Driving a large steam locomotive....
Discussion
One thing that has always struck me, is when driving a large steam locomotive, such as The Flying Scotsman, Mallard or Evening Star, on the footplate, the driver has a very limited view of the road "track" ahead, looking through a tiny piece of glass sticking out the side, even then they are sometimes chatting to the fireman, not even looking, yet the train could be traveling at 90mph.
There could be an old pram on the track dumped by kids, or even a car stuck on a level crossing.
At least with a modern diesel or electric train the driver gets a full uninterrupted view of the track ahead.
I understand the train "steers" itself, and probably the only requirement is to see the signals ahead, but it seems to me a bit like driving a car with a frozen windscreen and a peephole the size of a 50p coin.
This clip illustrates what I mean.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHuYeYttBb8
Opinions?
There could be an old pram on the track dumped by kids, or even a car stuck on a level crossing.
At least with a modern diesel or electric train the driver gets a full uninterrupted view of the track ahead.
I understand the train "steers" itself, and probably the only requirement is to see the signals ahead, but it seems to me a bit like driving a car with a frozen windscreen and a peephole the size of a 50p coin.
This clip illustrates what I mean.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHuYeYttBb8
Opinions?
If you think the train is mad, try a plane that has no front screen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piQ7DZj_axk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piQ7DZj_axk
ks in the Viz. well done! cjs racing. said:
If you think the train is mad, try a plane that has no front screen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piQ7DZj_axk
Well, I never knew that!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piQ7DZj_axk
Carl-H said:
I'm guessing the driver would know the route pretty well and be anticipating signals and level crossings. Anything else there's not much he can do anyway once he's already going.
Loco crew 'sign' the route to say they are fully aware of the route and the stations, crossings, gradients, PSRs, signals etc. The view ahead from a steam locomotive is restrictive in some ways (the boiler gets in the way which is why the fireman is also responsible for keeping a sharp lookout from his side of the cab), but obstructions on the line are largely only seen when it is too late. A steam loco weighing around 120 tons with a trailing load of say, 400 tons will take around a mile to stop from 75mph, therefore minor obstructions (a trolley on the track for example) won't be seen until it's too late. Larger obstructions (say a car on a level crossing) might be seen earlier, but only if the track is straight for a sufficient distance before the crossing. In my yoof I had a cab ride in a black 5 on a preserved railway and in a class 86 from New Street to Birmingham International.
The difference in visibility was night and day but as said the common factor is that there would be very little the driver could do if there was an obstruction.
The difference in visibility was night and day but as said the common factor is that there would be very little the driver could do if there was an obstruction.
SWTH said:
The view ahead from a steam locomotive is restrictive in some ways (the boiler gets in the way which is why the fireman is also responsible for keeping a sharp lookout from his side of the cab)
Perhaps a modern take on the steam engine would have the cab in front of the boiler...? But as you say all it would do is give the crew a better view of the crash.Default stopping distance on the railway is a mile and a quarter. That's why it's the distance you need to walk in order to lay emergency protection for your train in the event of an accident. On anything other than straight track, if you can see it... you probably ain't stopping! Plus with a several hundred tonne train, whatever you do hit is likely to come off worst. This is why chucking yourself in front of a train is such a constantly fashionable means of suicide.
The driver in theory doesn't even need to see the signals; there'll be an audible/visual signal in the cab that tells him whether the next signal is "off" (green) or some kind of cautionary aspect. Route knowledge becomes almost supernatural; old drivers will know where they are even in the fog by the different sound the track makes over bridges and suchlike.
The driver in theory doesn't even need to see the signals; there'll be an audible/visual signal in the cab that tells him whether the next signal is "off" (green) or some kind of cautionary aspect. Route knowledge becomes almost supernatural; old drivers will know where they are even in the fog by the different sound the track makes over bridges and suchlike.
My dad was a mainline fireman in the last years of the Southern Railway. He regularly fired and drove the Bulleid pacifics. His stories were fantastic. Some drivers tried to in modern parlance - v-max - the locos whenever the opportunity presented and he said that they often topped the speedo at 100mph and had no real idea how fast they were going.
As you say belting along at 100mph with the engine bucking and weaving along victorian rails, soot and ash hitting you in the face, desperately trying to keep up with the coal demand of the fire. Unable to hear each other except when shouting at the top of your lungs. In winter a raging fire but freezing wind, in summer a raging fire and heat.
He said they used to pull into some stations for a short break and literally dive into the platform pub down three of four pints and then back on it.
He had a pretty exciting life with lots of travel and adventure but to him NOTING compared to those days of steam and I think he was literally in mourning for the death of mainline steam. He had little patience for preserved lines and speed limits.
When he died I was invited to release his ashes into the fire of a loco. The draw from the fire is so great that the ashes lift up from the shovel and fly up into the fire like magic. He'd have loved it.
As you say belting along at 100mph with the engine bucking and weaving along victorian rails, soot and ash hitting you in the face, desperately trying to keep up with the coal demand of the fire. Unable to hear each other except when shouting at the top of your lungs. In winter a raging fire but freezing wind, in summer a raging fire and heat.
He said they used to pull into some stations for a short break and literally dive into the platform pub down three of four pints and then back on it.
He had a pretty exciting life with lots of travel and adventure but to him NOTING compared to those days of steam and I think he was literally in mourning for the death of mainline steam. He had little patience for preserved lines and speed limits.
When he died I was invited to release his ashes into the fire of a loco. The draw from the fire is so great that the ashes lift up from the shovel and fly up into the fire like magic. He'd have loved it.
When he died I was invited to release his ashes into the fire of a loco. The draw from the fire is so great that the ashes lift up from the shovel and fly up into the fire like magic. He'd have loved it.
That's how I want to go too. I have even chosen the piece of track. Luckily, steam trains still run on it.
That's how I want to go too. I have even chosen the piece of track. Luckily, steam trains still run on it.
mrmaggit said:
When he died I was invited to release his ashes into the fire of a loco. The draw from the fire is so great that the ashes lift up from the shovel and fly up into the fire like magic. He'd have loved it.
That's how I want to go too. I have even chosen the piece of track. Luckily, steam trains still run on it.
Can't they put you into the fire whole and then you can help power the train? That's how I want to go too. I have even chosen the piece of track. Luckily, steam trains still run on it.
Wacky Racer said:
In my will, it states my ashes are to be thrown off the top of Ribblehead Viaduct.
Make sure you don't stand on them........
You'd be in good company, it's said that around 100 men died just building it.Make sure you don't stand on them........
Make sure they drop them off the right side too, I remember reading a tale about a worker who lost his flat cap over the side, it blew under the arches and back up the other side where he caught it.
Simpo Two said:
Perhaps a modern take on the steam engine would have the cab in front of the boiler...? But as you say all it would do is give the crew a better view of the crash.
Already been done in one form or another:
Obviously this arrangement made conventional coal firing impossible so these were oil-fired.
The Southern Railway's concept for a cab-forward steam loco:
O. V. S. Bullied's 'Leader'. This was a coal-fired machine with the driver in the cab at the outer end (it had a driving cab at each end to eliminate having to turn the engine), and the fireman in a cab in the middle between the boiler and bunker. Unsurprisingly, conditions on the firemans footplate were somewhat warm, as was the drivers cab at the smokebox end. 5 were ordered but only one was finished - the second machine was almost finished but never turned a wheel in anger, and the other three were in various stages of construction. The project was scrapped after three years due to design defects and the need for considerable remedial works to sort the problems encountered in trials with the first machine.
There was one final attempt to revive steam in the 1980s, this was the ACE 3000 project in the US. With a ready source of fuel there was some interest in whether steam had a place hauling coal trains for American Coal Enterprises, rather than diesels using (at the time) expensive imported oil.
Plenty of information on the ACE 3000 (and other advanced steam projects) can be found here.
I would really love to see a modern "replica" of the Leader built (just like they did with the A1 Tornado) just to show off how it was supposed to work and see if it did have any advantages over other steam designs. A definite re-design of the fireman's cab would be needed though as the heat and flame in there would be untenable to work in, and what if in an accident the loco fell over onto that side? The fireman would be, quite literally, toast.
As for the OP's question, that's why trainee engine crews had to learn the routes in advance and why drivers and firemen mostly began their footplate careers on shunting engines - they could learn how the engines worked on those jobs, then the other aspects of track working could be taught alongside before they were passed to work the main lines.
Also, Olf - that is a really lovely story, I'd never thought of the possibility of someone getting a send-off that way!
As for the OP's question, that's why trainee engine crews had to learn the routes in advance and why drivers and firemen mostly began their footplate careers on shunting engines - they could learn how the engines worked on those jobs, then the other aspects of track working could be taught alongside before they were passed to work the main lines.
Also, Olf - that is a really lovely story, I'd never thought of the possibility of someone getting a send-off that way!
marksx said:
cjs racing. said:
If you think the train is mad, try a plane that has no front screen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piQ7DZj_axk
Well, I never knew that!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piQ7DZj_axk
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