996 Buying Advice
Discussion
Hi Guys
Looking to dip my toe into 996 land. The budget will be around 16k tops. Will only be doing 3k miles a year most will be in the summer. You hear horror stories bottom oil seal goes around 80k and its a big bill. Can you guys just give me ballpark figures on the items below. Seen a private sale 996 2002 71k miles its had a service new pads discs, and everything works as it should. £15450
1) Service costs at an Independent Specialist
2) New clutch cost
3) discs pads etc
4) Anything else you experts feel relevant
Thanks in advance Paul
Looking to dip my toe into 996 land. The budget will be around 16k tops. Will only be doing 3k miles a year most will be in the summer. You hear horror stories bottom oil seal goes around 80k and its a big bill. Can you guys just give me ballpark figures on the items below. Seen a private sale 996 2002 71k miles its had a service new pads discs, and everything works as it should. £15450
1) Service costs at an Independent Specialist
2) New clutch cost
3) discs pads etc
4) Anything else you experts feel relevant
Thanks in advance Paul
Horror stories are more than just oil seals, read this:
http://www.hartech.org/porsche_996_997_Boxster_fre...
They're great cars but you need to go in with yours eyes open and have a slush fund ready should the worst happen. Some bits are reasonable, other's aren't but that's typical of owning a Porsche. General servicing shouldn't be too bad, but things like radiators require checking regularly so having the service carried out by a company that knows the cars is essential.
Do your reading is all I'll say.
http://www.hartech.org/porsche_996_997_Boxster_fre...
They're great cars but you need to go in with yours eyes open and have a slush fund ready should the worst happen. Some bits are reasonable, other's aren't but that's typical of owning a Porsche. General servicing shouldn't be too bad, but things like radiators require checking regularly so having the service carried out by a company that knows the cars is essential.
Do your reading is all I'll say.
Most think a pre-purchase inspection is a good idea, particularly to look for bore score, etc.
I would put Millers NanoDrive 10W-50 into it straight away;; seems the best engine protection you can get. About £200 all-in for that at and Indy. Easy to do yourself, as well and repeat every 12 months.
Depending on who you get them done with, clutch around £1000 all-in and all brake discs/pads about £4-500. Might be an idea to get IMS looked at/upgraded while doing clutch, if not done already.
There is a great book (101 projects for your 996) that can save you loads, by showing you how to do a lot of things yourself; very satisfying, too.
Low-temperature thermostat is also recommended by many and water pump often done at same time.
Overall though, they are fantastic value right now and great cars.
I would put Millers NanoDrive 10W-50 into it straight away;; seems the best engine protection you can get. About £200 all-in for that at and Indy. Easy to do yourself, as well and repeat every 12 months.
Depending on who you get them done with, clutch around £1000 all-in and all brake discs/pads about £4-500. Might be an idea to get IMS looked at/upgraded while doing clutch, if not done already.
There is a great book (101 projects for your 996) that can save you loads, by showing you how to do a lot of things yourself; very satisfying, too.
Low-temperature thermostat is also recommended by many and water pump often done at same time.
Overall though, they are fantastic value right now and great cars.
hilly10 said:
You hear horror stories bottom oil seal goes around 80k and its a big bill.
The oil seal is the rear main seal, that sometimes weeps. The seal doesn't fail and oil doesn't gush out killing the engine, it merely weeps a little bit. Unacceptable on a new car (hence the rep) but on a 13 year old 70k mile car you just ignore the very occasional drop on your driveway until the clutch is replaced then its a 20 minute job.The bores can wear prematurely on the 3.6 - look for evidence of soot on the tail pipes. Early 3.4s had different piston coating so not affected. This is reasonably common. A thing called the IMS bearing fails sometimes- an american judgement found 8% of 3.6s and 1% of 3.4s were affected. You rarely hear of a UK failure.
The whole problems have been blown out of proportion on the internet - mainly IMO because of the expectation that a Porsche is bullet proof.
Aside from that is it one of the best engines ever built, in the most sublime handling chassis - just read any contemporary road test.
Edited by was8v on Wednesday 26th August 15:46
The early 3.4 engines are virtually unknown to bore score. A tiny fraction have ever experienced the IMS issue. Later 3.6 engines and Gen 1 997's can potentially bore score. Gen 2 996's a little more susceptible to IMS. But you have to remember, the numbers are miniscule. What's happening on certain forums out there, and I don't mean this cynically, is that certain well meaning specialists who literally depend on Porsche engine issues for ongoing business continue to hype up the issue by continually raising. There is also a well known pattern of 'new users' whose first time post is IMS related and then they disappear forever never to comment again. What you hear very little about as a result is just how powerful and drivable these water cooled flat sixes are. in actual fact, they are utterly brilliant engines. Especially given that the one or two key weakness points can be easily addressed. So buy with a little common sense and a bit of thought and you'll get yourself something truly magical.
rubystone said:
I bought a '98 58k mile cab back in in March. 2,000 fun miles later still waiting for it to die one of the Internet deaths.... I love it...no plans to move it in yet....
You could unfortunately be one of the 99% of people who miss out on the internet death. But you should still drop a few grand with Hartech anyway jus to share the pain. Do a pre-emptive rebuild or something, anything so as not to feel left out.Sine Metu said:
You could unfortunately be one of the 99% of people who miss out on the internet death. But you should still drop a few grand with Hartech anyway jus to share the pain. Do a pre-emptive rebuild or something, anything so as not to feel left out.
Why???If it's not broken.....drive it!
It is getting so predictable for cmoose to pop up with unsubstantiated criticism of us - yet again - I don't know what his problem is? or his connection to competitors (if any)?
We are available when owners have problems and do a great job for them to achieve a better outcome than others.
We do not criticise the engines but praise the cars and repeatedly state they are a great buy and brilliant cars and that failures are rare.
But every day of the week we talk to owners who have a failure and struggle to afford a rebuild to get anything back from a car and a manufacturer they assumed would provide a more reliable car. We also put right lots of problems less capable competitors have tried to fix.
If we never mentioned any of this more owners who do have a failure would not have our option to consider. We don't force anyone to come to us and don't bully them into the rebuild content - w just advise and help them any way we can.
If we never mentioned any of this fewer people would take account of how much they can afford to spend and if they should include some form of warranty etc - just in case.
Instead of just making unsubstantiated claims we reinforce all our posts with technical answers that you will find no one can fault or take on except if they have a histrionic dislike of us being so capable and successful.
There is no other specialist that posts anything like as much information, do a much research and have developed such a comprehensive range of cost effective solutions.
We invested a small fortune in our provisions (see new video available on our web site www.hartech.org) ad have every right to inform people about that when appropriate or when questions are asked about the related problems.
Information is valuable to intelligent people considering buying a particular model or those experiencing a failure and seeking help.
No one forces anyone to read what we post nor become our customer - and almost all that we post is in direct response to a question to us from someone seeking an answer - which we always do our best to provide a comprehensive answer to and are unique in taking the time and making the effort to do so.
It is not our fault that this engine range do have problems and it is to the benefit of many owners that we invested so much in providing an excellent range of rebuild solutions plus inexpensive parts (like our low temperature thermostat) to help people actually avoid or delay failures (effectively reducing our repair market).
We are an honourable business providing a good service and if anyone has a gripe at that please start a new topic and take us on with facts and technical or statistical back up to show what your problem is rather than hide behind unsubstantiated rhetoric to try and discredit people that have made a massive effort for over a decade to help owners with problems that emanate from the original manufacturer.
Baz
We are available when owners have problems and do a great job for them to achieve a better outcome than others.
We do not criticise the engines but praise the cars and repeatedly state they are a great buy and brilliant cars and that failures are rare.
But every day of the week we talk to owners who have a failure and struggle to afford a rebuild to get anything back from a car and a manufacturer they assumed would provide a more reliable car. We also put right lots of problems less capable competitors have tried to fix.
If we never mentioned any of this more owners who do have a failure would not have our option to consider. We don't force anyone to come to us and don't bully them into the rebuild content - w just advise and help them any way we can.
If we never mentioned any of this fewer people would take account of how much they can afford to spend and if they should include some form of warranty etc - just in case.
Instead of just making unsubstantiated claims we reinforce all our posts with technical answers that you will find no one can fault or take on except if they have a histrionic dislike of us being so capable and successful.
There is no other specialist that posts anything like as much information, do a much research and have developed such a comprehensive range of cost effective solutions.
We invested a small fortune in our provisions (see new video available on our web site www.hartech.org) ad have every right to inform people about that when appropriate or when questions are asked about the related problems.
Information is valuable to intelligent people considering buying a particular model or those experiencing a failure and seeking help.
No one forces anyone to read what we post nor become our customer - and almost all that we post is in direct response to a question to us from someone seeking an answer - which we always do our best to provide a comprehensive answer to and are unique in taking the time and making the effort to do so.
It is not our fault that this engine range do have problems and it is to the benefit of many owners that we invested so much in providing an excellent range of rebuild solutions plus inexpensive parts (like our low temperature thermostat) to help people actually avoid or delay failures (effectively reducing our repair market).
We are an honourable business providing a good service and if anyone has a gripe at that please start a new topic and take us on with facts and technical or statistical back up to show what your problem is rather than hide behind unsubstantiated rhetoric to try and discredit people that have made a massive effort for over a decade to help owners with problems that emanate from the original manufacturer.
Baz
Must admit I've toyed with buying an early 996 for 18 months now, but the general 'they'll break your bank in a flash' stories have put me right off...
Part of thinks 'are they really that bad' ?? but then I'm not wild on taking a £10k gamble with an added £10k bill if it is..real shame tbh
Part of thinks 'are they really that bad' ?? but then I'm not wild on taking a £10k gamble with an added £10k bill if it is..real shame tbh
You said - "The way the likes of Hartech promote themselves could certainly be criticised and the faithful worship at the altar of all things Hartech that can go on around here is often silly".
And "But if you think many if if any are doing pre-emptive £10k rebuilds at all let alone as a consequence of Hartech messaging then I think you've lost it a little bit!"
OK cmoose I can see a kind of ambiguity in your comment above and if your intentions were to support us I apologise I genuinely didn't read it that way.
Engine rebuilds rarely cost £10K (even with lots of future proofing) and the older cars tend to be better because they often have ferrous coated pistons and if the uncracked cylinders have the ovality reduced by us and fitted with support rings they can make a reliable rebuild at much lower cost.
Customers often decide to replace worn clutches and flywheels at the same time (which is obviously much cheaper) but can add up to a larger bill.
But if you were on our maintenance plan you would not only enjoy a very inexpensive way to run your car (for as long as you want to stay on the scheme with no age, mileage or cost limit) but if your engine needed a rebuild the labour (like with most repairs on the scheme) would be FOC and cost in very low single figure £K.
The difficulty with later engines is that the cylinder bores are best all replaced (still the customers choice) although they often already have the later IMS shaft with the larger IMS bearing.
Baz
And "But if you think many if if any are doing pre-emptive £10k rebuilds at all let alone as a consequence of Hartech messaging then I think you've lost it a little bit!"
OK cmoose I can see a kind of ambiguity in your comment above and if your intentions were to support us I apologise I genuinely didn't read it that way.
Engine rebuilds rarely cost £10K (even with lots of future proofing) and the older cars tend to be better because they often have ferrous coated pistons and if the uncracked cylinders have the ovality reduced by us and fitted with support rings they can make a reliable rebuild at much lower cost.
Customers often decide to replace worn clutches and flywheels at the same time (which is obviously much cheaper) but can add up to a larger bill.
But if you were on our maintenance plan you would not only enjoy a very inexpensive way to run your car (for as long as you want to stay on the scheme with no age, mileage or cost limit) but if your engine needed a rebuild the labour (like with most repairs on the scheme) would be FOC and cost in very low single figure £K.
The difficulty with later engines is that the cylinder bores are best all replaced (still the customers choice) although they often already have the later IMS shaft with the larger IMS bearing.
Baz
BEP said:
Must admit I've toyed with buying an early 996 for 18 months now, but the general 'they'll break your bank in a flash' stories have put me right off...
Part of thinks 'are they really that bad' ?? but then I'm not wild on taking a £10k gamble with an added £10k bill if it is..real shame tbh
I have to admit this is where I am at. I went to see a car at a Porsche specialist this morning, it looked very nice bodywork was superb for a 1999 car, there was also all the service stamps etc from new. I just cannot get past the mileage at 86k is that to much. I plan to keep the car 5 years then get rid by then it will have over 100k, the figure most people dread, and stop dead in their tracks when reading the advert.Part of thinks 'are they really that bad' ?? but then I'm not wild on taking a £10k gamble with an added £10k bill if it is..real shame tbh
My heart says go on do it you only pass this way once and at 60, time is running out. I certainly do not want to start ownership at 65.
I would be surprised if at 60 you thrash the car enough to create a significant problem but equally around retirement age - large unexpected bills are to be avoided.
Your annual mileage is low - you will probably get away with it and if the engine lets go around 100K - it will be more saleable after a good rebuild.
My instinct would be buy and enjoy - as long as you understand the implications if you were very unlucky and can afford to get out of it without scrapping the car.
Baz
Your annual mileage is low - you will probably get away with it and if the engine lets go around 100K - it will be more saleable after a good rebuild.
My instinct would be buy and enjoy - as long as you understand the implications if you were very unlucky and can afford to get out of it without scrapping the car.
Baz
Can I just query a slightly ambiguous comment Hartech - when you suggest you are speaking to people every day who have experienced an engine failure in a 996 does this really mean that you are hearing about c. 5 failures every week (260 plus a year?).
I'm asking only as recent purchaser of a 2003 C2 (with the LN Engineering IMS upgrade fitted). I appreciate this nay be a commercially sensitive question.
I'm asking only as recent purchaser of a 2003 C2 (with the LN Engineering IMS upgrade fitted). I appreciate this nay be a commercially sensitive question.
hartech said:
You said - "The way the likes of Hartech promote themselves could certainly be criticised and the faithful worship at the altar of all things Hartech that can go on around here is often silly".
And "But if you think many if if any are doing pre-emptive £10k rebuilds at all let alone as a consequence of Hartech messaging then I think you've lost it a little bit!"
OK cmoose I can see a kind of ambiguity in your comment above and if your intentions were to support us I apologise I genuinely didn't read it that way.
Engine rebuilds rarely cost £10K (even with lots of future proofing) and the older cars tend to be better because they often have ferrous coated pistons and if the uncracked cylinders have the ovality reduced by us and fitted with support rings they can make a reliable rebuild at much lower cost.
Customers often decide to replace worn clutches and flywheels at the same time (which is obviously much cheaper) but can add up to a larger bill.
But if you were on our maintenance plan you would not only enjoy a very inexpensive way to run your car (for as long as you want to stay on the scheme with no age, mileage or cost limit) but if your engine needed a rebuild the labour (like with most repairs on the scheme) would be FOC and cost in very low single figure £K.
The difficulty with later engines is that the cylinder bores are best all replaced (still the customers choice) although they often already have the later IMS shaft with the larger IMS bearing.
Baz
Hi Baz, I would support Moose on this. The way I read it he was having a go at me, not you guys. I'm the one more likely to query HArtech's marketing actually. And "But if you think many if if any are doing pre-emptive £10k rebuilds at all let alone as a consequence of Hartech messaging then I think you've lost it a little bit!"
OK cmoose I can see a kind of ambiguity in your comment above and if your intentions were to support us I apologise I genuinely didn't read it that way.
Engine rebuilds rarely cost £10K (even with lots of future proofing) and the older cars tend to be better because they often have ferrous coated pistons and if the uncracked cylinders have the ovality reduced by us and fitted with support rings they can make a reliable rebuild at much lower cost.
Customers often decide to replace worn clutches and flywheels at the same time (which is obviously much cheaper) but can add up to a larger bill.
But if you were on our maintenance plan you would not only enjoy a very inexpensive way to run your car (for as long as you want to stay on the scheme with no age, mileage or cost limit) but if your engine needed a rebuild the labour (like with most repairs on the scheme) would be FOC and cost in very low single figure £K.
The difficulty with later engines is that the cylinder bores are best all replaced (still the customers choice) although they often already have the later IMS shaft with the larger IMS bearing.
Baz
Thanks for that cmoose - I've apologised and meant it - hope you are happy with that.
You won't realise (I guess) what a lot we put up with when people that clearly don't know enough make statements that are completely wrong but can affect our future.
Because I in particular spend so much time patiently trying to answer the same things again and again - only then to be criticised and having to explain further until nothing eventually comes back - I am beginning to try and cut short what I read as unfair criticism by getting gin earlier and more to the point.
I am also really busy on important projects and technical issues at Hartech but cannot ignore it when I read something I think needs answering. I wish some others could chip in but we seem to be the only ones trying to answer professionally - and it takes a lot of time, provides ammunition for competitors that they didn't research, test or understand and I find myself kind of trapped in the position of an expert that to many seem fair game to have a go at - taking up more and more time.
I end up speed reading anything relevant and trying to respond quickly whenever I can and yes I sometimes get the wrong end of the stick (as it seems in this case).
I am sorry if my frustration boils over sometimes.
We have a plan to solve this dilemma - an I have re-written the whole original engine part of the buyers guide in a much shorter version with up to date llnks to click into for those seeking a deeper understanding. This is completed now and I am attaching relevant photos and then afterwards (later in the year) short video clips.
The idea is to answer as many queries and questions as possible by reference to specific parts of that system before having to repeat stuff on Internet sites and on the phone.
When finished it will ay least give me time back but of course right now it has increased my workload a lot and reduced the time I have available to answer questions and/or defend ourselves if and when it seems needed.
We have started with a short video (www.hartech.org) that shows a lot of the things we discuss on here including scored pistons - different piston coatings, our Nikasil alloy cylinders (and how they are I believe the only ones located at the top by a machined reference to the outside of the cylinder block) and other things I hope are of interest.
There always seems to be too much to do but I will try and continue with advice where requested and try to read your posts more thoroughly and understand them better before responding.
Baz
You won't realise (I guess) what a lot we put up with when people that clearly don't know enough make statements that are completely wrong but can affect our future.
Because I in particular spend so much time patiently trying to answer the same things again and again - only then to be criticised and having to explain further until nothing eventually comes back - I am beginning to try and cut short what I read as unfair criticism by getting gin earlier and more to the point.
I am also really busy on important projects and technical issues at Hartech but cannot ignore it when I read something I think needs answering. I wish some others could chip in but we seem to be the only ones trying to answer professionally - and it takes a lot of time, provides ammunition for competitors that they didn't research, test or understand and I find myself kind of trapped in the position of an expert that to many seem fair game to have a go at - taking up more and more time.
I end up speed reading anything relevant and trying to respond quickly whenever I can and yes I sometimes get the wrong end of the stick (as it seems in this case).
I am sorry if my frustration boils over sometimes.
We have a plan to solve this dilemma - an I have re-written the whole original engine part of the buyers guide in a much shorter version with up to date llnks to click into for those seeking a deeper understanding. This is completed now and I am attaching relevant photos and then afterwards (later in the year) short video clips.
The idea is to answer as many queries and questions as possible by reference to specific parts of that system before having to repeat stuff on Internet sites and on the phone.
When finished it will ay least give me time back but of course right now it has increased my workload a lot and reduced the time I have available to answer questions and/or defend ourselves if and when it seems needed.
We have started with a short video (www.hartech.org) that shows a lot of the things we discuss on here including scored pistons - different piston coatings, our Nikasil alloy cylinders (and how they are I believe the only ones located at the top by a machined reference to the outside of the cylinder block) and other things I hope are of interest.
There always seems to be too much to do but I will try and continue with advice where requested and try to read your posts more thoroughly and understand them better before responding.
Baz
Baz,
I'm pretty sure that most M96/M97-engined Porsche owners are very happy to have guys like Hartech looking for long-term solutions for our engines. I know for sure that I am.
We don't really like to be reminded of critical deficiencies in the engines too often (it does temper enjoyment of the car a bit, expecting it to blow up!), but it's nice to know that there are (better, cheaper) fixes available outside of the expensive OPC network.
Cheers.
I'm pretty sure that most M96/M97-engined Porsche owners are very happy to have guys like Hartech looking for long-term solutions for our engines. I know for sure that I am.
We don't really like to be reminded of critical deficiencies in the engines too often (it does temper enjoyment of the car a bit, expecting it to blow up!), but it's nice to know that there are (better, cheaper) fixes available outside of the expensive OPC network.
Cheers.
Just for the record, I really like and admire Hartech. I don't know a whole lot about them but their passion for engineering really shines through. A real love of metal and oil and mechanical bits that I envy in some ways. Real authentic British engineering of yore kind of thing. On that engineering side of things, I bow down before Hartech. And I don't question their integrity in the slightest. But I do have huge reservations about some aspects of how they interact with the Porsche community (innocent and unknowing)
g7jhp said:
Sine Metu said:
You could unfortunately be one of the 99% of people who miss out on the internet death. But you should still drop a few grand with Hartech anyway jus to share the pain. Do a pre-emptive rebuild or something, anything so as not to feel left out.
Why???If it's not broken.....drive it!
Besides, I don't believe it's cost effective to do preventative maintenance for bore score/ d-chunk.
($$$$$ for preventative maintenance vs $$$$$$$ for a full rebuild with same upgrades).
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