Another cyclist dies in London
Discussion
lived in London for a few years, used to wait at bus stop next to a busy junction, every cyclist went through the junction on red lights, ran into the sides of trucks and cars. Used to walk across zebra crossings and cyclists never stopped, bouncing off pedestrians and riding off.
I was hit by a cyclist whilst crossing a road as a pedestrian, the cyclist blamed me for crossing the road.
I was hit by a cyclist whilst crossing a road as a pedestrian, the cyclist blamed me for crossing the road.
TfL released this a while back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzL0Kyk4m-8
It's properly shocking and makes you realise it takes two to tango most times. Unfortunately (and I say this as a cyclist) the lack of access to formal training for road riding past your cycling proficiency aged 8 or whatever, means many cyclists simply wouldn't grasp how much danger they can put themselves in at times. Just like driving, appropriate road positioning is king, as is knowing when to be defensive, when to stash the ego, and when being more offensive (I don't mean using the finger...!) is actually safer.
It's properly shocking and makes you realise it takes two to tango most times. Unfortunately (and I say this as a cyclist) the lack of access to formal training for road riding past your cycling proficiency aged 8 or whatever, means many cyclists simply wouldn't grasp how much danger they can put themselves in at times. Just like driving, appropriate road positioning is king, as is knowing when to be defensive, when to stash the ego, and when being more offensive (I don't mean using the finger...!) is actually safer.
BGarside said:
And another truck involved. What is it with cyclists and trucks in London??
Though I've never lived in London, cycling in lots of other parts of the country I've generally not had any issues with truck drivers, with most of the hassles coming from car (& bus) drivers.
I'm pretty sure this isn't a case of trucks mowing down cyclists by over taking them and not seeing them or anything straightforward like that. Nine times out of ten the cyclist will have gone up the inside and the truck won't have seen them before a left turn or lane change.Though I've never lived in London, cycling in lots of other parts of the country I've generally not had any issues with truck drivers, with most of the hassles coming from car (& bus) drivers.
i cycle 2 or 3 times a week to work and run the rest, the amount of times i'm sat at a major junction in Twickenham and cyclist just ignore the red lights is unbeleivable,
they seem to think they are invincible, ive also been subject to some scary manouveres by drivers as well.
we all share the road and time to resoect every road user and pedestrain.
they seem to think they are invincible, ive also been subject to some scary manouveres by drivers as well.
we all share the road and time to resoect every road user and pedestrain.
Running red lights has resulted in almost no fatal accidents from the figures I last saw. Not saying its right but its an irrelevance, the issue is people getting run over by trucks as they're not fit to be on the tight streets of London with the lack of safety features they have, and of course cyclists awareness is often not up to scratch either.
Also the stupidly relaxed laws on running over and killing someone on a bike, i.e. you'll likely get off with nothing more than a few hours of wasted time in the station means not a lot will change I guess.
Also the stupidly relaxed laws on running over and killing someone on a bike, i.e. you'll likely get off with nothing more than a few hours of wasted time in the station means not a lot will change I guess.
okgo said:
Running red lights has resulted in almost no fatal accidents from the figures I last saw. Not saying its right but its an irrelevance, the issue is people getting run over by trucks as they're not fit to be on the tight streets of London with the lack of safety features they have, and of course cyclists awareness is often not up to scratch either.
Also the stupidly relaxed laws on running over and killing someone on a bike, i.e. you'll likely get off with nothing more than a few hours of wasted time in the station means not a lot will change I guess.
Agree with all the above, cyclists in London seem to be able to interact with nearly all vehicles from motorbikes to articulated lorries without dying. It's almost exclusively skip and tipper lorries that are killing cyclists.Also the stupidly relaxed laws on running over and killing someone on a bike, i.e. you'll likely get off with nothing more than a few hours of wasted time in the station means not a lot will change I guess.
okgo said:
Running red lights has resulted in almost no fatal accidents from the figures I last saw. Not saying its right but its an irrelevance, the issue is people getting run over by trucks as they're not fit to be on the tight streets of London with the lack of safety features they have, and of course cyclists awareness is often not up to scratch either.
Also the stupidly relaxed laws on running over and killing someone on a bike, i.e. you'll likely get off with nothing more than a few hours of wasted time in the station means not a lot will change I guess.
can you link to the 'statistics'?Also the stupidly relaxed laws on running over and killing someone on a bike, i.e. you'll likely get off with nothing more than a few hours of wasted time in the station means not a lot will change I guess.
'run over by trucks as they are not fit...' is emotionally charged.
'relaxed laws'? you need to prove intent to kill, driving without due care or similar.
We don't know the full facts in this and most other cases, but it's normally 'complicated', as they say.
Smitters said:
TfL released this a while back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzL0Kyk4m-8
It's properly shocking and makes you realise it takes two to tango most times. Unfortunately (and I say this as a cyclist) the lack of access to formal training for road riding past your cycling proficiency aged 8 or whatever, means many cyclists simply wouldn't grasp how much danger they can put themselves in at times. Just like driving, appropriate road positioning is king, as is knowing when to be defensive, when to stash the ego, and when being more offensive (I don't mean using the finger...!) is actually safer.
What I can't figure out about that video is why half of the blind spot mirror is looking at the cab, if it was adjusted correctly most of those cyclists would be visible.It's properly shocking and makes you realise it takes two to tango most times. Unfortunately (and I say this as a cyclist) the lack of access to formal training for road riding past your cycling proficiency aged 8 or whatever, means many cyclists simply wouldn't grasp how much danger they can put themselves in at times. Just like driving, appropriate road positioning is king, as is knowing when to be defensive, when to stash the ego, and when being more offensive (I don't mean using the finger...!) is actually safer.
Robert Elise said:
can you link to the 'statistics'?
'run over by trucks as they are not fit...' is emotionally charged.
'relaxed laws'? you need to prove intent to kill, driving without due care or similar.
We don't know the full facts in this and most other cases, but it's normally 'complicated', as they say.
There are a LOT of cases where driving without due care has resulted in death. But they get let off. Here is one that sounds like an obvious lack of due care - http://road.cc/content/news/140616-articulated-lor...'run over by trucks as they are not fit...' is emotionally charged.
'relaxed laws'? you need to prove intent to kill, driving without due care or similar.
We don't know the full facts in this and most other cases, but it's normally 'complicated', as they say.
Well to be honest, a truck with a blindspot that big isn't safe to be in an area like Central London IMO. Certainly not at the same time that thousands of people are cycling to work.
I will try to find the figures.
okgo said:
Well to be honest, a truck with a blindspot that big isn't safe to be in an area like Central London IMO. Certainly not at the same time that thousands of people are cycling to work.
Perhaps it's the cyclists that aren't fit to be on the road if they're so impatient that they'd rather put themselves in a dangerous blind spot than just hang back and wait a moment...Blue Oval84 said:
Perhaps it's the cyclists that aren't fit to be on the road if they're so impatient that they'd rather put themselves in a dangerous blind spot than just hang back and wait a moment...
Isn't that just plain victim blaming?Also lets not forget that a lot of the accidents do not involved blind spots, they're just massive driver error, like that one I linked to, like the one on High Holborn where she was run over from behind by a tipper truck and dragged 20m up the road under the truck.
okgo said:
Isn't that just plain victim blaming?
Yep, with good reason. Even in my car I've had cyclists undertake me in the middle of a left turn whilst I was indicating, only the fact I saw them at the last second stopped a collision. In a truck, they wouldn't have been seen, but it wouldn't be the driver's fault, it would be theirs.Have you seen the TFL video showing the enormous scale of the blind spots? Cyclist have a responsibility for their own safety to be aware of these and I'm afraid if they choose to place themselves in the zone where the driver cannot see them then they should be riding defensively enough to not end up under the wheels...
gazza285 said:
Smitters said:
TfL released this a while back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzL0Kyk4m-8
It's properly shocking and makes you realise it takes two to tango most times. Unfortunately (and I say this as a cyclist) the lack of access to formal training for road riding past your cycling proficiency aged 8 or whatever, means many cyclists simply wouldn't grasp how much danger they can put themselves in at times. Just like driving, appropriate road positioning is king, as is knowing when to be defensive, when to stash the ego, and when being more offensive (I don't mean using the finger...!) is actually safer.
What I can't figure out about that video is why half of the blind spot mirror is looking at the cab, if it was adjusted correctly most of those cyclists would be visible.It's properly shocking and makes you realise it takes two to tango most times. Unfortunately (and I say this as a cyclist) the lack of access to formal training for road riding past your cycling proficiency aged 8 or whatever, means many cyclists simply wouldn't grasp how much danger they can put themselves in at times. Just like driving, appropriate road positioning is king, as is knowing when to be defensive, when to stash the ego, and when being more offensive (I don't mean using the finger...!) is actually safer.
I live and cycle in central London and have noticed a lot more trucks, lorries and buses are displaying warning signs on the back about not riding up the inside and some even play a recorded message warning against it when the vehicle is indicating. I think this is a good step.
As for jumping red lights. I think car drivers get hung up on it because they can't do it. The difference is that, on a bike you are far far more aware visually and aurally of what dangers are around you. Going through a red in a car is asking for trouble as you are largely blind and largely deaf whereas on a bike there are many situations where it is safer to jump than to not.
Most deaths are caused by cyclist riding up the inside of large vehicles turning left. If the cyclist, aware that the lights are about to change and that the road is clear, jumps the red by a few seconds, they are out of harms way. If they sit there waiting for the truck to move off with them, they are in far more danger.
I am not saying that all cyclists should jump the lights in all situations, I am just highlighting that it is not the same as doing it in a car.
okgo said:
Isn't that just plain victim blaming?
Also lets not forget that a lot of the accidents do not involved blind spots, they're just massive driver error, like that one I linked to, like the one on High Holborn where she was run over from behind by a tipper truck and dragged 20m up the road under the truck.
To be fair right now it's 50/50 whose to blame until we know more. Just because someone's dead doesn't make him blameless (and indeed it could even be debated who the victim is).Also lets not forget that a lot of the accidents do not involved blind spots, they're just massive driver error, like that one I linked to, like the one on High Holborn where she was run over from behind by a tipper truck and dragged 20m up the road under the truck.
gazza285 said:
Smitters said:
TfL released this a while back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzL0Kyk4m-8
It's properly shocking and makes you realise it takes two to tango most times. Unfortunately (and I say this as a cyclist) the lack of access to formal training for road riding past your cycling proficiency aged 8 or whatever, means many cyclists simply wouldn't grasp how much danger they can put themselves in at times. Just like driving, appropriate road positioning is king, as is knowing when to be defensive, when to stash the ego, and when being more offensive (I don't mean using the finger...!) is actually safer.
What I can't figure out about that video is why half of the blind spot mirror is looking at the cab, if it was adjusted correctly most of those cyclists would be visible.It's properly shocking and makes you realise it takes two to tango most times. Unfortunately (and I say this as a cyclist) the lack of access to formal training for road riding past your cycling proficiency aged 8 or whatever, means many cyclists simply wouldn't grasp how much danger they can put themselves in at times. Just like driving, appropriate road positioning is king, as is knowing when to be defensive, when to stash the ego, and when being more offensive (I don't mean using the finger...!) is actually safer.
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