than both of the BMWs.
My question is, how many of you have financed the purchase of your GT3s? (or is it the case of, if you can't afford to buy it outright then you can't afford it?)
I'm not in a position of being able to buy something outright and won't be for the foreseeable future as I have a two year old and another on the way (and I'm not a corporate/company director sadly). Plus I have a very large mortgage on a house back in New Zealand (which takes care of itself)
Do I keep saving towards outright GT3 ownership or will I not be able to keep up with the price increases these will see in the coming months/years?
My gut says, if I don't finance then I'll never quite have one within reach, but on the same note, I've never had finance on a car before I've always purchased outright. Certainly not on the level of any of the cars I mention though, BMW E30 M3/ Ford Sierra Cosworth RS territory is as high as I've been in the past.
What ever I get won't be a daily driver, I'm certainly aiming to do at least a couple of trackdays per year in what ever I end up with, the upside of the Porsche over the BMW beside being more 'able' on track is the future values.
I'm looking at the very bottom end of what's on offer in terms of GT3s, is Pistonheads, Autotrader and eBay the only places I should be looking for cars
I hope my post makes vague sense
Am I just a dreamer and should come back to reality or could/should I push to make this work?
Cheers, Ollie.
[edit-typos]
Edited by Geesus on Saturday 27th December 17:24
I'm fortunate enough to own my cars outright at mo, however I've financed lots of my previous cars & I'm still alive to talk about it!!
Many here will tell you;
Never finance a depreciating asset...
Buy a flat & rent it out...
If you have to ask, blah, blah, blah...
Think about the running costs...
The world is about to crash...
If you can afford the payments & have factored in depreciation & running costs then i say go for it
Many here will tell you;
Never finance a depreciating asset...
Buy a flat & rent it out...
If you have to ask, blah, blah, blah...
Think about the running costs...
The world is about to crash...
If you can afford the payments & have factored in depreciation & running costs then i say go for it
ferdi p said:
I'm fortunate enough to own my cars outright at mo, however I've financed lots of my previous cars & I'm still alive to talk about it!!
Many here will tell you;
Never finance a depreciating asset...
Buy a flat & rent it out...
If you have to ask, blah, blah, blah...
Think about the running costs...
The world is about to crash...
If you can afford the payments & have factored in depreciation & running costs then i say go for it
I agree with this, everyone's circumstances differ but car ownership costs and those costs are what you need to be able to afford. Depreciation, interest on any loan needed and running costs. Add that lot up with a realistic approach, work out how long you want to own it and bingo, you will know if you can afford it or not. Many here will tell you;
Never finance a depreciating asset...
Buy a flat & rent it out...
If you have to ask, blah, blah, blah...
Think about the running costs...
The world is about to crash...
If you can afford the payments & have factored in depreciation & running costs then i say go for it
Its a personal call only you can make.
The ownership vs financing is a red herring. That's just a question of how you pay for it, I've always done ownership route as I think it works out better, but arguably with finance rates so low there's not a lot in it. Given all the other costs, the cost difference between ownership and financing is small beer in my opinion.
Your question is more about 'how much of my hard earned do I want to spend on my porsche hobby' (assuming you have enough disposable after mortgage has been paid, kids fed, bills paid etc and emergency fund established).
Some basic home economics will tell you if its affordable, you then need to decide how much of your true disposable income do you want to spend on a porsche ownership.
factor in regular running costs (tax, insurance, fuel, MOT) then 'other predictables' (warranty, tyres, discs etc) and then 'misc' (probably one unexpected bill per year, track days?) then depreciation (though on a GT3 you may be able to assume £0). Someone recently posted a very helpful 5 year ownership cost for a RS60. Take a look. think about how many years you plan to have car and then viola you can work out an annual (and monthly) running cost. Assuming that less than your true disposable income you're in business if you want to be.
Given you are asking the question, I'm guessing its borderline so be careful with man maths.
J
The ownership vs financing is a red herring. That's just a question of how you pay for it, I've always done ownership route as I think it works out better, but arguably with finance rates so low there's not a lot in it. Given all the other costs, the cost difference between ownership and financing is small beer in my opinion.
Your question is more about 'how much of my hard earned do I want to spend on my porsche hobby' (assuming you have enough disposable after mortgage has been paid, kids fed, bills paid etc and emergency fund established).
Some basic home economics will tell you if its affordable, you then need to decide how much of your true disposable income do you want to spend on a porsche ownership.
factor in regular running costs (tax, insurance, fuel, MOT) then 'other predictables' (warranty, tyres, discs etc) and then 'misc' (probably one unexpected bill per year, track days?) then depreciation (though on a GT3 you may be able to assume £0). Someone recently posted a very helpful 5 year ownership cost for a RS60. Take a look. think about how many years you plan to have car and then viola you can work out an annual (and monthly) running cost. Assuming that less than your true disposable income you're in business if you want to be.
Given you are asking the question, I'm guessing its borderline so be careful with man maths.
J
Don't see a problem with financing a car if you can afford the repayments and it doesn't impose on you or your family's lifestyle.
With the way the market is going and if you do decide to dispose of the car before you pay the loan off you may be able to break even as a worst case.
I always regret not borrowing the £30k I needed to buy a 993 GT2 when they were around £120k...
With the way the market is going and if you do decide to dispose of the car before you pay the loan off you may be able to break even as a worst case.
I always regret not borrowing the £30k I needed to buy a 993 GT2 when they were around £120k...
I personally dont finance my cars but i wouldnt have any hesitation financing a 96 GT3 if i needed to to get into one. If theres one porsche thats due to spring its this one. In a few years any interest on the finance deal might be virtually negligible compared to the amount by which they appreciate. Seriously undervalued right now imo, esp. if like me, you consider them to be the very best of the water cooled cars. Act quickly imo.
m33ufo said:
GT3's aren't depreciating though?
Hi guys, thanks a lot for the replies so far.I'm going out on a limb here but surely it's almost a given that both the 996 and 997 GT3s have gone as low as they will depreciation wise?
In terms of financing, it wouldn't cross my mind to finance if I didn't think the car would be an appreciating asset.
Obviously running costs, tax etc might be a different story but in terms of purchase price vs future resale, surely it will sell for more than what I would have paid for it.
What are peoples thoughts on the long term investment in terms of 996 vs 997 GT3?
It's a dream to own either but I do prefer the look of the 997, but I would still grab at whichever one people feel may be the better long term investment.
There's a couple of pretty good cars for sale back in New Zealand, perhaps I should have bought one with me when I relocated back in May
2007 997 GT3 8,600 Mile $140,000 NZD £69,000 GBP
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/porsche/...
2000 996 GT3 60,000 Mile $65,000 NZD £32,500 GBP
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/porsche/...
Edited by Geesus on Saturday 27th December 22:45
Geesus said:
Hi guys, thanks a lot for the replies so far.
I'm going out on a limb here but surely it's almost a given that both the 996 and 997 GT3s have gone as low as they will depreciation wise?
In terms of financing, it wouldn't cross my mind to finance if I didn't think the car would be an appreciating asset.
Obviously running costs, tax etc might be a different story but in terms of purchase price vs future resale, surely it will sell for more than what I would have paid for it.
In today's market probably, yes. But in tomorrow's market? Who knows? Having lived through the eighties car boom I am wary of bubbles. But in the last 18 months I have sold a mint 1970 2.2s, a good 3.2 and a 996 GT3 at what I thought were toppish prices only to see the market soar further. So what do I know?I'm going out on a limb here but surely it's almost a given that both the 996 and 997 GT3s have gone as low as they will depreciation wise?
In terms of financing, it wouldn't cross my mind to finance if I didn't think the car would be an appreciating asset.
Obviously running costs, tax etc might be a different story but in terms of purchase price vs future resale, surely it will sell for more than what I would have paid for it.
Check this ad from the last boom for some perspective though. It would take more than two decades for the market to recover to these pre-crash prices again.
IMHO, a 996 gt3 is a safe car to leverage.
A. Firstly it should not depreciate further. However, if if there was to be a correction of sorts, what is the worst case - £10k? Anything beyond that is serious systemic breakdown.
So, can you fathom £10k loss? You are not going to have a total capital write off (unless you track the car uninsured and have an unfortunate write off accident)
The reality is the car will stay same value or rise...so capital is safe.
B. Maintenance costs are a separate affair and the more you track, the higher they will be. If the car does not appreciate significantly then these will eat into your 'business case'. Again, the question is can you afford circa £3k+ of maintenance costs per annum of a lightly tracked car.
If you can accept A (very pessimistic view) and B (probably optimistic view since if you get smitten you will track more) then go for it!
Personally, I would on a 996 GT3. My preference is for the mk2 models, but I know there is plenty of love of the mk1 too.
If you find you cannot afford it, you can always jump out and sell it easily. Just buy one in condition that is east to sell (or haggle upfront if it has some issues)
A. Firstly it should not depreciate further. However, if if there was to be a correction of sorts, what is the worst case - £10k? Anything beyond that is serious systemic breakdown.
So, can you fathom £10k loss? You are not going to have a total capital write off (unless you track the car uninsured and have an unfortunate write off accident)
The reality is the car will stay same value or rise...so capital is safe.
B. Maintenance costs are a separate affair and the more you track, the higher they will be. If the car does not appreciate significantly then these will eat into your 'business case'. Again, the question is can you afford circa £3k+ of maintenance costs per annum of a lightly tracked car.
If you can accept A (very pessimistic view) and B (probably optimistic view since if you get smitten you will track more) then go for it!
Personally, I would on a 996 GT3. My preference is for the mk2 models, but I know there is plenty of love of the mk1 too.
If you find you cannot afford it, you can always jump out and sell it easily. Just buy one in condition that is east to sell (or haggle upfront if it has some issues)
Edited by LaSource on Sunday 28th December 08:00
I'd say if you really want one I'd buy one asap! It could be really easy to miss the boat from my own experience when wanting to swop out of my 993 for a 993 turbo several years ago. The cost of change was a little bit outside my comfort zone but if I had, I'd more than doubled my money and plus some now!! Now they well out of reach, but never mind.
I currently run a 996.1 gt3 with cage, buckets etc, it's a cracking car and a great occasion to get out in it. I've only done a half track day in it so far and it was incredible and terribly addictive. Like has been said above if start tracking them a lot I think it will cost you a fortune in consumables and maintaince etc. For this reason unfortunately I'm looking into buying a carterham asap as lighter and less expensive all round to track.
I say go for it and I'm in the same age bracket as you more or less. Can't see you going wrong with either 997 or 996. My mates 997 sounds incredible as standard. Just be aware of the all in track day costs, soon mount up.
I currently run a 996.1 gt3 with cage, buckets etc, it's a cracking car and a great occasion to get out in it. I've only done a half track day in it so far and it was incredible and terribly addictive. Like has been said above if start tracking them a lot I think it will cost you a fortune in consumables and maintaince etc. For this reason unfortunately I'm looking into buying a carterham asap as lighter and less expensive all round to track.
I say go for it and I'm in the same age bracket as you more or less. Can't see you going wrong with either 997 or 996. My mates 997 sounds incredible as standard. Just be aware of the all in track day costs, soon mount up.
Thanks a lot for the replies so far guys.
It seems it's slim pickings in the 996 GT3 camp by the looks of Pistonheads at the moment. Is that the best place to be looking or are there other places to look?
996 GT3 Mk 2 (2004) £54,995 (judging from their website a deposit has been placed on this car)
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
996 GT3 (2005) £58,995
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
997 Wise there's only this
997 GT3 (2007) Porsche warranty March 2016 £64,950
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
Or this Cat D 997 GT3 (2007) £51,000
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2014...
Is there any advantage in a GT3 without a roll cage? It's not like I'd be gaining 2 extra seats for the kids in the back so why have one without a cage? Is a caged GT3 lighter than one without (does it not have sound deadening in the back etc?
I must admit I'm very much a novice when it comes to Porsche so if anyone has any links at hand to good articles I'd love to see them.
It seems it's slim pickings in the 996 GT3 camp by the looks of Pistonheads at the moment. Is that the best place to be looking or are there other places to look?
996 GT3 Mk 2 (2004) £54,995 (judging from their website a deposit has been placed on this car)
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
996 GT3 (2005) £58,995
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
997 Wise there's only this
997 GT3 (2007) Porsche warranty March 2016 £64,950
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
Or this Cat D 997 GT3 (2007) £51,000
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2014...
Is there any advantage in a GT3 without a roll cage? It's not like I'd be gaining 2 extra seats for the kids in the back so why have one without a cage? Is a caged GT3 lighter than one without (does it not have sound deadening in the back etc?
I must admit I'm very much a novice when it comes to Porsche so if anyone has any links at hand to good articles I'd love to see them.
Edited by Geesus on Sunday 28th December 16:20
Edited by Geesus on Sunday 28th December 16:21
Edited by Geesus on Sunday 28th December 16:23
Geesus said:
Thanks a lot for the replies so far guys.
It seems it's slim pickings in the 996 GT3 camp by the looks of Pistonheads at the moment. Is that the best place to be looking or are there other places to look?
Demand is such that some 996GT3s get sold without being advertised these days. Sometimes an owner will casually mention in a thread that they're thinking of selling and next thing you know a buyer contacts them and a deal is done. There was a thread a few weeks ago from an owner thinking of selling his MK1 guards red clubsport. I'll bet that it got snapped up within a few hours of the topic being posted.It seems it's slim pickings in the 996 GT3 camp by the looks of Pistonheads at the moment. Is that the best place to be looking or are there other places to look?
The first one you've linked above was mine.
My needs changed and I hardly ever got to use the car and whilst I realise it was an appreciating asset I'd bought it to drive and it spent most of its time in the garage along with a couple of other toys.
I wanted a 911 suitable for both the wife and I to drive so went for a 997 GTS.
That GT3 is a lovely car though and I do miss it.
Regards
Fred
My needs changed and I hardly ever got to use the car and whilst I realise it was an appreciating asset I'd bought it to drive and it spent most of its time in the garage along with a couple of other toys.
I wanted a 911 suitable for both the wife and I to drive so went for a 997 GTS.
That GT3 is a lovely car though and I do miss it.
Regards
Fred
boxsey said:
Demand is such that some 996GT3s get sold without being advertised these days. Sometimes an owner will casually mention in a thread that they're thinking of selling and next thing you know a buyer contacts them and a deal is done. There was a thread a few weeks ago from an owner thinking of selling his MK1 guards red clubsport. I'll bet that it got snapped up within a few hours of the topic being posted.
Thanks for the tip, what are the most frequented forums for UK GT3 owners then chaps?I am in the same boat and seriously considering a GT3. People will always justify their own purchases but as I see it, very much as an outsider,, there is very little price wise between a 996 and 997.1 when you account for mileage etc.
Also whilst prices have been rising, I do think the rate of increase has slowed somewhat and the hot market we had for anything air cooled and GT3/RS wise seems to have declined a little. Likewise for E30 M3s and the London property market. Perhaps the slowdown of the Asian economies is having an effect.
Peraonally, I am also thinking of something air cooled as well. A decent 3.2 with a few track mods would be quite a machine. Possibly cheaper than a GT3 and arguably as much fun?
Also whilst prices have been rising, I do think the rate of increase has slowed somewhat and the hot market we had for anything air cooled and GT3/RS wise seems to have declined a little. Likewise for E30 M3s and the London property market. Perhaps the slowdown of the Asian economies is having an effect.
Peraonally, I am also thinking of something air cooled as well. A decent 3.2 with a few track mods would be quite a machine. Possibly cheaper than a GT3 and arguably as much fun?
I had two 46 CSLs but I could not get the gt3 itch out of my mind so I took the plunge back in June and went for a guards red mk2 gt3.
It was right time for me and I was lucky to get in before the market moved I guess.
Its a great car which needed a decent service, some new tyres, wheels refurbed, some paintwork and tlc but I want it to be a keeper so will take my time. It had new discs and rs29 pads all round so not bad ;-)
Its a legendary car, like the csl, but a very different drive and challenge. Its got 70k miles on the clock as its been used but I wont do more than 2k a year so hey ho.
Originally a comfort spec but has half cage, bucket seats, harnesses, new alcantara steering wheel and gear lever as well as sports exhaust.
If it was me I would go the extra mile for the porker as it just feels super special when you take it out and they are going up in value all the time.
It was right time for me and I was lucky to get in before the market moved I guess.
Its a great car which needed a decent service, some new tyres, wheels refurbed, some paintwork and tlc but I want it to be a keeper so will take my time. It had new discs and rs29 pads all round so not bad ;-)
Its a legendary car, like the csl, but a very different drive and challenge. Its got 70k miles on the clock as its been used but I wont do more than 2k a year so hey ho.
Originally a comfort spec but has half cage, bucket seats, harnesses, new alcantara steering wheel and gear lever as well as sports exhaust.
If it was me I would go the extra mile for the porker as it just feels super special when you take it out and they are going up in value all the time.
Edited by DasChin on Sunday 28th December 19:29
Edited by DasChin on Sunday 28th December 19:39
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