991 GT3 Prices - 50 cars available!

[ThirtySomething]

Anyone want a PTS Mexico Blue car with a average spec?

[ThirtySomething]

terryb said:

For every 991GT3 that has a £20k reduction, there are 2 being put on the market at top dollar - even one at £185k just now. This shows us that some are in no rush to sell at all and just speculating - the few that do need to sell will be the ones with the larger price drops.

The market is In a strange place and who knows what will happen when the RS hits the streets - fact is we don't know and the reviews may be so good that it pulls the values of GT3s up with them as the very next best thing. Who knows???

I've recently bought a 991GT3 and paid over list and whilst I wish I had been in a position to buy a new one at list, I do not regret my purchase as it is worth every penny. In my view there is no alternative for the money, even at current prices. I would bet that the majority that have owned a 991GT3 and have driven a regular 991 with PDK would feel the same way - as it is so much more of a package than the lesser models - for those that enjoy driving, which I would assume all GT3 owners would be.

Let's face it - those who want one will talk the values down and those who own one will talk values up - so a bit pointless as most have an agenda here

For someone who says their is a lot of bks on this thread can sure speak a lot of bks too.

If you are advertising at 185k then you are clearly not a seller, more likely a market manipulator. No idiot, well there is always one I suppose, will pay 185k for a car when a similar car is available for 40k+ less.

I don't buy the GT3 RS bks of dragging up GT3 prices. We all know what the RS is more or less going to be like, the reviews are out there. If people want a RS, they want a RS, they are not gonna pay stupid overs to a get the next best thing. And wait till all the RS flippers hit the market .....

I'm glad for you that you bought one and you enjoy the car. No one here is saying that it is not an awesome machine. However, this market has been manipulated in my opinion, and the fact that you keep trying to defend the *overs* price you paid, shows that depreciation of the car matters to you! If you want to tell everyone how great the car is there is another thread on that, this one is unashamedly about prices. Read the title '991 GT3 Prices - 50 cars available!'

Edited by ThirtySomething on Thursday 25th June 00:56

Edited by ThirtySomething on Thursday 25th June 00:57

[ThirtySomething]

lemmingjames said:

I really am rubbish at putting across what i mean, what im trying to say if it wasnt for Apollo stating the cars would be £180k by x, then there wouldnt be this sort of 'rejoicing' that the cars are coming back down and proving him wrong.

Not that he cares as he's probably flipped all of his by now, has a rhd/lhd RS on order (x2, one for driving, the other for showing naturally), 4x GT4's due to FOMO etc

Well said!

And I think he is not the only secret trader on here.

[ThirtySomething]

s2000db said:

Wasn't a secret, was it??

Well, he clearly wasn't transparent about the duplicate number of cars he owned and speculator he was.

If people knew that, then they would have seen straight through his intentions and all the posts/hype he was creating.

[ThirtySomething]

Slippydiff said:

I'd suggest you establish who Apolo is and what if any his links are to Porsche AG, I think you'll then better appreciate how he's been able to access the cars.

Hmm. A poster on PH emailed me about his link to Porsche AG.

I invite him on here to clarify his position ! (wishful thinking).

[ThirtySomething]

terryb said:

Pot, kettle, etc

Your opinion on prices is just that - your opinion and whilst it is shared by others it is still only an opinion. Others have a different opinion - that's real life. I don't expect the prices to rise and have never bought a car expecting to make money on it. I buy cars to drive and indeed drive them properly. It's a shame that some others don't as I think it's criminal - the GT3 of any generation should be driven properly oth on road and track - if not then the point of the car is being missed.

Anyway, back to the thread topic - currently 50 cars available - with that there are a few cheaper ones than 2 weeks ago and a few more expensive ones.

If you're so fixated by this, then why not start a spreadsheet and calculate the average value and then update on a weekly basis and post up on PH for all to see - it might just make you happy

Meanwhile, I'll be keeping happy driving my car, enjoying the occasional launch control for extra giggles and getting excited about my impending 1st Ring trip in this car . It wouldn't matter what I paid for the car - the ownership experience is exactly the same no matter what the price

I agree with you, everyone has and is entitled to their opinions, and forums are great way for deducing probable facts once you start looking past the bullst. But mate, c'mon, p-l-e-a-s-e, what is the relevance of those cars advertised at 185k? Honestly tell me, when you can see there are 50+ cars and they are trading at sub 140k now for full spec cars. If tomorrow someone advertises a car at 200k, are you going to post a thread "200k 991 GT3 has arrived" ? Irrelevant!

And owners like you can't stop helping yourself posting on this thread.. Why? Be honest! It hurts .... because for most people ownership experience can be tainted by huge depreciation and by feeling they were caught by the manipulation.

Anyway, I'll stop giggling now and prepare my spreadsheet!

[ThirtySomething]

terryb said:

Owners like me? What a stupid comment !!! I think this is my 4th post on this thread over the last couple of weeks - WOW - last of the prolific posters

I knew when I bought mine that we were on the brink of change due to the vast number for sale. However I was given what I considered to be a great deal on the car I wanted combined with a brilliant trade-in on my 4 month old Cayenne GTS. I expected to lose quite a few £££s on the Cayenne, so if I lose the same number of £££s on the GT3 over the same period, I'll be much happier, having owned the car I really wanted. The Cayenne was a "try to be sensible idea", but that's just not me - but I gave it a try

So in my view and my last comment on this thread is that whatever happens to the prices, I don't really care (unless the prices drop to something ike £60k in 4 years, which just isn't going to happen and anyone who thinks they will is just a damned fool and knows nothing about the historic value of GT3s or is perhaps a soon to be GT4 owning naysayer .....) - I know I will have enjoyed THE BEST Porsche on the market today - FACT

Now I must get ready to go to the Goodwood Festival of Speed - Porsche VIP complimentary tickets don't you know

So the market was on the brink of change, and you got a great deal on your part-ex. LOL.

The dealer must have seen you coming, and no wonder he threw in some VIP tickets as well.

Well, thank christ that's your 4th and final post!

[ThirtySomething]

Looks very similar to the 4RS advertised here on PH last month at £350k.

[ThirtySomething]

V8KSN said:

If by the end of the year you expect to see 991 GT3's back at list, where then do you see the prices for the 996 and 997 GT3's?

In relation to that, where do you see the prices for a 991 GTS or Targa sitting? Or even a 991 C2S?

There is no reason why you can't have dislocated markets where 991 is trading below a 997 and even possibly a 996. How do you explain that 996 GT3 are trading almost at par to 997.1 GT3? And 996RS are trading ABOVE 997.1 RS.

The average joe who walks into a Porsche showroom doesn't want a hardcore street racer like a GT3. He walks in looking for an upgrade to his BMW M3 or Audi RS# .... and is happy enough to walk out with a boggo standard brand new 991 C2S.

Also, unlike house prices where there is a supply issue which is unlikely to be solved even in the medium term, car manufacturers are continuing to ramp up production and produce new models and new variants. The high-performance end of the market can only absorb a certain amount of supply. Therefore, this bubble will ultimately burst. Which will be great for the true enthusiasts and hopefully put the speculators to bed.

[ThirtySomething]

I doubt that a great deal can be had on this since the owner is still some 25k away from current market and has to pay JZM SOR fees, but maybe worth a phone call and cheeky bid to those who are looking to accept prices will still fall but looking to get in at fairer levels. The car has been on JZM website for near 3 months and advert has included the following now:

"Our Client Is Keen To Talk & Open To Offers"

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...

Be in mind, this won't be last 'open to offers' car, especially as RS and GT4 deliveries appear, you will certainly see the appearance of even more committed and motivated sellers, and bigger price drops.

[ThirtySomething]

pete a said:

[quote=

I assume the other two have gone back to their owners rather than sold? Maybe someone who deals with JZM regularly can ask?

Yes, the red and 'white with stripe' were both SOR, both unsold by JZM and returned to owners I presume.

Dealers have been artificially trying to keep the market propped up for some time, by keeping their cars in the high 160s. However, we are well into summer and with no one really biting (apart from terryb! lol ), with the first GT4s being delivered and very imminent RS deliveries, dealers are very much aware they need to be aggressively cutting prices to get a sale before even more cars start coming on to this very saturated market and they get stuck with even bigger loses!

The white JZM car is now cheapest on the market at this moment, at 136k, but I expect many other dealers to start re-adjusting their prices very soon.

Being saying all along, this market is like catching a falling knife.

[ThirtySomething]

Black_mamba said:

what was the list price for a well spec'd car? Out of interest what was the highest price recorded?

A very well spec'd car was 120k - 125k. The average spec car was 115k, and list was £104,500. The Porsche configurator is still up on their website if you want to check exact list prices of options.

Highest price recorded used ... debatable due to all the price manipulations and internet folklore, but I know first hand of very high spec cars that sold for 170k, so approx. 50k overs was the peak at beginning of year.

Edited by ThirtySomething on Friday 3rd July 09:27

[ThirtySomething]

mdianuk said:

So if we see cars back down at list price, in the 120's, do you reckon they will sell fast, or has this car got further to drop? I'm monitoring one specific GT3 which is perfect spec for me, but still £20k beyond where I consider it should be!

In my experience, when bubbles burst, they tend to fall more than what people expect, and then rise back to some sort of fair value. If you see 50+ cars advertised at list hypothetically at the end of summer, will you still buy or will you expect further price drops? Some people will of course dip their toes in, others won't. The problem is the vast majority of people here have become speculators and the Porsche brand in particular has become a target for investors. In addition, as been mentioned here, there are other risks to further price falls outside the 991GT3 supply equation. Porsche may well increase supply of GT4 and RS models, they may introduce a manual super sports version, and other manufacturers are also releasing comparable products. Historically many people forget that under normal market conditions new cars have generally been a depreciating asset.

[ThirtySomething]

isaldiri said:

That might well be the best way of assessing the hard liquid cash value of the car but it's not really a 'fair' value either is it. The true value of the car is what end buyers are happy to be paying for them, not the (massively skewed) bids from a dealer OPC or otherwise who is going to be determined to get his pound of flesh on both sides.

Right now, I'm not sure what has been more unseemly... the constant gloating of some owners about prices rises previously or the constant gloating of price falls now by some wanting to buy....

We need to apply some sensible logic here!

What is more skewed - The prices of cars being advertised at various significant overs from 135k - 185k or hard liquid trade cash value??

Quite obvious and logically there is only ONE correct answer! If you phone around a couple of dealers you will find a median trade value. Dealers will only bid at what level they feel the end buyers are happy to pay less their profit margin. So profit margin on car like this will be quite easily a minimum of 10k for an independent and up to 15k for OPC. Right now you will be pressed hard to find any dealer paying more than 10k over list price. Hence, from this analysis you can determine 'fair value' with relative ease.

Does it effect driver enjoyment?

No, I don't think price depreciation affects driver enjoyment. However, it certainly affects the Porsche ownership experience, especially if you were duped into buying at overs because people here were saying your money was safe in 991 as prices were going to 200k!

Edited by ThirtySomething on Friday 3rd July 19:56

[ThirtySomething]

Scooty100 said:

Can u still order these?

No, but a number of people who originally missed out are now being offered build slots. Clearly Porsche are filling their boots and numbers being produced are well above 132 original build numbers being touted .... its now well over 300. Hence maybe partly why you have a choice of 50 cars now!

[ThirtySomething]

Wilmslowboy said:

I've not heard of anyone being offered a slot this year ??? I know there is some late builds still going through but I thought these were sold / filled late last year ??

Chap on this thread has one if you read a few pages above and I know of one other too.

[ThirtySomething]

Some very interesting comments and I think Mermaid has pointed out very well that a significant number of these cars have hardly been driven. So either speculators or as Alpinestar has also alluded, they just did not gel with the car.

[ThirtySomething]

From a purely business perspective, JZM have probably done the correct thing, by aggressively remarking their own cars ahead of everyone else in order to get shot of their stock. The Agate grey car was their own I believe, and I suspect they came out flat or with a small loss. They still own the white GT3 comfort which is currently the cheapest on the market.

Interesting they pulled the red car (which is SOR) before re-adjusting prices maybe to give impression they were shifting 991 stock. Despite the 20k remarking, I think it is still overpriced now with glaring omission of front-axle lift, so it needs to start with a 130 handle in my opinion. However, owner is still open to offers and I suspect will take one.

I also notice Romans have followed suit and lowered price of their white GT3 as well.

Edited by ThirtySomething on Sunday 5th July 10:40

[ThirtySomething]

GT3cs said:

If that's the case why don't porsche just sell the cars for higher list price and therefore they maximise profit , rather than the OPC that apart from Reading have no connection to Porsches profit ?

Porsche dealers are only allowed to sell new cars at list. This is a directive straight from HO.

However, as some here have mentioned, it does not stop OPCs selling to their mates, then buying back the car, and putting back up at significantly higher prices. Unethical for sure, but when money is involved integrity is lacking.

[ThirtySomething]

GT3cs said:

Yes I understand that , my point is there is no benefit to Porsche to list the cars low when new , as it's only the OPC who makes any profit when the car comes in used , and they have no connection Porsche . As has been said earlier the market drives the price , not sure why there so many conspiracy theories .......

Porsche felt they priced the car correctly. Remember, across the rest of the world, GT3s were not that hard to come by, so this is a UK phenomenon, which is unsustainable in long-term. Instead of Porsche increasing prices which is a more risky proposition to the brand and world-wide pricing structure, they have significantly increased supply to UK, so build numbers have gone from original touted 132 to 300+ (with some cars still being delivered). I expect Porsche will to respond also by significantly increasing both GT4 and RS numbers.