996 Buying Advice
Discussion
hartech said:
No one forces anyone to read what we post nor become our customer - and almost all that we post is in direct response to a question to us from someone seeking an answer - which we always do our best to provide a comprehensive answer to and are unique in taking the time and making the effort to do so.
..and in the twisted world of the internet, that's sadly seen as self publicity!In the 2+ years I was a Hartech maintenance plan customer, they were always very helpful, knowledgeable and honest, and they always had plenty of work on with no need for any fancy (or underhand, as has been occasionally suggested on here) marketing campaigns and techniques.
Thanks for the support guys!
Here we go again.
Purely to answer the questions.
Yes "D" chunking or cylinders cracking is probably the most likely failure in early engines.
Now the advert about what we can do about it - We machine out the cracked or "D"
ed cylinder and replace it with a Nikasil alloy closed deck alternative.
That leaves the other "oval" cylinders vulnerable to follow the damaged one.
Now to explain a solution that could also be regarded as promotion or marketing. We can fit new cylinders to some or all other cylindes or as an alternative we can re-round the existing bores (reducing the existing ovality) and fit precision machined support rings to stop them going oval again and prevent any more cracking or "D" chunking effectively converting the block to a closed deck design - and I think we are the only business offering this option. If the remaining pistons are ferrous coated and still ok then this re-rounding can be a good and lower cost alternative - but never as good as the more expensive replacement of all the Lokasil cylinders.
My question to you all is this. In answering this question - is it better to also explain what can be done about it by us or to leave owners with a "D" chunked engine not realising what options are available or from whom? What possible harm can we have done by explaining the above?
There are alternative solutions and surely it is up to those that provide them to similarly answer for themselves and not us to do it for them when we think our provision is the best. If they did it would enable the comparison between how we do it and them to be exposed without our involvement by contributors asking questions - like - do your liners close the deck and support the cylinders (for example). The lack of other contributions is often a sign that such providers don't want to get involved in a debate - but that it their choice.
When we know of some provisions that do not work well (as a result of doing the job again properly) what should we do then - leave unsuspecting potential customers to be persuaded by others that what they do is perfectly OK (when we know it often is not) and just wait for the poor owner to have to do it all over again - or explain - technically why we think our solutions are better - still leaving the customer to make their own mind up?
Of course explaining what we do informs people and is therefore a little like an advert - but what is better for the customer seeking advice - no information (leaving them disadvantaged in making decisions) or well informed by people prepared to answer and try and explain issues honestly and from a professional background and having carried out extensive research, testing and development?
I think "banging on about it" is better than no information at all and the questions raised weekly demonstrate that despite all the posts owners still often start out knowing very little and getting confused and miss-informed - and tat cannot be a goo thing for their choices of the best options for themselves.
To be fair to us we always try to explain it is a rare occurrence and that they are great cars - but the engines do have weaknesses and we do offer solutions.
It is interesting that many that now suggest less posts about the problems would be beneficial also have a good understanding of the issues and solutions - thanks to the previous technical posts they have read. New owners and potential owners pop up all the time without that background and starting all over again and for them the "repeats" must be valuable.
Finally - our experience is that the original double row bearing is not better than the single row replacement - but about the same. I know the USA legal case came up with different figures but there are other factors that could have affected that and we think all of the small bearings and options available have much less life than the larger bearing that followed - but in all cases removing the seal is a good idea.
Your feedback on the main topic above would be interesting.
Baz
Here we go again.
Purely to answer the questions.
Yes "D" chunking or cylinders cracking is probably the most likely failure in early engines.
Now the advert about what we can do about it - We machine out the cracked or "D"
ed cylinder and replace it with a Nikasil alloy closed deck alternative.That leaves the other "oval" cylinders vulnerable to follow the damaged one.
Now to explain a solution that could also be regarded as promotion or marketing. We can fit new cylinders to some or all other cylindes or as an alternative we can re-round the existing bores (reducing the existing ovality) and fit precision machined support rings to stop them going oval again and prevent any more cracking or "D" chunking effectively converting the block to a closed deck design - and I think we are the only business offering this option. If the remaining pistons are ferrous coated and still ok then this re-rounding can be a good and lower cost alternative - but never as good as the more expensive replacement of all the Lokasil cylinders.
My question to you all is this. In answering this question - is it better to also explain what can be done about it by us or to leave owners with a "D" chunked engine not realising what options are available or from whom? What possible harm can we have done by explaining the above?
There are alternative solutions and surely it is up to those that provide them to similarly answer for themselves and not us to do it for them when we think our provision is the best. If they did it would enable the comparison between how we do it and them to be exposed without our involvement by contributors asking questions - like - do your liners close the deck and support the cylinders (for example). The lack of other contributions is often a sign that such providers don't want to get involved in a debate - but that it their choice.
When we know of some provisions that do not work well (as a result of doing the job again properly) what should we do then - leave unsuspecting potential customers to be persuaded by others that what they do is perfectly OK (when we know it often is not) and just wait for the poor owner to have to do it all over again - or explain - technically why we think our solutions are better - still leaving the customer to make their own mind up?
Of course explaining what we do informs people and is therefore a little like an advert - but what is better for the customer seeking advice - no information (leaving them disadvantaged in making decisions) or well informed by people prepared to answer and try and explain issues honestly and from a professional background and having carried out extensive research, testing and development?
I think "banging on about it" is better than no information at all and the questions raised weekly demonstrate that despite all the posts owners still often start out knowing very little and getting confused and miss-informed - and tat cannot be a goo thing for their choices of the best options for themselves.
To be fair to us we always try to explain it is a rare occurrence and that they are great cars - but the engines do have weaknesses and we do offer solutions.
It is interesting that many that now suggest less posts about the problems would be beneficial also have a good understanding of the issues and solutions - thanks to the previous technical posts they have read. New owners and potential owners pop up all the time without that background and starting all over again and for them the "repeats" must be valuable.
Finally - our experience is that the original double row bearing is not better than the single row replacement - but about the same. I know the USA legal case came up with different figures but there are other factors that could have affected that and we think all of the small bearings and options available have much less life than the larger bearing that followed - but in all cases removing the seal is a good idea.
Your feedback on the main topic above would be interesting.
Baz
Assuming the main topic is your contributions to this forum my view is:
You provide invaluable technical knowledge and have a lot of experience in fixing three issues so can actually provide hard data to counter the internet hype that all or engines go boom.
They are not stupid and know by contribuing it raises their profile, but they also have to deal with and defend themselves from unwarranted accusations like above.
I hope they continue to contribute and add insight
You provide invaluable technical knowledge and have a lot of experience in fixing three issues so can actually provide hard data to counter the internet hype that all or engines go boom.
They are not stupid and know by contribuing it raises their profile, but they also have to deal with and defend themselves from unwarranted accusations like above.
I hope they continue to contribute and add insight
Edited by Adam B on Friday 28th August 08:40
My '98 3.4 C2 manual is now on 132K with top end rebuild (by Hartech) at 85k. I'm trying not to lose any sleep & just warm it up gently & then use all of the revs & for proper journeys, rather than pootling around town!
Over a recent 600 mile trip, the oil level dropped from the top of the dash indicator by 2 bars but then doesn't seem to drop any further over the subsequent 1000 miles.
Engine sounds sweet & mechanically quiet, so I'm just going to carry on using it properly & try not to worry!
Car is fab to drive with the steering as the standout feature for me.
Just to add, my car is now registered on Hartech's Maintenance Plan, as it has been with the previous 2 owners for the last 10 years. For me, it was about some piece of mind along with maintaining some of the history & provenance of the car.
Over a recent 600 mile trip, the oil level dropped from the top of the dash indicator by 2 bars but then doesn't seem to drop any further over the subsequent 1000 miles.
Engine sounds sweet & mechanically quiet, so I'm just going to carry on using it properly & try not to worry!
Car is fab to drive with the steering as the standout feature for me.
Just to add, my car is now registered on Hartech's Maintenance Plan, as it has been with the previous 2 owners for the last 10 years. For me, it was about some piece of mind along with maintaining some of the history & provenance of the car.
Edited by appletonn on Friday 28th August 08:59
hartech said:
My question to you all is this. In answering this question - is it better to also explain what can be done about it by us or to leave owners with a "D" chunked engine not realising what options are available or from whom? What possible harm can we have done by explaining the above?
I think it's inevitable that you will get some questions and some criticisms about motives - let's face it it's almost impossible to post anything on PH without getting some stick!I think you should actually completely ignore it and not even answer the people who are critical of your motives. Just keep on posting the good stuff about engines and how you fix it! Don't get drawn into the debate.
HTH and keep up the good work.
Bert
Thanks Bert, good advice.
The problem I have is when (as is often the case) someone else makes a statement (often with full confident belief) that is actually completely wrong and is perhaps the opposite of what I have posted (therefore is effectively a criticism). If I ignore it the general public may assume the other contributor is right - hence me keeping quiet and then that will be read by others and before long the "truth" will become the incorrect explanation - and our research and technical information will be discredited!
A good example was the third radiator which was posted as a bore scoring solution. Then when I explained it could make things worse without a control flow device here were arguments - but eventually - because I kept explaining it (and tested the actual performance differences to prove it) the right understanding prevailed.
I agree my life would be better to just post what I have understood and not take the bait - but I find it hard especially when some posts are so misleading or pure marketing with poor solutions.
Baz
The problem I have is when (as is often the case) someone else makes a statement (often with full confident belief) that is actually completely wrong and is perhaps the opposite of what I have posted (therefore is effectively a criticism). If I ignore it the general public may assume the other contributor is right - hence me keeping quiet and then that will be read by others and before long the "truth" will become the incorrect explanation - and our research and technical information will be discredited!
A good example was the third radiator which was posted as a bore scoring solution. Then when I explained it could make things worse without a control flow device here were arguments - but eventually - because I kept explaining it (and tested the actual performance differences to prove it) the right understanding prevailed.
I agree my life would be better to just post what I have understood and not take the bait - but I find it hard especially when some posts are so misleading or pure marketing with poor solutions.
Baz
appletonn said:
Over a recent 600 mile trip, the oil level dropped from the top of the dash indicator by 2 bars but then doesn't seem to drop any further over the subsequent 1000 miles.
My car hasn't used any oil in 4000 miles, but my digital dash gauge seems to guess at the oil level! It's often showing 1 bar - I ignore it entirely and just use the dipstick. monthefish said:
My car hasn't used any oil in 4000 miles, but my digital dash gauge seems to guess at the oil level! It's often showing 1 bar - I ignore it entirely and just use the dipstick.
Yep, me too as the 2 bar drop that the gauge showed actually translated into only a tiny drop on the dipstick & then nothing since! Accuracy obvious varies with oil temp too. No blue smoke either at cold start or when hot & driven hard on the road (had my old man following behind!) & no drips on the garage floor, so nothing too concerning, he says...! Gassing Station | 911/Carrera GT | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff